Cost of sleeper service

[Big Green Chauvanist]

What I have never understood is when you travel in sleeper service, why do you still have to pay for the coach seat in addition? Why pay for something you don't use? It seems to me Amtrak is "double-dipping" in getting coach fares paid twice for each sleeper passenger.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

You're not paying for a Coach seat, you're paying the basic railfare, which is Coach. Then in addition to the Coach fare comes the accommodation charge, which is the cost of all the sleeper amenities over and above the basic - Coach - railfare.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Pre Amtrak pricing was usually done in the same way-basic rail fare with Pullman/Sleeper surcharge.

 

[VentureForth]

Japanese railroads track on additional charges for being an expresses (any long distance train like Amtrak is to say, MARC, etc), an additional fee for reserved seat vs unreserved, first class vs standard class, etc. but EVERYONE pays the basic rail fare - the cost to get from point A to B.

Just standard stuff in the railroad biz. I think Europe and India are similar, too...

 

[caravanman]

Worth mentioning too that when you purchase a sleeper, the railfare portion is added at the lowest bucket price, regardless of the current bucket price of coach seats at time of booking.

Ed

 

[dlagrua]

The Amtrak fare structure doesn't have to make sense. It is what it is. If you can afford it or if it makes sense to you, you buy a ticket and if not you refrain from doing so.

The sleeper adders in today's rail passenger system are typically many times the coach fare. Back when the private railroads and Pullman ran the sleepers, the cost was only a small additional amount above coach fare. The difference is that back then trains had numerous sleepers on them. Some trains like the Santa Fe Chief were all sleeper trains. The cost is high because Amtrak sleeper availability is fewer than the demand for them and Amtrak must maximize revenue to keep Washington off their back.

 

[Ispolkom]

Back when the private railroads and Pullman ran the sleepers, the cost was only a small additional amount above coach fare. The difference is that back then trains had numerous sleepers on them.

The difference is that back then prices and service were set by the ICC. For whatever reason sleeper fares were set broadly comparable to present day ones, but coach prices were set much higher than Amtrak's (adjusted for inflation, of course).

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

What I have never understood is when you travel in sleeper service, why do you still have to pay for the coach seat in addition? Why pay for something you don't use? It seems to me Amtrak is "double-dipping" in getting coach fares paid twice for each sleeper passenger.

Every passenger has to pay for their railfare, regardless of where on the train they will be.

Only one passenger has to pay for each sleeper accommodation (while still paying for heir own railfare). Others can share the accommodation, up to its maximum, without paying anything additional for the accommodation.

 

[ehbowen]

Just for comparison, I priced a trip from Chicago to San Francisco on Union Pacific fifty years ago (February, 1962) and then adjusted it for inflation. The final figures were eye-opening.

In coach: One way adult fare for one passenger $67.39 plus $3.00 seat reservation charge, total $70.39. Adjusted for inflation between 1962 and 2012: $534.67.

One adult passenger in a Roomette: $85.56 first class rail fare plus $33.80 accommodation charge, total $119.36. Adjusted for inflation: $906.63

Two adult passengers in a Bedroom: $171.12 first class rail fares plus $55.05 accommodation charge, total $226.17. Adjusted for inflation: $1717.93.

I'll let you make your own comparisons to current Amtrak fares.

Historical fares from my Streamliner Schedules web site. Inflation calculator from US Inflation Calculator.

 

[the_traveler]

Also, back in the "old days", meals for sleeper passengers were NOT included, unlike on Amtrak today. You had to pay for meals, like a coach passenger does today - even though you had a sleeper.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Also, back in the "old days", meals for sleeper passengers were NOT included, unlike on Amtrak today. You had to pay for meals, like a coach passenger does today - even though you had a sleeper.

True Dave! But the Food was MUCH Better and some of the Menus were fit for a King! There was a thread last year about a Feast on the Panama Express that was Absolutely Astounding and of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great! :wub: Ill admit Inflation has really done a Number on our Society since the 70s but I'd say that the Meals in Diner were more Worth the Cost in the "Old Days" than they are now!Even though lots of members like to put down Coach,the Fares Now are a better deal than the Olden Days!Sleeper Rates are High but no-one forces anyone to Book a Sleeper! <_<

 

[Guest]

Is there a way to compare labor costs from the "old days" to Amtrak adjusted for inflation?

 

[zephyr17]

The Amtrak fare structure doesn't have to make sense. It is what it is. If you can afford it or if it makes sense to you, you buy a ticket and if not you refrain from doing so.

The sleeper adders in today's rail passenger system are typically many times the coach fare. Back when the private railroads and Pullman ran the sleepers, the cost was only a small additional amount above coach fare. The difference is that back then trains had numerous sleepers on them. Some trains like the Santa Fe Chief were all sleeper trains. The cost is high because Amtrak sleeper availability is fewer than the demand for them and Amtrak must maximize revenue to keep Washington off their back.

Not so small, plus the railroads charged a DIFFERENT, and significantly higher, "First Class" rail fare instead of the "coach" fare, which Amtrak does not do. The only way you get sleeping arrangements without the First Class rail fare was in a slumbercoach (which is why it is called that) or Touralux type tourist sleeper.

The additional Pullman accomodation charge on top of the First Class rail fare. It all went to Pullman, and was not a pittance. I have a 1970 UP timetable at home with sample sleeper charges and will double check that.

Sleeping cars were expensive back then, and usually the province of business travelers with expense accounts, which dried up Pullman's business relatively early on.

Your "facts" simply are not facts.

BTW, while the Chief was intially all Pullman, through most of its life it was a coach and Pullman train. The Super Chief was the all Pullman train, although from 1958 on it ran with the coach El Capitan, though they ran as separate sections in summers and during the holidays.

 

[benjibear]

When you redeem AGR, there is only one price and that is for 2 or 3 people in a roomette or sleeper. I am not sure why they couldn't do that for just buying the tickets. I don't think it matters which way you pay for it because you will pay the price no matter what according to the laws of supply and demand.

 

[Ispolkom]

True Dave! But the Food was MUCH Better and some of the Menus were fit for a King! There was a thread last year about a Feast on the Panama Express that was Absolutely Astounding and of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great!

And I'm sure prices were also fit for a king. I doubt that the average meal on a pre-Amtrak train was much better than we get in the dining car now. Remember that most trains weren't all-Pullman luxury trains, like the Panama Limited or the Super Chief. In the real world, the menu probably looked a lot more like this from 1954. Imagine asking the equivalent of $3.84 for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And what do you want to bet that the "Chuck Wagon Beef Stew" at $11.51 was Dinty Moore?

 

[Shanghai]

If I was on that train, I would have ordered the Welch Rabbit (or is that wabbit) with juice, crackers

and a small salad for $1.10 with a head lettuce for .45 and a beaker of Postum for .15. Not a bad meal

for $1.70!!

 

[Tumbleweed]

Well....I'll bet the fares, food and service we are enjoying right now in 2012 on AMTRAK will be talked about as the "good old days" by our young children and grandchildren....

 

[Bob Dylan]

Well....I'll bet the fares, food and service we are enjoying right now in 2012 on AMTRAK will be talked about as the "good old days" by our young children and grandchildren....

Outstanding Post and So True! ^_^

And Ive changed my mind about the "Old Days" in the Diner, when you figure in Inflation, in today's Dollars, the previous Poster is correct, it was probably More Expensive then! <_< Excellent Point also about the "Crack" Trains vs. the "others"! I rode on some SP Trains that were pretty Grim and Long in the Tooth including Consists with the Infamous Automat Car when SP was Running off Passengers fast as they could! :angry2: Still wish Amtrak had better Quality Food and More Consistent Preperation, but thats Politics!!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Backt o the OP, the reason the prices more than double for Sleepers is because Sleepers usually carry half of the pax that coaches do, and there are extra amenities on top of that.

 

[SarahZ]

Is there a way to compare labor costs from the "old days" to Amtrak adjusted for inflation?

Yes.

If someone makes $500/week in 2012, that is the equivalent of $65.83/week in 1962.

 

[TimePeace]

Is there a way to compare labor costs from the "old days" to Amtrak adjusted for inflation?

Yes.

If someone makes $500/week in 2012, that is the equivalent of $65.83/week in 1962.

And I remember as a small boy putting a nickel in a Coke machine. Now it's a buck - but I don't do it any more hahahah.

 

[Ispolkom]

Backt o the OP, the reason the prices more than double for Sleepers is because Sleepers usually carry half of the pax that coaches do, and there are extra amenities on top of that.

No, the reason prices are higher for sleepers is because customers will pay the price. Supply and Demand don't care about cost of providing service.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Backt o the OP, the reason the prices more than double for Sleepers is because Sleepers usually carry half of the pax that coaches do, and there are extra amenities on top of that.

No, the reason prices are higher for sleepers is because customers will pay the price. Supply and Demand don't care about cost of providing service.

Not just because of demand. Even at those pfrices, LD trains continue to lose money.

 

[Ryan]

Yes just because of demand.

The costs mean that you still lose money, but that doesn't factor into pricing decisions.

 

[ehbowen]

True Dave! But the Food was MUCH Better and some of the Menus were fit for a King! There was a thread last year about a Feast on the Panama Express that was Absolutely Astounding and of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great!

And I'm sure prices were also fit for a king. I doubt that the average meal on a pre-Amtrak train was much better than we get in the dining car now. Remember that most trains weren't all-Pullman luxury trains, like the Panama Limited or the Super Chief. In the real world, the menu probably looked a lot more like this from 1954. Imagine asking the equivalent of $3.84 for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And what do you want to bet that the "Chuck Wagon Beef Stew" at $11.51 was Dinty Moore?

I'll take that bet. Back in the day Beef Stew was a specialty of the Fred Harvey system. I'm well aware that this menu is GN and not ATSF, but even so in the days of fully staffed dining car kitchens and food freshly prepared on board I'll wager that this beef stew was a uniquely GN special recipe.

What you conveniently fail to mention while making your point is that the menu you linked to is not even a dining car menu. It's a menu from the Empire Builder's Ranch-Lounge coffee shop, which was specifically intended to provide simpler, lower cost fare to those who wanted a change of pace from the dining car. Elsewhere on that same web site is exactly what we're looking for: A dining car menu from the Western Star, GN's secondary train on the transcontinental run. What do we find there? Broiled Sirloin Steak with Mushroom Caps. Broiled Lamb Chops. Broiled Salmon. Prime Rib. Again, this is GN's secondary train. The defense rests.