Commuter rail: Why not a more attractive exterior/interior design?

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Stadler Kiss exterior:

640px-SBB_RABe_511_T%C3%B6ssm%C3%BChle.jpg


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS

Stadler Kiss interior:

SBB+Dosto+RV+RABe+511+001+22280_19.jpg


source: http://bahnonline.railimages.ch/fotos/2010/vorbild/juni2010/Zuerich+HB+Praesentation+der+neuen+S-Bahn+fuer+Zuerich/SBB+Dosto+RV+RABe+511+001+22280_19.jpg.html

To be continued in the next post. :)
Maybe this comnparison is not entirely fair as this is in fact the interior of the first class area. The second class is not quite as comfortable.

How many US commuter systems actually offer first class?
 
There's a sorta first class offering on NJTs Long Branch line, in the form of a commuter club, a similar thing on a UP line out of Chicago, and of course the LIRR's Seasonal Cannonball to the Hamptons
 
There's a sorta first class offering on NJTs Long Branch line, in the form of a commuter club, a similar thing on a UP line out of Chicago, and of course the LIRR's Seasonal Cannonball to the Hamptons
The last time I looked in 2013, the Cannonball was a consist of standard C3s with a dual-mode DM30AC at each end. The special thing apparently was the schedule, which was a bit faster than the next fastest train to/from the Hamptons, and the reserved seat.

Apparently the Jersey Shore Commuter Club is not running anymore. The car was damaged in Hurricane Sandy and it has not run since then. They have a Facebook Page that announces its demise.
 
The last time I looked in 2013, the Cannonball was a consist of standard C3s with a dual-mode DM30AC at each end. The special thing apparently was the schedule, which was a bit faster than the next fastest train to/from the Hamptons, and the reserved seat.
Well it is a standard C3 car, more or less; but you still do get at seat beverage service. I think one end of the car doesn't have the normal seating so as to provide room for the service area.
 
The last time I looked in 2013, the Cannonball was a consist of standard C3s with a dual-mode DM30AC at each end. The special thing apparently was the schedule, which was a bit faster than the next fastest train to/from the Hamptons, and the reserved seat.
Well it is a standard C3 car, more or less; but you still do get at seat beverage service. I think one end of the car doesn't have the normal seating so as to provide room for the service area.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking just after posting that. Is the beverage service is free?
The westbound Hampton Reserve service has only one less stop between the Hamptons and Jamaica, and of course now it goes through to New York, whereas if you took the train just ahead of it,, you have to change in Jamaica. I have actually taken the regular train that runs just ahead of the Hampton Reserve service and it runs nonstop from Speonk to Jamaica, which is probably one of the longest non-stop non-Amtrak run in the country.
 
The last time I looked in 2013, the Cannonball was a consist of standard C3s with a dual-mode DM30AC at each end. The special thing apparently was the schedule, which was a bit faster than the next fastest train to/from the Hamptons, and the reserved seat.
Well it is a standard C3 car, more or less; but you still do get at seat beverage service. I think one end of the car doesn't have the normal seating so as to provide room for the service area.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking just after posting that. Is the beverage service is free?
Well it's free in the sense that you don't pay per drink; but you pay a premium for the seat in the car over the regular ticket price. It's not like NJT's now dead Atlantic City Gambler's Express (ACE) where you paid a premium for the FC seat which was a better seat, but then still had to pay for the food/drinks that the attendant brought you.
 
I've got to admit that I'm a bit surprised that, in at least some areas, "parlor car"/upgrade-class service doesn't exist on commuter lines. It's not as much of a surprise on some systems where the "base" class of service is pretty nice, but in some places where you have 3-2 seating and you're on the train for over an hour, I'd think you could do something there that would improve revenue per car.
 
I've got to admit that I'm a bit surprised that, in at least some areas, "parlor car"/upgrade-class service doesn't exist on commuter lines. It's not as much of a surprise on some systems where the "base" class of service is pretty nice, but in some places where you have 3-2 seating and you're on the train for over an hour, I'd think you could do something there that would improve revenue per car.
In several conversations with management of some of the largest commuter operations in the country I have repeatedly heard that the administrative headache is simply not worth it.
Note that the Hampton Reserve service on LIRR is a weekend thing, and not a commuter service per se. That is taking advantage of the unique tourist/vacation/weekender situation that LIRR has along the south shore of LI in conjunction with the Sunrise Highway traffic situation specially east of Riverhead. For the life of me I cannot figure out why NJT has stopped running their beach specials on NJCL, but their claim is that they never break even and given their limited budgets they'd rather run an additional regular train than something special.
 
I've got to admit that I'm a bit surprised that, in at least some areas, "parlor car"/upgrade-class service doesn't exist on commuter lines. It's not as much of a surprise on some systems where the "base" class of service is pretty nice, but in some places where you have 3-2 seating and you're on the train for over an hour, I'd think you could do something there that would improve revenue per car.
In several conversations with management of some of the largest commuter operations in the country I have repeatedly heard that the administrative headache is simply not worth it.
Note that the Hampton Reserve service on LIRR is a weekend thing, and not a commuter service per se. That is taking advantage of the unique tourist/vacation/weekender situation that LIRR has along the south shore of LI in conjunction with the Sunrise Highway traffic situation specially east of Riverhead. For the life of me I cannot figure out why NJT has stopped running their beach specials on NJCL, but their claim is that they never break even and given their limited budgets they'd rather run an additional regular train than something special.
Ok, serious question: What is the administrative headache in question? Actually having to have reserved seats, etc. rather than the generic "have a ticket for your travel segment" tickets?
 
Ok, serious question: What is the administrative headache in question? Actually having to have reserved seats, etc. rather than the generic "have a ticket for your travel segment" tickets?
Yes. Essentially just having to handle an additional category of tickets with additional service expectations attached.

Notice that NJT subcontracted the ticketing for the ACE service which was contracted to them by the Casinos. Heck it is like pulling teeth to even have them issue through tickets on their own service spanning NJTRO (Commuter Rail) NJTBO (Buses and some Light Rail) and the DBOM Light Rails. Forget about totally another class of tickets! Actually, I'd rather get the to issue through tickets to LIRR and MNRR before dealing with additional class of service.
 
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I would guess (I'll use MARC as an example):

1. Having to deal with more types of rolling stock. Right now to put a train in service, you need a locomotive, whatever coaches are laying around, and a cab car. Both from a maintenance and operations POV (you probably also need to make sure that the "first class" car is in the same position in the consist).

2. Having to deal with selling two different classes of tickets - how do you differentiate between a Perryville-WAS First Class and Commuter Class tickets? That's probably a one time thing to get the ticket vending machines set up to do.

3. Conductors having to deal with commuters that don't "get it". Tourists wandering into the wrong car, that sort of thing.

4. Depending on what "first class" entails, increased staffing if you're going to have any kind of food/beverage service. If it's just "nicer seats", that isn't an issue (outside increased conductor responsibility to police the car and make sure that people don't sneak in.

5. Assigned seating (if offered) doesn't really work well with monthly passes (which is what most of the full time commuters use).

None of these are dealbreakers to an agency that is dedicated to providing the service, but they're all work that has to be done above and beyond what they're doing today. The final question would be "can the increased fares cover the increased costs"? If not, even if they wanted to, it probably wouldn't happen.
 
The final question would be "can the increased fares cover the increased costs"? If not, even if they wanted to, it probably wouldn't happen.

This. Anti-transit groups would have a field day with taxpayer subsidized "first class" service on a commuter train. If you could

somehow demonstrate that the subsidies per "first class" passenger were lower than a "coach class" passenger, it might work

politically speaking. But the only way to find that out would be to actually implement it, and for the reasons you outlined that

is probably a long-shot at best.

The only place I can really see this happening would be on limited network systems. I'm thinking something like the Altamont

Corridor Express. One route, a very defined equipment rotation schedule, a place where enough people have money to burn

that they'd like the exclusiveness of a daily upgrade. And a long-enough ride for some folks to make the extras worth it.

I could see this working on Seattle's Sounder train service, too, although the length isn't as long. But once you get into a system

with many routes, all-day schedules, etc, then the logistics instantly get much harder to implement consistently.
 
jis, on 12 Feb 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Anderson, on 12 Feb 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:Ok, serious question: What is the administrative headache in question? Actually having to have reserved seats, etc. rather than the generic "have a ticket for your travel segment" tickets?
Yes. Essentially just having to handle an additional category of tickets with additional service expectations attached.

Notice that NJT subcontracted the ticketing for the ACE service which was contracted to them by the Casinos. Heck it is like pulling teeth to even have them issue through tickets on their own service spanning NJTRO (Commuter Rail) NJTBO (Buses and some Light Rail) and the DBOM Light Rails. Forget about totally another class of tickets! Actually, I'd rather get the to issue through tickets to LIRR and MNRR before dealing with additional class of service.
Frankly, they seem a bit lazy. Ok, more than a bit...if anything, you'd think that moving to some sort of "tap card" system (or some approximation thereof) would be high on their agenda, since it would cut down on both an immense amount of paper and allow integrating those things.

I also agree that at least NJT/LIRR through ticketing would make sense, even if there was no discount. MNRR will make sense eventually...but at the moment, it would be a lower priority in my mind given the lack of MNRR trains into NYP.
 
jis, on 12 Feb 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Anderson, on 12 Feb 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Ok, serious question: What is the administrative headache in question? Actually having to have reserved seats, etc. rather than the generic "have a ticket for your travel segment" tickets?
Yes. Essentially just having to handle an additional category of tickets with additional service expectations attached.
Notice that NJT subcontracted the ticketing for the ACE service which was contracted to them by the Casinos. Heck it is like pulling teeth to even have them issue through tickets on their own service spanning NJTRO (Commuter Rail) NJTBO (Buses and some Light Rail) and the DBOM Light Rails. Forget about totally another class of tickets! Actually, I'd rather get the to issue through tickets to LIRR and MNRR before dealing with additional class of service.
Frankly, they seem a bit lazy. Ok, more than a bit...if anything, you'd think that moving to some sort of "tap card" system (or some approximation thereof) would be high on their agenda, since it would cut down on both an immense amount of paper and allow integrating those things.I also agree that at least NJT/LIRR through ticketing would make sense, even if there was no discount. MNRR will make sense eventually...but at the moment, it would be a lower priority in my mind given the lack of MNRR trains into NYP.
Just to quote from Mary Poppins

All for the lack of...

Tuppence

Patiently, cautiously, trustingly invested in the...

To be specific

In the Dawes, Tomes, Mousley, Grubbs

Fidelity Fiduciary Bank
:)
 
There are only three aspects of NJ Transit I trust in: their nonpariel political corruption, their boundless incompetence, and their limitless laziness,
 
The only amenity I need is a place to sit and a train that provides frequent service and runs (mostly) on time.
[...]

Wifi is a waste of money, double so on commuter routes.

[...]

That means that it's not needed.

Of course to have the opinion that WiFi is not needed, or that WiFi on commuter rail is a waste of money, that is absolutely legit.

Maybe one can agree to disagree (with me simultaneously highlighting that for people looking for commuter rail to be even more successful, WiFi or not is not really the core issue, instead making the service as attractive as possible for current and future users is). Some other aspect is that maybe it might not be so relevant if the terminology is being used is that some amenity is needed, or that it is desired, or wished for to be there, or popular when it is there so that possibly for some riders it may be the one quality (probably in combination with other qualities) that causes the scales to tip and that in that way might be needed for them to take commuter rail instead of a different mode of transportation. So without discussion of the exact choice of words in depth, what is meant here in these paragraphs is that something might be needed for the commuter rail system, when it should be offered, in case it increases the attractiveness for many users.

At the same time, many people would agree that it would make sense (in any service business) to try to satisfy the wishes of the customers. If there are customers that wish for something, and/or if there is something that makes them more likely to make use of the service, or/and will make them like the service even more, then it would make sense to implement that something as part of the service offered.

If it just came down to what one single person would think is reasonable, maybe there was someone would not agree with "The only amenity I need is a place to sit" as they thought standing room only was good enough (like often found in Japanese commuter rail). So if it came down to that one person making the decision about the design of the person, maybe it would be no seats and standing room only. Still as a substantial number of US commuter rail users likes seats, it seems to make sense that there should be seats (although in a different meaning of the word, which I would not support, they might not literally be needed).

Obviously it would not be reasonable for a commuter rail system to implement something as part of the service in case just a very small percentage of their customers would wish for it. In the case of WiFi though, the following news article from March 2013 states that 40,000 to 60,000 passengers used MBTA's WiFi service every day.

See here: http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/downtown/2013/03/mbta_hopes_to_expand_wi-fi_ser.html

So of daily weekday ridership of 127,500 (as of Q1 of 2013), 40,000 to 60,000 passengers used the service. And that was while WiFi was only "installed on 258 of the T's 410 passenger rail coaches", so maybe a lot of passengers even ended up not using it, just because they sat in a car that did not have WiFi installed yet. That makes it appear like a substantial percentage of commuter rail users would like WiFi, and so it seems to many like it would not be a waste of money.

Especially as there might be some passengers who would have taken their car or some other mode of transportation (or would have chosen not to travel) instead, if it wouldn't be for commuter rail to offer such an attractive service, so offering this amenity might even lead to additional revenue, causing it even less to be any money wasted. Quite the opposite, more likely a good investment instead, as it might make commuter rail even more successful.
 
4. Depending on what "first class" entails, increased staffing if you're going to have any kind of food/beverage service. If it's just "nicer seats", that isn't an issue (outside increased conductor responsibility to police the car and make sure that people don't sneak in.
On some European commuter services, the seats aren't even really much nicer. People pay extra for first class just to get away from the riff raff, or just because there is a higher probability they will actually find an available seat rather than having to stand. Enforcement is often through signs threatening hefty fines to people caught with the wrong class of ticket.
 
All I can say is look first at the car industry. When it comes to design, America has gotten better, but still just doesn’t get it. I can’t explain why, but that is the reality of this country. Even our light rail cars here in Denver are boxy compared the sleek beautiful ones in Jerusalem. Now I see these new commuter rail cars (which are uglier than the light rail ones) and I have given up hope that I’ll see an aesthetics revolution here in my lifetime. At the end of the day, American companies (Apple and Tesla excluded) just don’t really care about setting the world on fire when it comes to design. Oh, there are some artists who care, but generally, the public doesn’t, and are happy with pickup truck styling.
 
I do really love the styling of the N700 Shinkansen: http://www.realrailway.com/photo/1024/tc_tecn700z.jpg.

And the ICE3 Baureihe 403: http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/ice3-offenburg-siegburg-als-ice-211731.jpg.

I know people do commute on those.

I do disagree with the OP in that the four examples he quoted were not good-looking at all, IMO. This Desiro seems better: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=239482.

Also, the example he quoted as being "ugly" was an Alstom design, wasn't it?
 
As a rider I am much more overly concerned on what the interior of a train is like then the exterior. A good paint job can do the exterior wonders.

Some interior designs I really like:

The OeBB (an now CZ) RailJet is a stellar design, and one I think would work well over here in the states. It's essentially a locomotive-hauled high speed train, with a cab car on one end. But it look nice from both the interior and exterior.

2nd Class:

railjet_inside-2nd-class.jpg


1st Class:

Railjet_03.jpg


The DB ICE3 (Siemens Velaro) is also really nicely designed.

2nd class (looking on to 1st class):

ICE3_2.Klasse_Bild1_2010-07-03.jpg


Vesibule:

800_rlmquyp7uo7mkciw9rrgnnktmztsn0m3.jpg


Cafe counter:

3648102454_1632aa302e_m.jpg


As for commuters, or even metro. London Underground's new S-Stock is really quite nice:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/LUL-S-Stock-special-needs-car.jpg/640px-LUL-S-Stock-special-needs-car.jpg

Siemens has an ULF Tram (Ultra Low Floor) which is used in Vienna and Romania. Which again I think would be a great product to bring straight over here, especially for a tram system just starting up, as it's designed to have it's floor flush with the curb, so no need to build stations. The interior is a little more utilitarian, but still seems very much 'designed'. Whereas most american trains's interiors seem committee botched.

(I can't find an interior, so here is an exterior picture)

http://www.railjournal.com/media/k2/items/cache/8f9b49a7993ed80d42c489170ed36ea2_XL.jpg

peter
 
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