Chicago - East Coast Service

[fulham]

Since this topic seems to have "hijacked" the Hoosier State, discussion, I have decided to start a new topic to discuss the current state of Amtrak's Chicago - East Coast service.

I travel several times a year between the Midwest and Hartford, CT. Westbound the LSL or the CL both provide decent departure times and (if the trains are close to being on-time) decent arrival times into Chicago. Eastbound is another story. What I normally do is take the CL to Washington, hope the train is not too late, and then the 3 PM regional up to Hartford. But if the train is late and I miss the 3 PM regional, I have to spend a night in DC. It is the same scenario with the LSL, a connection cannot be made at NY, and one is available at SPG, but if the Boston section is late, you are stuck in SPG.

Could I change to the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh, I could, but changing trains at 5 AM, and sitting for 2 hours in the Pittsburgh station is not very appealing to me.

Bottom line is that Amtrak needs to restore one-seat service between Chicago and New York via Philadelphia that could arrive into New York in mid-afternoon.

The proposal that came up several years ago regarding the through cars between the Pennsylvanian and the CL would be a nice start, but still you are not getting into New York until 5 PM, and WB you have to sit on the train for about 4 hours in Pittsburgh waiting for the CL.

Ideally a resurrection of the Three Rivers would be the best situation. With the new bi-levels coming on-line eventually, low-level coaches could be freed up to make this happen along with the additional V-II sleepers and if not a diner, a cafe car.

The other alternative would be, as has been discussed, a 2nd Pennsylvanian route frequency where the whole consist would combine with the CL in Pittsburgh as was done in the 1980's. In fact, looking at June/July 1983 Official Guide, the Broadway and Capitol were combined from Chicago to Pittsburgh, arriving Pittsburgh at 3:30 AM, with the Broadway arriving NYP at 1:22 PM and the Capitol arriving WAS at 11:45 AM. The combined train left Chicago at 4:50 PM. There was also a Pennsylvanian running at this time that left NYP at 8:30 AM and left PGH at 9:45 AM.

Eastbound the "2nd Pennsylvanian" would leave PGH around 5:30 AM and would arrive NYP around 3 PM. Westbound it would leave NYP around 4:30 PM to get into PGH around 11 PM to meet the CL.

There could be capacity issues at NYP, don't know that, but this service would offer the residents of NJ/PA better service to the Midwest, especially those that live between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.

Bottom line is that given the success of the LSL, there appears to be a market for travel between the MW and NY/PA/NJ, etc. Let's hope something can come of this.

 

[crabby_appleton1950]

I know virtually nothing about Amtrak routes, but about 10 years ago I took a train from Hartford to Springfield to Chicago. Is that route in reverse still available and feasible for you?

 

[fulham]

The EB Boston section of the LSL is due into SPG at 5:48 PM. The last train leaves SPG southbound at 7:25 PM. You have a 1'32" minute cushion at SPG. Given the on again/off again time keeping issues w/the LSL I feel you are taking a chance to rely on this connection. Several years ago I did this, missed the connection and took a taxi from SPG to Hartford. That was not good, and I have not done that since.

 

[the_traveler]

There still is, but as the OP said if the LSL is late (say doesn't arrive until midnight), there is no 2am train from Springfield to Hartford.

 

[Eric S]

Since we're focusing on the Chicago to NEC market here, I guess I would ask others, especially those who have done such great analysis in other threads, what the priority should be here.

Assuming equipment issues and freight railroad agreement are not problems, how would the following rank in terms of priority (ridership, cost-effectiveness, etc.):

Adding a second daily Lake Shore Limited

Adding a second daily Capitol Limited

Restoring a daily Broadway Limited (via PGH and PHL, and whichever route west of PGH works best)

I suppose making the Cardinal a daily train should also be on the list.

 

[fulham]

I believe a daily Broadway Limited via Toledo - Cleveland - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia to New York should be the top priority.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I believe a daily Broadway Limited via Toledo - Cleveland - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia to New York should be the top priority.

Ditto!

 

[spacecadet]

I believe a daily Broadway Limited via Toledo - Cleveland - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia to New York should be the top priority.

Back to the future, baby! The BL is the lost Amtrak route I still lament the most. I couldn't believe it when they downsized it to the TR and then retired it completely - when I rode it last, it had about 15 cars and they were all full. How can there not be demand for it?

 

[jis]

The cancellation of the Broadway Limited was one of supreme pieces of Amtrak idiocy IMHO.

 

[Paulus]

Are we honestly talking about adding another Chicago-East long distance train which crosses Ohio at absolutely terrible hours? It's not like it'd make for a horrible schedule either.

Westbound-------Eastbound

New York: D8:15PM-------A6:45AM

Pittsburgh: A5:30AM-------A9:30PM

Cleveland: A8:30AM-------A6:30PM

Toledo: A10:40AM-------A4:20PM

Chicago: A2:15PM-------D11:50AM

Arrival at New York is potentially problematic for scheduling with commuter traffic, but you could easily shift it an hour and a half later and still have fairly decent timings for Ohio. Might even be better to do so, to allow for a longer time on a Cleveland-Toledo day trip (though I suspect you'd actually want to flip everything by 12 hours to direct traffic to Cleveland for a day trip).

 

[afigg]

The EB Boston section of the LSL is due into SPG at 5:48 PM. The last train leaves SPG southbound at 7:25 PM. You have a 1'32" minute cushion at SPG. Given the on again/off again time keeping issues w/the LSL I feel you are taking a chance to rely on this connection. Several years ago I did this, missed the connection and took a taxi from SPG to Hartford. That was not good, and I have not done that since.

It is several years away scheduled to begin in late 2016, but the "Hartford line" commuter service will offer more connection options to get from SPG to Hartford from the LSL. Checking the NHHS website, the plan at is to increase from 6 to 17 daily trains from NHV to HRT and to 12 daily trains to SPG at service launch (source: Fall 2014 newsletter). The schedule won't likely be set or announced until close to launch date, but I think with 12 daily trains to SPG, they would have at least 1 later evening departure southbound. That would provide a larger connection margin at SPG for the eastbound LSL BOS section.

Another change that would help taking the LSL from Hartford is the proposed shift back to an earlier departure from CHI. I think that plan has been put on long term hold until the EB delays are demonstrated to be fixed, most or all of the Indiana Gateway track projects are completed, and most or all of the Schenectady to Poughkeepsie upgrades are completed as well. Then move the LSL back to an earlier departure from CHI which will mean an earlier arrival at both SPG and BOS which in turn should boost ridership for the Boston section.

In the bigger picture of Chicago/Midwest to east coast service, as I stated in the drifting off topic Hoosier State thread, I agree that if Amtrak is to restore an LD train, it should be a Three Rivers/Broadway Limited service via NYP-PHL-PGH-CLE-CHI. This would be in addition to a daily Cardinal and expanded LSL. The schedule should be set both ways to make the overnight section mainly from Cleveland to Harrisburg to provide mostly daytime hours for CHI-CLE and HAR-NYP for a schedule offset from the LSL and CL. Call it the Broadway Limited for marketing brand name recognition.

A major issue is equipment, even with the current Viewliner II order. This service would almost certainly take 3 trainsets. Amtrak is close to having enough diners, but to run a restored BL, exercising options to acquire an additional 6 sleepers, 2-3 bag-dorms, and at least 1 diner car should provide enough the Vw IIs to provide a bag-dorm, 2 sleeper, 1 diner set for the 3 trainsets. Configure the BL consist to be interchangable with the Cardinal. The shortage would be in Amfleet II diner-lounge cars and Amfleet II coach cars. A solution might be to rebuild a few Horizon cafe cars into Am II diner-lounge car substitutes if that is even feasible and 20-25 Horizon coach cars as LD coach cars. Of course, finding the funds and the will by Amtrak management to do even a modest expansion/restoration of LD service is the catch.

 

[fulham]

Does anyone know the number of passengers off the Pennsylvanian that currently transfer to the CL and vice-versa? When you look at the map the LSL makes sense with the 2 trains in one with Boston and New York as endpoints. Why Amtrak management let this situation end in the New York and Washington markets is a mystery given the population density between New York and Philadelphia. I know equipment was the main issue, but with new equipment on the horizon restoring a train that would split at Pittsburgh with direct service to New York and Washington makes a lot of sense.

 

[neroden]

Since we're focusing on the Chicago to NEC market here, I guess I would ask others, especially those who have done such great analysis in other threads, what the priority should be here.

Assuming equipment issues and freight railroad agreement are not problems, how would the following rank in terms of priority (ridership, cost-effectiveness, etc.):

My assessment of these four:

#1 Restoring a daily Broadway Limited (via PGH and PHL, and whichever route west of PGH works best)

This should use same route as Capitol Limited west of Cleveland, probably west of Pittsburgh (there's an argument for Youngstown vs. Canton). 2x/day service to NY from Cleveland & Toledo is valuable.

#2 I suppose making the Cardinal a daily train should also be on the list.

Very high priority because of Cincinnati, mostly. Best route east from Cincy in the near term.

#3 Adding a second daily Lake Shore Limited

Useful but payback is not quite as quick as the other two

(Probably not viable commercially in the short term) Adding a second daily Capitol Limited

The existing one doesn't fill up and there's a shortage of intermediate points. This may have to do with DC historically being part of the South socially; there are tighter travel links between the Northeast and the Midwest than there are between the South and the Midwest.

I would also prioritize

#2.5 Connection from Michigan to the east. Dearborn-Toledo with connections eastward. Ideally, Grand Rapids - Lansing - Dearborn - Toledo.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Since we're focusing on the Chicago to NEC market here, I guess I would ask others, especially those who have done such great analysis in other threads, what the priority should be here.

Assuming equipment issues and freight railroad agreement are not problems, how would the following rank in terms of priority (ridership, cost-effectiveness, etc.):

I would also prioritize

#2.5 Connection from Michigan to the east. Dearborn-Toledo with connections eastward. Ideally, Grand Rapids - Lansing - Dearborn - Toledo.

Michigan east would basically be the original New York Central Wolverine but that route today would have logistical problems since it crosses into Canada and you need papers to enter. You would probably want to dogleg from Detroit down to Toledo keeping the route in America.

 

[keelhauled]

Are we honestly talking about adding another Chicago-East long distance train which crosses Ohio at absolutely terrible hours? It's not like it'd make for a horrible schedule either.

Westbound-------Eastbound

New York: D8:15PM-------A6:45AM

Pittsburgh: A5:30AM-------A9:30PM

Cleveland: A8:30AM-------A6:30PM

Toledo: A10:40AM-------A4:20PM

Chicago: A2:15PM-------D11:50AM

Arrival at New York is potentially problematic for scheduling with commuter traffic, but you could easily shift it an hour and a half later and still have fairly decent timings for Ohio. Might even be better to do so, to allow for a longer time on a Cleveland-Toledo day trip (though I suspect you'd actually want to flip everything by 12 hours to direct traffic to Cleveland for a day trip).

It seems to me like the disadvantage of this is the trainset sits in Chicago for almost 24 hours. Needs four sets instead of three. Of course, I suppose this is working under the assumption that Amtrak orders a lot more single level cars to start with, so maybe it's a moot point. But it does add a third more overhead than the LSL or CL.

 

[amamba]

There still is, but as the OP said if the LSL is late (say doesn't arrive until midnight), there is no 2am train from Springfield to Hartford.

True but it's s guaranteed connection. When I missed that connection - albeit only once - Amtrak offered to pay for cab fare to my destination.

 

[neroden]

Are we honestly talking about adding another Chicago-East long distance train which crosses Ohio at absolutely terrible hours? It's not like it'd make for a horrible schedule either.

Westbound-------Eastbound

New York: D8:15PM-------A6:45AM

Pittsburgh: A5:30AM-------A9:30PM

Cleveland: A8:30AM-------A6:30PM

Toledo: A10:40AM-------A4:20PM

Chicago: A2:15PM-------D11:50AM

This is my favored schedule westbound. The eastbound is too early into Philadelphia, though (5:15 AM is OK but...).
The Pennsylvanian should, in this case, remain an independent train.... still with connecting cars to the Capitol Limited.

Arrival at New York is potentially problematic for scheduling with commuter traffic, but you could easily shift it an hour and a half later and still have fairly decent timings for Ohio. Might even be better to do so, to allow for a longer time on a Cleveland-Toledo day trip (though I suspect you'd actually want to flip everything by 12 hours to direct traffic to Cleveland for a day trip).

The value of this schedule is tremendous: it gives the "morning into NY, evening out of NY" schedule to parallel the existing "morning into Chicago, evening out of Chicago" schedule. It finally gives daytime service into Cleveland and Toledo. The nighttime running through Pennsylvania would be balanced by the existing Pennsylvanian. (The expense would be getting NS to agree.)

With the NY rush hour problem, the correct eastbound is probably later. Try this, which attempts to arrive New York cleanly after the commuter rush:

Westbound-------Eastbound

New York: D8:00PM-------A9:00AM

Philadelphia: A10:15PM-------A7:30AM

Pittsburgh: A5:30AM-------A11:30PM

Cleveland: A8:30AM-------A8:30PM

Toledo: A10:45AM-------A6:30PM

Chicago: A2:30PM-------D2:45PM

(CL/Pennsy combined schedule for comparison:

New York: D10:50AM-------A5:00PM

Philadelphia: A12:15PM-------A2:50PM

Pittsburgh: A8:05PM ------D7:20AM

Pittsburgh: D12:15AM-------A5:55AM

Cleveland: A3:15AM-------A2:35AM

Toledo: A5:30AM-------A12:30PM

Chicago: A9:05AM-------D7:30PM

)

With this Broadway Limited: On the east coast, connections are available to the Star, Meteor, Crescent, and (if on time) Carolinian. At Chicago, connections are available to the Hiawathas, Quincy service, St. Louis, Carbondale service, and CONO. Connections to the Texas Eagle can be added by tweaking the Texas Eagle schedule (which should have some slack taken out of it with the move to the TRE and the St. Louis-Chicago improvements). More importantly for connections from the west, people who are delayed and must stay overnight can be accomodated on the *midday train* the next day, because *there is one*.

The relatively low population between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg and the slow running in that area makes it suitable for an train to run overnight there. I'd like to design a second frequency of the LSL with evening departure from NY and morning arrival, but the trouble is it's too attractive to stop at the busy population centers of upstate NY during the day.

Technically my Broadway Limited schedule can be done with two trainsets, but the turn in Chicago would involve... not cleaning the train, probably. So three trainsets, and it's comfortable (same-day turn in NY, overnight turn in Chicago).

 

[cirdan]

I believe a daily Broadway Limited via Toledo - Cleveland - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia to New York should be the top priority.

I guess this would be as a replacement for the Pennsylvanian as I doubt there are sufficient passenger numbers to support both.

But then the timings of the Pennsylvanian are optimized around this corridor and thus not optimal if extended. I guess it would imply an arrival in Chicago in the early hours.

 

[Anderson]

Of the three options, I think the second Lake Shore is probably the best performer of the bunch. I'd like to see some sort of extensive through-car situation between the Cap and New York, but given the choice of a separate Broadway or a second Lake Shore I would be inclined to vote for the Lake Shore. In particular, the route has better intermediate market options (NYP-BUF as an overnight market comes to mind). While the daylight coverage in New York would have to be traded against, in this case everything from Buffalo east already has at least 3-4 such trains (Albany-New York has a ton). You'd add in some interesting pairing options, such as making Montreal-Chicago a viable routing with no overnight forced off the train (as well as room for a Buffalo-Toronto thruway or some sort of connecting arrangement with VIA, thereby allowing TWO-NYP without an extremely long day being lost en route); if you add in a Boston section, you also allow connections to/from the Vermonter both ways as well as a better connection to the Shuttle. In short, the "network effect" here is strongest by virtue of a whole lot of cities getting a straight 2x daily connection.

My second choice would be doubling up the Capitol Limited. The intermediate city options aren't as good, but you should definitely get a good connection to the Silver Star out of the deal, and depending on how you put the schedule together you can probably connect to the Carolinian and might even manage a connection to the Palmetto (though the latter would probably involve needing a fifth set and/or making Cumberland-Washington times less desirable; it is an open question as to which option is better...Cumberland-Washington seems to have some potential while one-night trips between Chicago and anywhere on the A-line down to Savannah would likely be a boon to Amtrak as well). Again, you add in a bunch of network effects all around.

The Broadway is my third choice of the three, even though I think it might perform better than the second Capitol Limited in dollar terms. Basically, I think there's a risk that the train turns into a "worst of both worlds" train that doesn't connect to much in Chicago (thereby removing that utility in Pennsylvania) and/or doesn't connect to the Star. I can easily envision a schedule that screws up both connections to some extent, resulting in some really messy routing problems for folks unless you do this and run through cars on the Pennsylvanian (at which point I'd seriously suggest slapping a Washington section of some kind on the Broadway).

I view a daily Cardinal as a key improvement to the system, but I also see it as outside of this particular discussion in several respects. In particular, that train has the "touchiest" connections on both ends because more than any other train in the Amtrak system it is stuck trying to be two trains (one focused CIN-CHI and the other focused CIN-WAS-NYP) and as a result performs the jobs of both poorly. It also has a longer running time from Chicago to the East Coast. Honestly, this route would be well-served by a second train as well (unlikely though that is) so the current train could perhaps leave Chicago later and the replacement substantially earlier (the early train would ideally hit Cincinnati mid-evening while the late train would hit it around 0600), giving the whole route daylight service. Again, I know this is unlikely for a bunch of reasons and it would probably be the worst-performing option of the four listed here but it also does have certain merits.

 

[jis]

I simply don't believe that doubling the Cap should be a priority over fixing the NYP - CHI market. Historically the WAS market has been relatively small compared to the NYP - CHI market, and nothing has changed. Just take a look at the total air traffic between WAS - CHI vs. NY - CHI. Basically my priority would be, 1 Restore Broadway Ltd, 2. LSL x2 one via Dearborn. 3. Daily Card, 4. 2x Cap with perhaps the second one being a section of the Broadway as things were when Amtrak started.

 

[Paulus]

The value of this schedule is tremendous: it gives the "morning into NY, evening out of NY" schedule to parallel the existing "morning into Chicago, evening out of Chicago" schedule. It finally gives daytime service into Cleveland and Toledo. The nighttime running through Pennsylvania would be balanced by the existing Pennsylvanian. (The expense would be getting NS to agree.)

With the NY rush hour problem, the correct eastbound is probably later. Try this, which attempts to arrive New York cleanly after the commuter rush:

Westbound-------Eastbound

New York: D8:00PM-------A9:00AM

Philadelphia: A10:15PM-------A7:30AM

Pittsburgh: A5:30AM-------A11:30PM

Cleveland: A8:30AM-------A8:30PM

Toledo: A10:45AM-------A6:30PM

Chicago: A2:30PM-------D2:45PM

With this Broadway Limited: On the east coast, connections are available to the Star, Meteor, Crescent, and (if on time) Carolinian. At Chicago, connections are available to the Hiawathas, Quincy service, St. Louis, Carbondale service, and CONO. Connections to the Texas Eagle can be added by tweaking the Texas Eagle schedule (which should have some slack taken out of it with the move to the TRE and the St. Louis-Chicago improvements). More importantly for connections from the west, people who are delayed and must stay overnight can be accomodated on the *midday train* the next day, because *there is one*.

There's a potential issue with NEC traffic at that particular time with a Regional and Acela departing Philadelphia to New York at 7:25 and 7:35. 7:45 would probably work well, though I'm not fond of pushing back Cleveland.

My second choice would be doubling up the Capitol Limited. The intermediate city options aren't as good, but you should definitely get a good connection to the Silver Star out of the deal, and depending on how you put the schedule together you can probably connect to the Carolinian and might even manage a connection to the Palmetto (though the latter would probably involve needing a fifth set and/or making Cumberland-Washington times less desirable; it is an open question as to which option is better...Cumberland-Washington seems to have some potential while one-night trips between Chicago and anywhere on the A-line down to Savannah would likely be a boon to Amtrak as well). Again, you add in a bunch of network effects all around.

If the intermediate options aren't good, the train simply isn't going to do very well at all; you don't have the speed to woo enough end point traffic to make money. I would also question the assumption that a one night trip between Chicago and the A-line down to Savannah would be a boon to Amtrak: There doesn't appear to be a strong Chicago air market outside of Charlotte (1,100 passengers/day, about on par with Chicago-Columbus, average one way fare of $223.11). And while that would be a one night trip, it's also a two day trip with an early afternoon departure from Chicago and an evening arrival.

The Broadway is my third choice of the three, even though I think it might perform better than the second Capitol Limited in dollar terms. Basically, I think there's a risk that the train turns into a "worst of both worlds" train that doesn't connect to much in Chicago (thereby removing that utility in Pennsylvania) and/or doesn't connect to the Star. I can easily envision a schedule that screws up both connections to some extent, resulting in some really messy routing problems for folks unless you do this and run through cars on the Pennsylvanian (at which point I'd seriously suggest slapping a Washington section of some kind on the Broadway).

This is the issue I always see with long distance train proposals: Far too much focus on the end points, including connections, at the expense of the intermediate cities. It's why Ohio and Indiana have been just absolutely hosed: Everyone's caring about New York to Chicago or Chicago to Washington and they just get left behind. The focus should be on the ridership potential of the train itself, and especially the coach ridership (which means focusing on daylight segments), not of how it connects to some other train.

 

[Metra Electric Guest]

This is the issue I always see with long distance train proposals: Far too much focus on the end points, including connections, at the expense of the intermediate cities. It's why Ohio and Indiana have been just absolutely hosed: Everyone's caring about New York to Chicago or Chicago to Washington and they just get left behind. The focus should be on the ridership potential of the train itself, and especially the coach ridership (which means focusing on daylight segments), not of how it connects to some other train.

I'm glad you said that - it seems that multiple daytime Chicago - Ohio cities (as well as MSP and Louisville) should be higher priority than a lot more CHI-NYP/WAS trains.

 

[jis]

This is the issue I always see with long distance train proposals: Far too much focus on the end points, including connections, at the expense of the intermediate cities. It's why Ohio and Indiana have been just absolutely hosed: Everyone's caring about New York to Chicago or Chicago to Washington and they just get left behind. The focus should be on the ridership potential of the train itself, and especially the coach ridership (which means focusing on daylight segments), not of how it connects to some other train.

I'm glad you said that - it seems that multiple daytime Chicago - Ohio cities (as well as MSP and Louisville) should be higher priority than a lot more CHI-NYP/WAS trains.

Absolutely there should be such. But by PRIIA definition those would be Regional trains, not LD trains, and hence funded by the states and not by Amtrak. There is a case to be made for scheduling some of the LD trains to serve those markets better, notwithstanding that, and that is what we have been discussing as part of the LD discussion.
There could be a separate thread to discuss Chicago - Indian - Ohio Regional Service.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If a second Lake Shore is ever started, the Boston Section could be the Lake Shore Ltd.as a stand alone train, and the train out of NYP could be the 21st Century Ltd. with no switching in ALB!!

Would be fun to once again have the Broadway Ltd and the Century Ltd. racing each other between NY and CHI!!!

 

[Paulus]

Here's a hypothetical Cleveland to Chicago focused BOS-CHI train:

Westbound----------------Eastbound

Boston: 6:30PM-----------9:00AM

Springfield: 8:45PM------6:15AM

Albany: 12:00AM----------4:00AM

Buffalo: 5:00AM----------10:00PM

Cleveland: 8:45AM--------6:50PM

Toledo: 11:00AM----------4:10PM

Chicago: 2:45PM----------10:30AM

This allows good daylight service across Ohio as well as a convenient daylight frequency between Springfield and Boston. New York as a potential terminus is unfortunately a bit of a mess since you'd be forced to arrive during peak commute hours, which I don't think advisable with a long distance train. Might be worth nudging New York into funding an extra Empire service train for an early arrival into New York from Albany which would allow passenger transfers.