Cars to be rebuilt

[AlanB]

There are trains on the system running with Club-Dinettes and full-dinettes that really don't need them. For example, the Downeaster is a short run. There isn't much need for table seating on that train. Running it with a club-snack-coach car that has the BC section in one end, the snack bar, and coach seats in the other would increase capacity significantly.

AFAIK all full-dinettes only ply the NEC and baring a last minute BO Club-Dinnette, never venture outside the corridor. There might be a few that still run on certain routes out of Chicago, but I believe that Amtrak is trying to stop that, if they haven't done so already. So replacing them with a Club-Dinette or a cafe car with normal seating on both ends IMHO would not be a good idea, to many people use those tables.

Regarding the Downeaster, that train should retain its Club-dinette. Again, people do like the tables and the conductors use one table for their paperwork. I also suspect that NNEPRA would not be happy with another car. They weren't exactly thrilled when Amtrak stole all the Club-Dinette cars back during the Acela crisis, but that was both temporary and an emergency. This isn't.

Likewise, people have mentioned the Hiawatha. Yeah, Wisconsin doesn't pay for a food service car. But Amtrak runs the at-seat carts anyway. Perhaps they could (and will) experiment with the idea of a mid-train snack-coach instead. All you give up is a few seats, while greatly improving the selection and types of food available.

Amtrak runs the cart service, because that's what the states want and pay for. I rather doubt that the two states involved will pony up more money for a cafe car of any type. And frankly, assuming that the new bi-levels expected to be on order by year's end are planned to run on the Hiawatha route, I rather doubt that any changes would be made betweeen now and then.

 

[Reno89502]

So I am just throwing out this idea. If they are going to re-build or create new baggage cars, I have a idea of a item that they should include in the baggage cars. When I board the CZ in Reno to go over to the Bay Area, the lounge is always out of alot of food items, (Sometimes the diner is as well). I think they should incorporate some refrigerated food storage into the baggage cars. It doesn't take up much room, and it will cut down on the constant "Running Out" of food, thus, more happy and satisfied passengers!!

 

[AlanB]

So I am just throwing out this idea. If they are going to re-build or create new baggage cars, I have a idea of a item that they should include in the baggage cars. When I board the CZ in Reno to go over to the Bay Area, the lounge is always out of alot of food items, (Sometimes the diner is as well). I think they should incorporate some refrigerated food storage into the baggage cars. It doesn't take up much room, and it will cut down on the constant "Running Out" of food, thus, more happy and satisfied passengers!!

It's generally not a lack of storage space that leads to sold out items, it's the fact that they items simply aren't loaded onto the train in the first place. Some of the times it's simply just that someone overlooked something or that the commissary didn't have the item. But most of the issue is that Amtrak has simply determined that it doesn't pay to overload the cars with food. They try to predict how many of each item will be brought by the passengers on board from past years, and then load only a few extras above and beyond what has historically sold.

This is done for two reasons that I know of, one to keep things fresh and two, to keep costs down.

But again, it's not a lack of storage space that causes them to run out of items.

The Superliner dining car can carry enough food to go from DC to LA, and quite possibly start back to DC before running out of food because they couldn't carry any more. The single level diners carry far less, but then there are no single level dining cars that need to carry more than a day and a half's worth of meals.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There are trains on the system running with Club-Dinettes and full-dinettes that really don't need them. For example, the Downeaster is a short run. There isn't much need for table seating on that train. Running it with a club-snack-coach car that has the BC section in one end, the snack bar, and coach seats in the other would increase capacity significantly.

AFAIK all full-dinettes only ply the NEC and baring a last minute BO Club-Dinnette, never venture outside the corridor. There might be a few that still run on certain routes out of Chicago, but I believe that Amtrak is trying to stop that, if they haven't done so already. So replacing them with a Club-Dinette or a cafe car with normal seating on both ends IMHO would not be a good idea, to many people use those tables.

Regarding the Downeaster, that train should retain its Club-dinette. Again, people do like the tables and the conductors use one table for their paperwork. I also suspect that NNEPRA would not be happy with another car. They weren't exactly thrilled when Amtrak stole all the Club-Dinette cars back during the Acela crisis, but that was both temporary and an emergency. This isn't.

Likewise, people have mentioned the Hiawatha. Yeah, Wisconsin doesn't pay for a food service car. But Amtrak runs the at-seat carts anyway. Perhaps they could (and will) experiment with the idea of a mid-train snack-coach instead. All you give up is a few seats, while greatly improving the selection and types of food available.

Amtrak runs the cart service, because that's what the states want and pay for. I rather doubt that the two states involved will pony up more money for a cafe car of any type. And frankly, assuming that the new bi-levels expected to be on order by year's end are planned to run on the Hiawatha route, I rather doubt that any changes would be made betweeen now and then.

The Hiawatha food service is: 1) not paid for under 403(b)- Wisconsin doesn't pay them for it because it is 2) Profitable. There is no reason why they wouldn't play with adding a snack coach if they thought it might increase said profit.

 

[Trogdor]

There are several reasons why the Amfleet I cafe cars can not be full coaches. They have mechanical equipment, reinforcements, and so on that would make the conversion extraordinarily expensive and downright silly.
Now, here is what I think is actually the plan, and what I think Magliari was saying, is that they were planning on converting these cars to a layout similar to the original AmCafe layout- coach seats on both sides of the snack bar. I guess you could call that a "coach", and it would make more sense. After all, the snack bar doesn't take that much space, when you get down to it.

Mr. Magliari specifically said that the Amfleet I cafe cars were built identical to the coaches, and that the middle part of the car has slots where windows were plugged, and that they would remove those plugs and convert them to full-blown coaches.

But, I suppose you know more than he does. After all, you were at the meeting on Saturday and I was living in a dream world.

 

[Neil_M]

But, I suppose you know more than he does. After all, you were at the meeting on Saturday and I was living in a dream world.

That's not the point. GML knows best. Even if he doesn't!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Mr. Magliari specifically said that the Amfleet I cafe cars were built identical to the coaches, and that the middle part of the car has slots where windows were plugged, and that they would remove those plugs and convert them to full-blown coaches.
But, I suppose you know more than he does. After all, you were at the meeting on Saturday and I was living in a dream world.

Why are you taking my comment in such a negative light? I will re-explain myself. My comment was on the level of when I said to my guidance counsellor, "You must be mistaken, I couldn't have possibly gotten a 1580 on my SAT!"

If you say Mr. Maglieri said that with that degree of precision, I believe you heard him say that. If Mr. Maglieri said that, I believe he believes it. I continue to disbelieve Amtrak would do something so ridiculously short-sighted, but then again, this is Amtrak.

I'm incredulous, sufficiently so that I doubted what you were relaying was a completely accurate picture of what Amtrak is saying it is going to do. I'm not calling you a liar, and never was. I assume you've played the telephone game.

That's not the point. GML knows best. Even if he doesn't!

Ya know, you must be the sweetest person I've ever met. I know I'm an obnoxious, blunt, and very cocky a$$hole, but I don't go around picking on you. I'm not sure why you have the time or need to do so to me. Please knock it off. It's rather boorish.

 

[Trogdor]

I continue to disbelieve Amtrak would do something so ridiculously short-sighted, but then again, this is Amtrak.

I'm just curious, what is your background in railcar engineering or mechanical design?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have a minor in engineering from Rowan University. I study railcars on my own. I don't claim to be an expert on them. I was referring more to macro effects on the system with the comment you are quoting. Logistics, system utilization, and operations management IS my background.

 

[Neil_M]

Logistics, system utilization, and operations management IS my background.

Ah........

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

And what if extensions into Virginia require a few more cafe cars for the Northeast Regional?

The extensions are just that, extensions of existing Amtrak NEC trains, so they already have cafe cars.

I thought there was the potential that more Newport News frequencies and/or any Norfolk service at all might increase the number of Northeast Regional trainsets needed. (Norfok service southbound in the evening and northbound in the morning could be added without increasing the number of trainsets needed to meet the schedule if the Lynchburg extension weren't happening, but the Lynchburg extension does look quite likely.)

 

[MikefromCrete]

Since this thread is ostensibly about the cars being rebuilt, I'll mention that a lot of the Amfleets being rebuilt are actually Cafe cars (currently stored due to various incompatible interior configurations) that will be rebuilt as coaches.

You must have mis-understood. They are not going to convert food service cars to coaches. It would be stupid on so many levels, I don't know where to begin.

I was also at the Midwest High Speed Rail Association meeting on Saturday where Marc Magliani, Amtrak's spokesman for the middle of the country, was one of the speakers. He clearly said that the mothballed Amfleet cars, most of which are now food service cars, would be converted to coaches. He said that when built, the food service cars had spaces for windows in the middle that were covered up. Apparently Amtrak plans to put windows in those covered up spaces and convert the cars to full coaches. There are a number of Midwestern train lines that could be started soon (Chicago-Dubuque, Chicago-Moline and on to Iowa City and Chicago to Peoria), but no spare coaches are available. Additional coaches are also needed at busy times on the other Chicago-based routes. Now, I assume that food service cars would be needed also, but the list posted earlier by Al B showed that there was an abundance of food service cars in the stored fleet, but only a handful of coaches, so it would make sense to remodel most of these cars in coaches, which are in short supply.

In three years or so, when the new double-deck corridor cars are ready, the Amfleet cars can be sent back to the corridor and the Horizon cars can be sent some place warm where snow won't be an issue.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Horizon cars can be sent some place warm where snow won't be an issue.

Yeah, like hell.

Er, I mean New Jersey, with the rest of the Comet cars, doing commuter service- where they belong.

 

[MattW]

We'll take them here in Atlanta if just to get some semblance of commuter service going! (Yes, I'm the official straw-grasper of these boards!)

 

[printman2000]

(Yes, I'm the official straw-grasper of these boards!)

Hey, we have a club, welcome!

(I still have hope that Amarillo will get Amtrak service)

 

[MadManMoon]

Since this thread is ostensibly about the cars being rebuilt, I'll mention that a lot of the Amfleets being rebuilt are actually Cafe cars (currently stored due to various incompatible interior configurations) that will be rebuilt as coaches.

You must have mis-understood. They are not going to convert food service cars to coaches. It would be stupid on so many levels, I don't know where to begin.

No, he was not mistaken.

From Amtrak's own ARRA Project Summary Descriptions, page 68:

"1) Twenty (20) Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be converted to Amfleet I Coach Cars. During this process, the galley area will be removed, windows,

seating, heating, and air conditioning will be installed and the car floor plan will meet the standard Capstone configuration thereby increasing revenue

capacity. (Capstone: name given for this interior package enhancement which includes bathroom modules, wall and ceiling plastics, and a more

neutral color scheme)."

Here's the link to the subject PDF: ARRA Project Summary Descriptions

Here's the overall Amtrak site with all ARRA documents (see "ARRA Budget Documents"): Amtrak Reports - ARRA

What's more interesting is this little nugget from page 67: "Lake Shore Limited Route: 1 Viewliner Diner (8400) @ $1.634m." I wonder how effective the supportability will be for a one-off, unique car, unless they modify/upgrade the existing 8400 to the same conceptual configuration as the planned new order of Viewliner Diners.

 

[AlanB]

What's more interesting is this little nugget from page 67: "Lake Shore Limited Route: 1 Viewliner Diner (8400) @ $1.634m." I wonder how effective the supportability will be for a one-off, unique car, unless they modify/upgrade the existing 8400 to the same conceptual configuration as the planned new order of Viewliner Diners.

I'm guessing that after spending that much money on the original proto-type, that they will update it as much as possible to match the new diners. Especially since it's first supposed to serve as the model/living blue print for the new diners. And the shell of course pretty much matches the existing Viewliner fleet.

It's interesting though that they are going to spend money to bring that car out of mothballs, but not the two original proto-type sleepers. The first proto-type sleeper #2300 may be too far gone and too different also, but #2301 Eastern View later renumbered to 62091 ran in revenue service about 6 or 7 years ago, so it could in theory be rescued for a similar amount of money if not even less.

 

[Trogdor]

I, too, was wondering whether or not they planned to rebuild 62091. It's possible, though, that they cannibalized that car of any usable parts in order to keep the rest of the fleet running.

Also included in the stimulus plan is to return 15 P40s to service.

Further, there is a mention of using the Superliner diner-lounge cars on the Empire Builder. I'd heard rumors of this in the past, where they would send the Diner-Lounge to Portland, and the dining car and Sightseer Lounge to Seattle. They also plan to add a sleeper to the Empire Builder, meaning that they would have four sleepers on that train during peak times (which, along with at least four coaches, means they would certainly justify an extra food-service car).

 

[Rafi]

Thanks for that link, MadMan...

I also stumbled across this little nugget on page 68-69 (I've added bold to call out main points which may be of interest to some forum members):

SUPERLINERS:This project will return 21 long distance cars from wreck status. Upon completion of the wreck work, these cars will receive a full overhaul in

accordance with the scopes defined by equipment type. The scope of work will include overhaul or replacement of major components and systems that

will maintain the rolling stock in a state of good repair and extend the life of the asset. The work scope includes replacing all carpet, drapes and

cushions, windows, batteries, battery chargers, lamps, wheel slide units, door motors, diaphragms, toilets, water heaters, and 480-volt train line.

Melamine will replace carpet on walls where applicable. The work scope also includes the overhaul of trucks and air brake valves. Additionally, this

equipment will include all work to upgrade the equipment to the Empire Builder standards (name given for this interior package which includes new color

scheme upgrades for floors, walls, and window coverings that was installed on the Empire Builder Service).

Justification:

This work will return stored and wrecked fleet to service and complete the long distance fleet types with ADA compliance (Americans with Disabilities

Act).

Increase capacity and fill-in on long distance service: 1 Superliner Coach-Bag (31006) @ $1.086m; 2 Superliner I Coach (34040 and 34087) @ $.672m.

Capitol Limited Route (will replace the Diner-Lounge Cars which will go on the Empire Builder Route): 3 Superliner I Diners (38017, 38026 and 38031) @ $.970m; 1 Superliner II Diner (38049) @ $1.055m.

Auto Train Service: 1 Superliner II Deluxe Sleeper (32501) @ $1.073m.

Expand Empire Builder Route: 5 Superliner I Sleepers (32014, 32040, 32046, 32049 and 32065) @ $1.073m; 1 Superliner II Sleeper (32112) @ $1.055m.

Supplement daily shortage on long distance service: 2 Superliner II Trans Sleepers (39008 and 39023) @ $1.065m.

Lake Shore Limited Route: 1 Viewliner Diner (8400) @ $1.634m.

3 Superliner I Lounges (33003, 33011 and 33016) @ $.378m; 1 Superliner II Lounge (33036) @ $.512m.

AMFLEETS:

This project will return 60 Amfleet cars to service over the next two years. The following scope will be performed under this Amfleet project:

1) Twenty (20) Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be converted to Amfleet I Coach Cars. During this process, the galley area will be removed, windows, seating, heating, and air conditioning will be installed and the car floor plan will meet the standard Capstone configuration thereby increasing revenue capacity. (Capstone: name given for this interior package enhancement which includes bathroom modules, wall and ceiling plastics, and a more neutral color scheme).

2) Four (4) Amfleet II Coach Cars and seven (7) Amfleet I Coach Cars will be rehabilitated from wreck status and then undergo a level 3 overhaul. (Level 3 overhaul; high level of overhaul or replacement of major components and systems that return the rolling stock to a state of good repair and extend the life of the asset. The work scope includes the overhaul of trucks, air brake valves, couplers, draft gears, seats, diaphragms, door operators, battery chargers, air conditioning units, and toilets. Also includes the replacement of the wheel-slide system, 480-volt train line cables, batteries, heat and air conditioning control panels, freeze protection system, carpet, cushions, windows, lighting, exhaust fans, blower motors, evaporator assembly and weather-stripping. Any fleet-wide modifications will also be completed as well as the Capstone interior package.

3) One (1) Amfleet II Food Service Car will be rehabilitated from wreck status and then undergo a Diner Lite Conversion and a level 3 overhaul. This converted car will have new table and booth seating, dry storage compartments, conductor's module, condiment stations, and additional refrigerators.

4) Thirteen (13) Amfleet I Coach Cars and fifteen (15) Amfleet I Food Service Cars will receive a level 3 overhaul.

Justification:

This work will return stored and wrecked equipment to service and complete the Amfleet equipment types with ADA compliance (Americans with Disabilities Act).

The following units and capital per unit estimated costs will be completed under this project following the index listed under the Description Area. Also noted in this section is the service it will supplement:

1) The following Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be converted to Amfleet I Coach cars at a total average cost per unit of $1.428m: 20026, 20029, 20032, 20037, 20041, 20045, 20049, 20124, 20145, 20906, 20908, 20936, 20977, 20979, 20982, 20988, 48143, 48152, 48984 and 48989. These Amfleet I Coach Cars will be used during peak demands; i.e., Holidays including Thanksgiving and Christmas, specials and charter services.

2) The following Amfleet II Coach Cars will be returned from wreck status at a total average cost per unit of $.872m: 25007, 25055, 25085 and 25103. These cars will be used in long distance service. The following Amfleet I Coach Cars will be returned from wreck status at the total average cost of $1.019m: 21095, 21100, 21177, 21182, 44673, 44834, and 44957. These cars will be in Northeast Corridor Regional Service.

3) The following Amfleet II Food Service Car will be returned from wreck status at a cost of $.650m: 28019. This car will be used in single-level long distance service.

4) The following Amfleet I Coach Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of $.723m: 21018, 21021, 21027, 21099, 21112, 21117, 21123, 21124, 21134, 21137, 21151, 21164 and 21195. The following Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of $.615m: 20225, 20253, 28305, 28350, 28353, 28357, 28358, 43351, 43353, 43359, 43383, 43371, 48220, 48224 and 48905. The first 13 cars (Amfleet I Coach) will be used in the Northeast Corridor Regional Service. An operating plan is being developed to utilize the remaining 15 Amfleet I Food Service Cars where Club Dinette Cars are currently being used.

P-40s RETURNING TO SERVICE

This project will return to service 15 P-40 Locomotives in order for them to be used in long distance service. During the overhaul of the P-40 locomotives, all main components of the unit including the auxiliary generator power contactors, voltage regulator, batteries, trucks and air brake will be replaced or overhauled. The 480 volt system, event recorder, and interior components such as seat, doors, windows and control stand will be inspected and replaced. All modifications on file will be completed. The cab interior and exterior will be refurbished and painted.

Justification:

The following P-40 locomotives have a capital per unit estimated cost of $867,000: 807, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 821, 822, 823, 824, 830, 831, 832, 835 and 837.

These locomotives will be used in long distance service.

-Rafi

 

[Steve4031]

Looks like the full service diners are coming back to the Capitol Limited. Lots of good improvements here. Glad I voted for Obama!!!!.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

The following Amfleet I Coach Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of $.723m: 21018, 21021, 21027, 21099, 21112, 21117,21123, 21124, 21134, 21137, 21151, 21164 and 21195. The following Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of

$.615m: 20225, 20253, 28305, 28350, 28353, 28357, 28358, 43351, 43353, 43359, 43383, 43371, 48220, 48224 and 48905. The first 13 cars

(Amfleet I Coach) will be used in the Northeast Corridor Regional Service. An operating plan is being developed to utilize the remaining 15 Amfleet I

Food Service Cars where Club Dinette Cars are currently being used.

Does this mean the 2-1 biz cars will be gone forever ?

 

[MadManMoon]

Looks like the full service diners are coming back to the Capitol Limited. Lots of good improvements here. Glad I voted for Obama!!!!.

I hope that's the answer! The way I read it, the Diner-Lounge cars are going to the Empire Builder - does that mean they're going SDS on all routes now?!

 

[BuzzKillington]

Does anyone think that the rebuilt P40's might mean some new/reinstated routes in the near future?

 

[AlanB]

The following Amfleet I Coach Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of $.723m: 21018, 21021, 21027, 21099, 21112, 21117,21123, 21124, 21134, 21137, 21151, 21164 and 21195. The following Amfleet I Food Service Cars will be overhauled at a total average cost per unit of

$.615m: 20225, 20253, 28305, 28350, 28353, 28357, 28358, 43351, 43353, 43359, 43383, 43371, 48220, 48224 and 48905. The first 13 cars

(Amfleet I Coach) will be used in the Northeast Corridor Regional Service. An operating plan is being developed to utilize the remaining 15 Amfleet I

Food Service Cars where Club Dinette Cars are currently being used.

Does this mean the 2-1 biz cars will be gone forever ?

There is no plan in the world that could possibly replace 45 Club-Dinette cars with only 15 AMF I food service cars. I believe, although I will admit that it is a bit unclear, that they are saying that there are still a few Club-Dinette cars that ply the NEC and that they are trying to take those off the corridor. The Club-Dinette cars really aren't the right cars for the NEC and it's passenger loads. It probably works on the overnight run, but otherwise they just don't have the capacity for seating that the NEC demmands.

Most likely those Club-Dinettes would then be reassigned else where, like maybe to the Adirondack and other trains of that type.

I certainly don't think that Amtrak intends to do away with 45 cars that were basically just rebuilt within the last 5 years. That would be a huge waste of money.

 

[AlanB]

Looks like the full service diners are coming back to the Capitol Limited. Lots of good improvements here. Glad I voted for Obama!!!!.

I hope that's the answer! The way I read it, the Diner-Lounge cars are going to the Empire Builder - does that mean they're going SDS on all routes now?!

No, it sounds like they want a second car that can do dinners on the EB, since they plan to add yet another sleeper to that run, plus having the CCC would allow the Portland section to finally serve a nice cooked meal. My guess is that when the two sections are combined, that they would use the full diner for sleeping car pax only with the current menu and staff and the CCC for coach pax who want a sit down meal, albeit a more SDS like meal.