Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[edjbox]

Jacksonville makes sense since FEC already goes there. Not sure about Tampa though- which tracks would they use?

 

[jis]

New track along the median of I-4.

 

[Anderson]

I think FEC has said they want to do Jacksonville first...probably because even if it wouldn't be free (there would presumably be some additional tracks to lay, stations and what have you), it would still be far cheaper than Tampa. In theory, AAF could probably put some ADA-capable platforms in at JAX and a few other stations and start service in the space of a few weeks if they had the equipment (obviously, a bunch of EIS stuff would actually be at issue and the aforementioned track issues arise, but dropping 2-3 trains per day on the line should be doable given current traffic loads for FEC).

The bottom line, though, is that FEC has had to take out somewhere in the range of $1.5-2.0bn in loans (at least) to make this work, and Tampa would probably be another $1.5-2.0bn on top of that, while Jacksonville should be far less.

 

[cirdan]

I think FEC has said they want to do Jacksonville first...probably because even if it wouldn't be free (there would presumably be some additional tracks to lay, stations and what have you), it would still be far cheaper than Tampa. In theory, AAF could probably put some ADA-capable platforms in at JAX and a few other stations and start service in the space of a few weeks if they had the equipment (obviously, a bunch of EIS stuff would actually be at issue and the aforementioned track issues arise, but dropping 2-3 trains per day on the line should be doable given current traffic loads for FEC).

The bottom line, though, is that FEC has had to take out somewhere in the range of $1.5-2.0bn in loans (at least) to make this work, and Tampa would probably be another $1.5-2.0bn on top of that, while Jacksonville should be far less.

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but double tracking does not purely benefit the passenger service as it also benefits their freight business, even if just as a collaterally unintended benefit.

An entirely new line would probably not see much (if any) freight and thus the ROI would have to be fully generated by passenger operations. This puts it in a higher risk bracket.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Another piece of the puzzle falls in place today as it is announced that Tele-Vic will supply the onboard infotainment system for the Siemens train cars:

http://www.televic-rail.com/en/AAF

http://www.televic-rail.com/en/iCoM

This same system will be installed on the new Calgary light rail cars being built by Siemens as well. Looks like AAF will definitely not be like anything Amtrak has!

 

[jis]

It is starting to look like AAF will be more like Heathrow Express perhaps.

 

[Anderson]

This is a sincere question, but as someone who has never been to the UK (it's on the list...) is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[jis]

It's a good thing in my reckoning. Fast, reliable and efficient. The other characteristic, as in frequent - every 15 mins, does not apply to AAF.

 

[neroden]

I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.

The key question for tie choice is, in fact, climate.

Wood ties are terrible in Florida's wet, hot, salty weather. Concrete is actually pretty bad in Florida too, but wood is much worse.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/

How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL

 

[Anderson]

Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/

How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL

It sounds like AAF's attitude is that they're willing to seriously look at adding stops if the counties are willing to make the first move. Of course, I suspect that Brevard has had a bit more constructive behind-the-scenes dialogue than the other counties have. As always, there's undoubtedly stuff going on that we're not party to.

 

[jis]

Looks like the space coast TPO has authorized a study to determine the best location for a new AAF station site in Brevard. However, they have not determined who will pay to build and maintain (staff?) the building. Seems like Brevard is serious about getting their own stop. Good for them!

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2015/02/12/planners-study-brevard-high-speed-rail-station-sites/23291327/

How different Brevard is from the crazy people one or two counties south of them are! LOL

Suffice it to say that took some amount of footwork to make it so. Fortunately north Brevard officials are believers. Some recalcitrant south Brevard folks had to be somehow dragged along.

 

[Guest]

I'm not real smart in this area, but I would think that for freight, wood would be preferred as it has an element of flexibility under load, whereas you put too much weight on concrete, it cracks.

The key question for tie choice is, in fact, climate.

Wood ties are terrible in Florida's wet, hot, salty weather. Concrete is actually pretty bad in Florida too, but wood is much worse.

Both can be designed for the climate and traffic. A properly treated wood tie can last 30 years or more in Florida. This is proven. The nominal design life of a concrete tie is 50 years, but none have made it that long yet. This is not yet proven.

 

[neroden]

Guest: In Florida's climate, even properly treated wood ties do not last 30 years under high tonnage. (Low tonnage, yes.) I've read a fair number of survey articles regarding this. If you believe otherwise, you need to provide citations: otherwise, yes, I'm calling you a liar.

Basically concrete ties are expected to last 1.8 times as long as wooden ties in wet climates. Wooden ties last much longer in dry climates, so concrete ties last only about 1.2 times as long. This makes the economics different.

It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days, and creosote treatment is coming under more and more criticism due to its toxicity. Untreated or lightly treated wood ties last well in dry and cold zones, and fall apart very quickly in Florida.

The economics points towards wood ties on most lines in the US, but the Florida climate is different: by most estimates of levelized lifetime costs, concrete ties are cheaper.

 

[PRR 60]

Guest: In Florida's climate, even properly treated wood ties do not last 30 years under high tonnage. (Low tonnage, yes.) I've read a fair number of survey articles regarding this. If you believe otherwise, you need to provide citations: otherwise, yes, I'm calling you a liar.

Basically concrete ties are expected to last 1.8 times as long as wooden ties in wet climates. Wooden ties last much longer in dry climates, so concrete ties last only about 1.2 times as long. This makes the economics different.

It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days, and creosote treatment is coming under more and more criticism due to its toxicity. Untreated or lightly treated wood ties last well in dry and cold zones, and fall apart very quickly in Florida.

The economics points towards wood ties on most lines in the US, but the Florida climate is different: by most estimates of levelized lifetime costs, concrete ties are cheaper.

Calling someone a "liar" because maybe their assertion is wrong is more than a little harsh, don't you think?

 

[cirdan]

It's a good thing in my reckoning. Fast, reliable and efficient.

And goes to Paddington which really is the heart of London and where all the tourists and business people want to be.

(sorry, being cynical)

Of course once Crossrail is complete, this will change totally.

 

[cirdan]

It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days,

I think not impossible, but just crazily expensive.

 

[Guest]

It's also impossible to get the hardwoods used in the old days,

I think not impossible, but just crazily expensive.

Talk to Norfolk Southern. This would be news to them.

 

[Brian_tampa]

FDOT to give SFRTA $21 million for construction of TriRail station platforms at AAF Miami station. This would really help out AAF by guaranteeing additional riders and better connectivity for more locations served by the TriRail network. Total cost is estimated to be about $69 million for the whole route including track work. This shows that the state government of Florida is still very much in favor of supporting commuter rail in S FL as well as AAF. I do think this will happen, as the other three government entities that will fund it should be able to contribute the rest without any problems. The only issue is the time frame - less than 2 months for government to decide!

I am sure AAF would be willing to relent a bit if it seems likely that support for the funding will eventually pass even if the deadline passes. This is too important for AAF to take a hard line on insisting funding be finalized so quickly.

In other news, CARE put out a completely biased economic report the other day. The whole premise is based on incorrect assumptions of costs. They claimed the rail part would cost $3.1 billion when all the numbers I have heard say $1.5 billion. The economist used the inflated number to claim that AAF will fail and not be able to pay off the debt from such a large loan.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article10716959.html#tabs-b0710947-1-tabPane-2

Quote:

According to City of Miami officials, the Florida Department of Transportation has agreed to pump $21 million into the project, leaving Tri-Rail with a $48 million hole to fill.

Alice Bravo, Miami's deputy city manager, said she met with a Tri-Rail representative Wednesday. She said the public funding being discussed, if it flies, would involve funds from the CRA, with a percentage also supplied by the city and county, which also would receive a small percentage of property taxes contributed by the Miami-Orlando train project.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article10716959.html#tabs-b0710947-1-tabPane-2#storylink=cpy

 

[cirdan]

FDOT to give SFRTA $21 million for construction of TriRail station platforms at AAF Miami station.

It seems to me that $21 million for an entirely new station in a prime downtown location that is not even on an active rail line is very good value for money.

Atlanta for example is looking at many times that figure for its proposed new station.

 

[jis]

AFAICT all that needs to be done is building a low level platform for TriRail trains in space that is already allocated for such in the design. Indeed, Very good and efficient use of money. It would have been a pity if they did not come up with this money.

 

[Brian_tampa]

The $21 million as far as I know will not cover the whole cost of the station platforms and related areas. I recall that the station portion itself was estimated to cost around $40 million according to news reports back over last summer. The other $29 million would be for track and other infrastructure improvements. I would assume the 5 block long viaduct would require widening to allow for several more approach tracks. And for installing PTC along the branch to the Hialeah yards from the mainline junction to the CSX (SFRTA) rail crossing at Iris where FDOT is building a new connection in the NE quadrant using TIGER grant money awarded back in 2013.

I guess the biggest shocker for me is that the Scott administration, which at one time wanted to defund Tri-rail completely, is now spending money for its expansion! Could this be part of their overall support of AAF more so than for helping Tri-rail? I am beginning to believe that the Scott administration really wants to see AAF succeed. Perhaps it is, in part, to blunt the widespread criticism of him for rejecting HSR funds back in 2011? Then he could say at the end of his term as governor that private business succeeded in running a higher speed passenger rail service without using billions of tax money. I would not be surprised to see Gov Scott aboard the first run of an AAF train and use it politically in early 2017!

 

[jis]

Brian, whatever the convoluted reason is for Gov Scott to be on board with AAF, it does help to blunt the ridiculous nonsense that all his ardent supporters in Indian River and Martin County are indulging in. Can you imagine what would have happened if Gov Scott helped those morons instead?

 

[Brian_tampa]

jis,

I would hate to imagine. I would think that the Orlando intermodal station would not have been funded and the lease that AAF has with FDOT for the eastern half of the beachline expressway probably would have never been done without major concessions elsewhere (such as through the treasure coast area) on AAF's part.

By the way, I looked at the 2014 elections and IRC, SLC, and Martin county all voted for Scott by a margin of around 2% in each county. I would think that translates to there being an equal amount of dems and repubs in the opposition. My feeling is that the opposition is the usual NIMBY crap, business people with a vested interest (boat marinas etc...) funding the opposition, and local politicians stirring up the opposition for their own reasons (commissioner Bob Solari of IRC anyone?). If you read the local TC Palm you will know how that media outlet has definitely fanned the flames of opposition there!

The fact that after all of the stuff happening with AAF and the opposition to it on the treasure coast, that the governor's administration still supports AAF tells a lot. AAF will happen.

What did you think of the economic report that CARE put out a few days ago regarding AAF financial viability?

 

[jis]

On that all I can say is that I trust Gene Skorpowski more than I trust CARE. He actually has his skin, well entire career on line. There are some very fundamental erroneous assumptions on which the house that CARE built stands IMHO.