Comparative reliability of Amtrak's locos

[unitedstatesfan]

What is the reliability (kilometres between adverse 'failure' incidents) for each of Amtrak's classes of diesel or electric mainline locomotives such as its P42DC, fleet numbers #-1-207?

Of the diesels, do the crews prefer a particular class?

Are the locos ever swapped between depots or do they tend to be, except when requiring a major overhaul, captive at a particular base such as Chicago or Los Angeles?

Does Amtrak typically have a spare loco at depots near stations such as New Orleans, Portland, Seattle or Tampa in case one engine becomes unserviceable?

 

[greatcats]

A spare locomotive used to be kept in Albuquerque, but that does not seem to have been the case for probably a couple of years at least. Too many of them damaged in grade crossing accidents, among other things. When they break down these days, all too common, a freight locomotive is borrowed from BNSF, which must operate at a reduced speed, losing more time.

 

[unitedstatesfan]

Provided the track allows it, are BNSF (and UP) freight locos typically allowed a maximum speed of 60mph (100kmh) when hauling passenger trains?

 

[A Voice]

Provided the track allows it, are BNSF (and UP) freight locos typically allowed a maximum speed of 60mph (100kmh) when hauling passenger trains?

A freight locomotive is usually geared for a maximum speed of around 70 (technically 71 if recall correctly), though exceptions do exist.

 

[Acela150]

Many T&E crews will call any engine. Diesel, electric, or both "trash". Simply of their performance. Engineers know more about Engine performance then conductors. Freight or Passenger. I've had SD70ACe units just die while starting up from a dead stop. Those units for NS are relatively new still. 2-4 years old. Turned out the unit that was written up and should have been out of service for repair. But they put it out on a train anyway.

 

[Hal]

What is the reliability (kilometres between adverse 'failure' incidents) for each of Amtrak's classes of diesel or electric mainline locomotives such as its P42DC, fleet numbers #-1-207?

Of the diesels, do the crews prefer a particular class?

Are the locos ever swapped between depots or do they tend to be, except when requiring a major overhaul, captive at a particular base such as Chicago or Los Angeles?

Does Amtrak typically have a spare loco at depots near stations such as New Orleans, Portland, Seattle or Tampa in case one engine becomes unserviceable?

Some stations have protect locomotives on standby. I don't know which ones. New Orleans probably. Miami probably. Not Tampa. At Stanford and Lorton. Many Amtrak diesel powered trains run with two locomotives so if one fails they can make it on the other.

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[Hal]

Many T&E crews will call any engine. Diesel, electric, or both "trash". Simply of their performance. Engineers know more about Engine performance then conductors. Freight or Passenger. I've had SD70ACe units just die while starting up from a dead stop. Those units for NS are relatively new still. 2-4 years old. Turned out the unit that was written up and should have been out of service for repair. But they put it out on a train anyway.

Some units are known as crap. The engineers know more but conductors who pay attention to the engine numbers know which units are prone to failure. They tend to repeat the same fails.

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[jis]

On the Atlantic Coast service only the Silver Meteor runs with two engines. Everything else runs with a single engine and mostly they seem to do fine.

 

[Hal]

On the Atlantic Coast service only the Silver Meteor runs with two engines. Everything else runs with a single engine and mostly they seem to do fine.

Because they don't have enough engines to run with two.

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[jis]

I have wondered why in the US two engines are needed for just 10 to 12 car trains when elsewhere in the world huge passenger rail system seem to run mostly with one locomotive for upto 20 or more car trains. Are American locomotives really that much more unreliable and that poorly maintained compared to elsewhere?

 

[Hal]

I have wondered why in the US two engines are needed for just 10 to 12 car trains when elsewhere in the world huge passenger rail system seem to run mostly with one locomotive for upto 20 or more car trains. Are American locomotives really that much more unreliable and that poorly maintained compared to elsewhere?

I don't think so. I believe it is because of the rail infrastructure. On a rail corridor like the the NEC if an engine does break down a replacement engine can be dispatched from relatively close by from an Amtrak yard. There are also work crews that can rescue trains. And don't forget you have to have an engineer to bring that engine. Crew is available on the NEC. So two engines are not normally used on the NEC. One engine pulls the Silver Meteor on the NEC. Off of the NEC there is no close by Amtrak base. Crew might be hours away or not even available. Other parts of the world that use one engine likely have NEC type infrastructure in their whole country. Also on the NEC or a hugh rail system you have another train coming shortly that can transfer the passengers. Off the NEC it might not be another train until the next day. You kind of answered your own question when you said they have a hugh passenger rail system.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I have wondered why in the US two engines are needed for just 10 to 12 car trains when elsewhere in the world huge passenger rail system seem to run mostly with one locomotive for upto 20 or more car trains. Are American locomotives really that much more unreliable and that poorly maintained compared to elsewhere?

I don't think so. I believe it is because of the rail infrastructure. On a rail corridor like the the NEC if an engine does break down a replacement engine can be dispatched from relatively close by from an Amtrak yard. There are also work crews that can rescue trains. And don't forget you have to have an engineer to bring that engine. Crew is available on the NEC. So two engines are not normally used on the NEC. One engine pulls the Silver Meteor on the NEC. Off of the NEC there is no close by Amtrak base. Crew might be hours away or not even available. Other parts of the world that use one engine likely have NEC type infrastructure in their whole country. Also on the NEC or a hugh rail system you have another train coming shortly that can transfer the passengers. Off the NEC it might not be another train until the next day. You kind of answered your own question when you said they have a hugh passenger rail system.

Also on some trains, the second locomotive may be used due to steep grades. That is why they took the second units of the LSL and SS first, as they are both flat routes.

 

[jis]

Actually elsewhere if a second engine is required for a grade it is just hooked on for the grade segment and taken off after that. It does not make any sense to send a second engine on a cross country trek for just a grade or two here and there.

Hal's point about lack of or thinned out support structure is the most likely reason.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Actually elsewhere if a second engine is required for a grade it is just hooked on for the grade segment and taken off after that. It does not make any sense to send a second engine on a cross country trek for just a grade or two here and there.

Hal's point about lack of or thinned out support structure is the most likely reason.

Isn't that where Helper, UT got it's name? From the fact that it is a base for helper engines? Or am I misremembering something I read years ago?

 

[Agent]

Actually elsewhere if a second engine is required for a grade it is just hooked on for the grade segment and taken off after that. It does not make any sense to send a second engine on a cross country trek for just a grade or two here and there.

Hal's point about lack of or thinned out support structure is the most likely reason.

Isn't that where Helper, UT got it's name? From the fact that it is a base for helper engines? Or am I misremembering something I read years ago?

Looks like that's why it was named.

 

[Thirdrail7]

What is the reliability (kilometres between adverse 'failure' incidents) for each of Amtrak's classes of diesel or electric mainline locomotives such as its P42DC, fleet numbers #-1-207?

Of the diesels, do the crews prefer a particular class?

Are the locos ever swapped between depots or do they tend to be, except when requiring a major overhaul, captive at a particular base such as Chicago or Los Angeles?

Does Amtrak typically have a spare loco at depots near stations such as New Orleans, Portland, Seattle or Tampa in case one engine becomes unserviceable?

The P42s outnumber every piece of equipment. There are places that may not see anything other than P42s. Therefore, there may not be a basis for comparison.

The diesel fleet is not confined. They land where they land.

As indicated, there are protects in various locations but they pale in comparison to the territory covered.

Actually elsewhere if a second engine is required for a grade it is just hooked on for the grade segment and taken off after that. It does not make any sense to send a second engine on a cross country trek for just a grade or two here and there.

Hal's point about lack of or thinned out support structure is the most likely reason.

Financial structure is likelier. As you previously indicated in another thread, adding/dropping equipment en route is requires employees.. Unfortunately, employees tend to expect payment for their services. Additionally, you need storage and facilities for the locomotives. It is often easier to bring the unit along for protection if needed. Most trains with multiple units have them isolated for portions of the trip anyway.

 

[jis]

Yup. That is what I meant by lack of or thinned out support structure. The reason for it is cost saving. It is cheaper to run up otherwise unnecessary miles on a piece of equipment than maintain enroute support structure which involves paying salaries.

 

[seat38a]

I have wondered why in the US two engines are needed for just 10 to 12 car trains when elsewhere in the world huge passenger rail system seem to run mostly with one locomotive for upto 20 or more car trains. Are American locomotives really that much more unreliable and that poorly maintained compared to elsewhere?

On the SWC when our lead engine went bad and had to ditch it and continue with only 1, the power was shut off in the train for the climb up to Cajon Summit. 1 Amtrak engine seems not to be able to provide HEP and motion power on hills. I'm guessing with electrified lines, HEP is not an issue since all the juice needed is being drawn from the power line. Diesels in other countries, I have no idea.

 

[Hal]

On the SWC when our lead engine went bad and had to ditch it and continue with only 1, the power was shut off in the train for the climb up to Cajon Summit. 1 Amtrak engine seems not to be able to provide HEP and motion power on hills. I'm guessing with electrified lines, HEP is not an issue since all the juice needed is being drawn from the power line. Diesels in other countries, I have no idea.

Cajun Summit........there are not any elevations like that on the NEC.

On a hot or cold day on the NEC with all the HVAC kicking in at once for some years sometimes had to turn off the HVAC in some coaches on long trains, then back on because it would bring down the HEP when they came on together. Then someone figured out to put the HVAC on timers or something like that so they didn't kick on at once. That pretty much solved that.

 

[Dave Van]

On my trip Jan 2015 aboard the SWC Chicago to LA we lost our lead loco due to fuel gel shortly after departure. Cause was due to Chicago minus zero temps. The entire trip was then lead by a BNSF war bonnet unit. We left 5 hours late and ended up 7 hours late into LA.....not sure weather lead unit speed limit had anything to do with it or not. But the Chief lead by a Santa Fe unit???

 

[jis]

The amount of padding that exist in the LD schedules is quite huge. A freight unit should cause only a few hours of delay if everything else goes well.

I learned this weekend through observation of actual performance that there is roughly one and a half hours of net padding between Raleigh and Kissimmee in the schedule of the Silver Star!

A lot depends on how much time is eaten up for station work. On heavy travel days that tends to eat up a lot of time.

On the trip out to Raleigh heat restrictions got us to being more than an hour late out of JAX, and still we made it into RGH just ten minutes or so down, after crawling most of the way between Hamlet and Southern Pines, for reasons unknown to me.

 

[PVD]

The second part of the issue is that since we have gone the HEP route, a freight unit by itself is not sufficient. You still need a unit that can put out HEP even if it won't run traction.

Unlike other parts of the world that you have helped to educate us about, we don't have axle generators or power cars.

 

[jis]

The second part of the issue is that since we have gone the HEP route, a freight unit by itself is not sufficient. You still need a unit that can put out HEP even if it won't run traction.

Unlike other parts of the world that you have helped to educate us about, we don't have axle generators or power cars.

That is indeed an interesting issue. In India LD trains either have what is called End On Generation (EOG), which means it has one or more Generator Cars in the train which provides hotel power independent of the locomotive, or the consist is entirely axle generated power in each individual car, with the AC cars having huge banks of battery for supplying power during stops. It is only recently that Head On Generation (HOG) where hotel power is supplied by the engine is being introduced, but even in those cases the consist usually retains one EOG car, since typically the EOG car is a combined EOG, Luggage and Guard (Conductor) car.

With the only source of hotel power being the locomotive, that increases the need for having two on each train specially when you are many many hours away from any substitute engine. However, still, in a well maintained system engine failures should not happen so often as for it to become a huge issue provided replacements are available within a few hours. Unfortunately in the US, the only set of routes that fit such a description are the Atlantic Coast routes and the Crescent route upto Atlanta, and maybe with a it of a stretch the East Coast to Chicago route (except the Cardinal), specially if a couple of additional relief units can be strategically located along the route.

 

[Acela150]

On the trip out to Raleigh heat restrictions got us to being more than an hour late out of JAX, and still we made it into RGH just ten minutes or so down, after crawling most of the way between Hamlet and Southern Pines, for reasons unknown to me.

CSX will constantly put out heat restrictions that will put any train down in the OTP category..

Which brings to mind a quote from a high ranking CSX official during the Conrail merger... "Conrail is over maintained" Something that CSX could seriously benefit from, since they're constantly putting cars on the ground due to "Under Maintaining"... Last I checked, call me crazy, some of the stuff that is carried by rail can kill an entire city if something goes wrong. I would rather make sure I did everything possible to make sure that didn't happen and "over maintain" my railroad then constantly put cars on the ground because I "under maintained" my railroad.

 

[unitedstatesfan]

Caela150, from what I read (I am a foreigner from Australia), CSX is the least cooperative of the big rail operators towards Amtrak.

Does this extend to CSX being reluctant to supplying Amtrak with replacement loco(s) should one be required for a train or multiple trains? Or do they rip Amtrak off at a higher rate per kilometre and per day than say BNSF or UP?