competitive rates

[loco motive]

amtrak needs to get in the game.

their prices just aren't competitive.

my family and i love traveling by rail -- even though it obviously takes longer than a quick plane flight.

but amtrak's fares make it foolish to opt for the slower, less convenient, and more expensive transportation -- just because of the fading nostalgia value.

 

[Tumbleweed]

How's that saying go? Make the journey part of the destination? :giggle:

 

[Ryan]

You're going to have to be more specific. In many cases, Amtrak IS competitive on cost.

 

[zephyr17]

amtrak needs to get in the game.

their prices just aren't competitive.

my family and i love traveling by rail -- even though it obviously takes longer than a quick plane flight.

but amtrak's fares make it foolish to opt for the slower, less convenient, and more expensive transportation -- just because of the fading nostalgia value.

Amtrak charges what the market will bear and has a good load factor. The trains do NOT run empty. Why should the sell the space for less than they can get for it? If you don't like it, don't take it.

 

[Grandpa D]

Last time I made a comparison was in September '10, HOS to MKE for the two of us. Prices were about the same for Continental and Amtrak. HOS to CHI was with a roomette. If I'd known about buckets and Amsnag back then I probably could have gotten a cheaper price on Amtrak.

 

[the_traveler]

amtrak needs to get in the game.

their prices just aren't competitive.

my family and i love traveling by rail -- even though it obviously takes longer than a quick plane flight.

but amtrak's fares make it foolish to opt for the slower, less convenient, and more expensive transportation -- just because of the fading nostalgia value.

If you consider everything, do you still find them less competitive?

Sure you can get from say Chicago to LA via a plane in a few hours or via a train in 3 days/2 nights. If you fly, you have to pay for a hotel for those 2 nights - on the train you don't! If you fly, you have to pay for a rental car for those 3 days - on the train you don't! If you fly, you have to pay for meals for those 3 days. (If you're lucky, you may get a soda and a bag of peanuts on the plane!) I don't know how old you family is, but if they are less then 4'2", you could get a Family Bedroom. With this, you get up to 4 meals per person per day INCLUDED! It may seem a lot, but the accommodation charge is per room, not per person. So if it's $500, that works out to $125 per person!

And one more thing - I find the view at 15' much better than at 30,000'!

 

[busboy]

I think the basic rail rates are quite competitive. In fact, I'm amazed how low they really are. If you feel the prices are too high, you always have the choice to drive, fly, or take a bus. Like someone else said, why should they charge less if the trains are full? More revenue means less money the taxpayer has to fork out to keep the operation running. I'd rather see passengers pay the costs of operation than the tax payers.

 

[Nickrapak]

One of the things you also have to look at when comparing vs. airlines are the taxes and fees that are charged. Sometimes, the fees can add up to be up to 1/2 of the total ticket cost, or more!

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak is generally competitive on cost, with the exception of some really long-distance runs, and particularly on the low bucket. A good example is WAS-CHI on the Capitol Limited: Compared with an extra night in a hotel to make a late-morning meeting, airfare, cab fare, and the meals, I distinctly recall coming out ahead...and that was on my share of a split hotel room in downtown Chicago versus a last-minute purchase, IIRC. The other exception tends to be on the Acela (where you're paying for the high speed train and so forth)...and there, you're usually getting to your destination a bit faster (WAS-NYP and NYP-BOS are both competitive with air travel, downtown-to-downtown).

The market is bearing some rather unpleasant things at the moment, but a lot of this is capacity-related. With the fact that roomettes are going for $500+ on the Florida trains, and bedrooms for $1000+ (one way!), I will dare say that capacity is the problem (particularly with sleepers), not cost.

 

[volkris]

It goes back to the old question about whether trains are primarily transportation or recreation. Be careful about emphasizing the "journey is the destination" point of view; taxpayers aren't so keen to subsidize peoples' rolling vacations.

Plus, I don't think most of the population is very interested in spending half their vacations on trains instead of at the real destination with the family and friends they were traveling to see, especially if they have to pay the same or more to get there.

So what's the solution for Amtrak? There may not be one.

 

[Ryan]

So what's the solution for Amtrak? There may not be one.

First you have to specify what the problem is. As Zephyr17 pointed out, trains are running full to nearly full at these prices. Doesn't sound like there's a problem to me.

 

[rrdude]

It goes back to the old question about whether trains are primarily transportation or recreation. Be careful about emphasizing the "journey is the destination" point of view; taxpayers aren't so keen to subsidize peoples' rolling vacations.

Plus, I don't think most of the population is very interested in spending half their vacations on trains *BINGO!* instead of at the real destination with the family and friends they were traveling to see, especially if they have to pay the same or more to get there.

So what's the solution for Amtrak? There may not be one.

While not so much an argument in favor/against the fares, many railfans tend to put too much emphasis on the "..Well, you save on the cost of hotel when going from WAS to CHI on the Cap.........." Ah yeah. You also LOSE about 12 hours (or so) vs. flying. Don't get me wrong I myself use that argument (save on hotel) to justify some of my business trips via Amtrak.

But in the last 30 days, I've had to travel from WAS to Minot, WAS to El Paso, WAS to Kansas City, WAS to Atlantic City, NJ. Tomorrow I'm going WAS to Davenport, Iowa and next week WAS to Raleigh, NC. In only one case did rail make economic or travel time sense, and that was WAS to Atlantic City, NJ. (I traveled exclusively on Continental, so at least I'm indirectly earning AGR points, just not rail points)

Trust me, I used AmSnag, and planned a sample itinerary for every trip via rail. But if I choose to go via rail, the time is just too long, and the cost (when u include a sleeper) is just too high, But mostly it's the time factor that kills me.

Case in point: Tomorrow I have to be in Davenport, IA in the afternoon. I could take the CAP (in fact I was reserved for today) but would have missed my son's basketball awards tonight, and had to rent a car out of Chicago, or suburban Chicago. As it is, I have to end up flying into ORD, then to the Quad Cities airport. Go to the trade show tomorrow day/nite, overnight in the Quad Cities, and fly home to BWI Tuesday AM.

What was really disappointing was the WAS Raleigh, NC trip. Amtrak's COACH fare is $58, (add $24 for Biz Class) and I have to LEAVE BWI at 7:46AM, (or as late as 9:14AM) and don't get into RGH until 4:42PM, a whole day out of the office...... Or (and this really sux) fly SWA, for $69.70 (all taxes & fees incl.) spend less than one hour in the air, add an hour for check in and security, no checked bag, so don't have to wait....but DO have to add cab fare to downtown Raleigh.......

Unless it's on the NE corridor, and I include Richmond in that now, (with what 9 daily trips to Richmond now, that's great) I have to burn DAYS on the train, and the strain that puts on the wife and family (Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, Lacrosse, Soccer, Dance, Rotary Club, Yard-Work, House-Work, etc., etc.)

 

[had8ley]

Not to sound like a broken record but it seems our fellow traveler has run into what I found about a month ago. Amtrak has totally eliminated the lower two buckets on many LD trains and three buckets on popular trains for the rest of the summer. He just may have a legitimate beef but Amtrak has to pay for the new car order and Congress is one day going to stop shelling out billions in subsidies.

 

[AlanB]

It goes back to the old question about whether trains are primarily transportation or recreation. Be careful about emphasizing the "journey is the destination" point of view; taxpayers aren't so keen to subsidize peoples' rolling vacations.

While you're correct that some people don't like subsidizing other's vacations, the problem is that Amtrak critics make it a point to mention that while failing to mention that no matter how you travel to take your vacation the taxpayer is still helping to pay for it. You can't fly or drive, much less take the train, without partaking of a taxpayer subsidy.

 

[BobWeaver]

amtrak needs to get in the game.

their prices just aren't competitive.

my family and i love traveling by rail -- even though it obviously takes longer than a quick plane flight.

but amtrak's fares make it foolish to opt for the slower, less convenient, and more expensive transportation -- just because of the fading nostalgia value.

I'm unsure if you're talking about coach class or the price of sleeper compartments. Prices for base coach fare on a long distance train are usually pretty competitive, especially in the lowest buckets. If it's the latter, Amtrak still manages to sell out trains at these prices, so although it may be above your cost threshold, there are others who will pay that price.

Sure you can get from say Chicago to LA via a plane in a few hours or via a train in 3 days/2 nights. If you fly, you have to pay for a hotel for those 2 nights - on the train you don't! If you fly, you have to pay for a rental car for those 3 days - on the train you don't! If you fly, you have to pay for meals for those 3 days. (If you're lucky, you may get a soda and a bag of peanuts on the plane!) I don't know how old you family is, but if they are less then 4'2", you could get a Family Bedroom. With this, you get up to 4 meals per person per day INCLUDED! It may seem a lot, but the accommodation charge is per room, not per person. So if it's $500, that works out to $125 per person!

I think your argument is slightly misguided, as you somehow connect flying with being obligated to be in LA for 2 nights/3 days longer. Assuming someone wants to spend the same number of days in LA regardless of travel method, there is no extra cost inherent in flying as you say there is. In fact, Amtrak would almost certainly be the higher cost method, especially if the passenger opts for a sleeping compartment. There is no "paying for a hotel for those 2 nights" or "paying for a rental car for those 3 days" if he or she will be in LA for the same amount of time. Amtrak would involve departing Chicago 2 days earlier, arriving back 2 days later, and significant more cost if sleeping compartments are purchased.

 

[amamba]

Maybe it is just because I am not hitting low bucket fares, but amtrak is considerably more expensive than flying for my next trip to Philly from Providence. Again, I chose to book the acela trip instead of the plane trip on southwest because I just didn't feel like dealing with the airport (I *loathe* the philadelphia airport more than most), but it was practically double the cost to take amtrak instead of flying. And the train will still take more time, even when accounting for arriving at the airport 90 minutes early, because it is just such a short flight (about an hour).

However, I do believe that amtrak generally has a price advantage in coach on the LD routes, and also on the less popular NEC regional trains. Low bucket coach on a NE regional PHL - PVD is almost certainly less than a plane ticket. But I have rarely seen the low bucket price available when I go to book. And actually, the buckets had gone so high when I did book my tickets for my May trip that it only cost $20 more to book acela over the NE regional.

 

[Ispolkom]

There still are trips that are best made by train, even if you are willing to put up with the hassle of flying. Travel on most of the Empire Builder's route, for instance. Sure, the train has often been late or even canceled this winter, but do you think that driving was any easier?

While it would make more sense to most people to fly from Chicago to Seattle, look at intermediate destinations. I often travel St. Paul-Minot, and in that case I have three choices: drive 10 hours each way (wasting two days' vacation), pay Delta's monopolistic prices ($400-$600) to sit in a nasty little regional jet, or take the Empire Builder overnight for $110-120 (round-trip). It's not a tough choice. I imagine that there's a fair amount of travel on most long-distance trains that is similar.

 

[had8ley]

It goes back to the old question about whether trains are primarily transportation or recreation. Be careful about emphasizing the "journey is the destination" point of view; taxpayers aren't so keen to subsidize peoples' rolling vacations.

While you're correct that some people don't like subsidizing other's vacations, the problem is that Amtrak critics make it a point to mention that while failing to mention that no matter how you travel to take your vacation the taxpayer is still helping to pay for it. You can't fly or drive, much less take the train, without partaking of a taxpayer subsidy.

While I agree with you Alan the biggest point that Amtrak detracters bring up is the number of pax handled compared to plane, bus or auto.

 

[eagle628]

Just speaking out of personal experience here, I find Amtrak's fares quite competetive with flying. Taking Ethan Allen/Silver Meteor to Florida in a week or so, the price (in coach, mind you) was a bit more than half of the cheapest airfare available. Coach class fare tends to equal or better, in most cases, the lowest class of flying (though on longer trips the cost of food onboard the train might make it higher, I don't know).

 

[dlagrua]

If you compare airline coach travel to Amtrak coach travel, the rail prices should be lower most of the time. If you add a roomette or bedroom and the meals that go with the sleeper fare, then the airline coach cost may be lower. To be fair about it, you should not be comparing a trip in a sleeper to a low cost coach fare on an airline. They limit you on luggage and require you to pay for it, they don't give you a bed and they don't include any meals but worse of all you have some ignorant low life creep feeling you up, looking at your whole family naked and reducing you to servitude. Go to the airport and look at the way the TSA thugs are treating their slaves (the airline passenger) then tell me thats the better way to go. I'd pay double to take the train as long as they continue to resist this insulting and degrading type of dehumanization.

 

[BobWeaver]

Just speaking out of personal experience here, I find Amtrak's fares quite competetive with flying. Taking Ethan Allen/Silver Meteor to Florida in a week or so, the price (in coach, mind you) was a bit more than half of the cheapest airfare available. Coach class fare tends to equal or better, in most cases, the lowest class of flying (though on longer trips the cost of food onboard the train might make it higher, I don't know).

I hope you make that connection at NYP. #290 doesn't have exactly stellar OTP (31% in February, 41% over the last 12 months).

While I agree with you Alan the biggest point that Amtrak detracters bring up is the number of pax handled compared to plane, bus or auto.

Can you blame them?

 

[eagle628]

Just speaking out of personal experience here, I find Amtrak's fares quite competetive with flying. Taking Ethan Allen/Silver Meteor to Florida in a week or so, the price (in coach, mind you) was a bit more than half of the cheapest airfare available. Coach class fare tends to equal or better, in most cases, the lowest class of flying (though on longer trips the cost of food onboard the train might make it higher, I don't know).

I hope you make that connection at NYP. #290 doesn't have exactly stellar OTP (31% in February, 41% over the last 12 months).

The feeling is mutual, believe me.

 

[BobWeaver]

If you compare airline coach travel to Amtrak coach travel, the rail prices should be lower most of the time. If you add a roomette or bedroom and the meals that go with the sleeper fare, then the airline coach cost may be lower. To be fair about it, you should not be comparing a trip in a sleeper to a low cost coach fare on an airline. They limit you on luggage and require you to pay for it, they don't give you a bed and they don't include any meals but worse of all you have some ignorant low life creep feeling you up, looking at your whole family naked and reducing you to servitude. Go to the airport and look at the way the TSA thugs are treating their slaves (the airline passenger) then tell me thats the better way to go. I'd pay double to take the train as long as they continue to resist this insulting and degrading type of dehumanization.

JetBlue and Southwest still do not charge for a checked bag, and in Southwest's case, for a second one.

TSA pat-downs only occur when somebody sets off the metal detector or AIT machine (which most airports don't even have). If you just do what you're supposed to, you won't set off either one and you'll be through the actual checkpoint itself in 3 minutes or less. From all of the negative publicity it received about the AIT machines, TSA started testing new software in February that will now display any potential threat items on a generic body outline (see towards the bottom of the page for revised images shown to screeners here and official press release here), which will address the complaint that you and hundreds of other travelers have had.

I hope you make that connection at NYP. #290 doesn't have exactly stellar OTP (31% in February, 41% over the last 12 months).

The feeling is mutual, believe me.

You may consider revising your departure and driving to Albany in order to catch an Empire Service train that would put you into NYP with better OTP.

 

[had8ley]

Just speaking out of personal experience here, I find Amtrak's fares quite competetive with flying. Taking Ethan Allen/Silver Meteor to Florida in a week or so, the price (in coach, mind you) was a bit more than half of the cheapest airfare available. Coach class fare tends to equal or better, in most cases, the lowest class of flying (though on longer trips the cost of food onboard the train might make it higher, I don't know).

I hope you make that connection at NYP. #290 doesn't have exactly stellar OTP (31% in February, 41% over the last 12 months).

While I agree with you Alan the biggest point that Amtrak detracters bring up is the number of pax handled compared to plane, bus or auto.

Can you blame them?

I'd like to...if we had high speed rail nationwide there would be a few less airlines and more frequent service on the rails. If only we could bring back the Slumbercoaches (the SCA could work two at a time and not have to make up beds unless the room is double or triple sold en route; the terminating station's coach cleaners could strip and re-make the beds)The Acela first class is the closest we come to parlor car service and every time I've ridden it has been full. How many non-NEC residents have ever ridden it let alone seen it? One thing I would do that a large majority of businesses have done for years~ put cameras in the diner and lounge car for the crews protection as well as the pax. If somebody calls Customer Relations and complains about the diner closing at 7 p.m. on a LD train there would be no room for error if the tape was reviewed.If the LSA says the pax was beligerent all that has to be done is re-play the tape. It's a win-win for both sides.I can hear the howls at the union hall now.....

 

[BobWeaver]

I'd like to...if we had high speed rail nationwide there would be a few less airlines and more frequent service on the rails. If only we could bring back the Slumbercoaches (the SCA could work two at a time and not have to make up beds unless the room is double or triple sold en route; the terminating station's coach cleaners could strip and re-make the beds)The Acela first class is the closest we come to parlor car service and every time I've ridden it has been full. How many non-NEC residents have ever ridden it let alone seen it? One thing I would do that a large majority of businesses have done for years~ put cameras in the diner and lounge car for the crews protection as well as the pax. If somebody calls Customer Relations and complains about the diner closing at 7 p.m. on a LD train there would be no room for error if the tape was reviewed.If the LSA says the pax was beligerent all that has to be done is re-play the tape. It's a win-win for both sides.I can hear the howls at the union hall now.....

Eh you wouldn't necessarily see a reduction in the number of airlines (currently 9 in the US, 2 of which are relatively small), but you would see a reduction of shorter regional routes.