Cost of sleeper service

[Ispolkom]

What you conveniently fail to mention while making your point is that the menu you linked to is not even a dining car menu.

Oh, I very well knew what I was linking to. In fact, I never claimed that it was a dining car menu, but only wrote that dining car menus "probably looked a lot more like this." I specifically chose it because its prices were less than the dining car menu's prices, and its selection was, I think, more representative of food service on trains other than the flagship ones. If you can find a menu from the Dakotan, or the Creole, or the Black Diamond, or the Butte Special, I'd love to see it. People tended to keep menus from the big-name trains, and because of that now it's all to easy to imagine that all food on railroads was like that served in the Turquoise Room.

In Twilight of the Great Trains, we find a description of the menu on KCS's Crow in 1963: "'Not a bad menu,' writes Tommy. Continental breakfast is 60 cents, bacon and eggs with toast $1.15, coffee 15 cents. 'There wasn't much choice for 'dinner': Hamburger steak, chef's salad, bread and butter and beverage was $1.35; ham steak and the rest was $1.50. I had the hamburger and it wasn't bad.'"

I doubt, for instance, that the Butte Special's kitchen (by the 60s it was a hot plate in one end of an old 12-section heavyweight sleeper), was up to preparing prime rib.

WRT Fred Harvey stew. Preparing soup from scratch in a train kitchen seems an accident waiting to happen, but I suppose anything is possible.

 

[ehbowen]

I will agree that food service grew much more limited as railroads attempted to cut passenger losses in the '60s. Generally, though, this happened through substitution of cafe-lounges or buffet kitchens with limited preparation capabilities for full diners. Where the full diners remained, the information I have seen indicates that they were still operated to a high standard.

That isn't to say that cost-cutting experiments didn't happen. I came upon a reference in a Railway Age to Pennsy's flirtation with "single selection dining". That is, the dining car prepared ONE entree, and diners could "take it or leave it". (Not strictly, however; there was still an a la carte menu of sandwiches and lighter fare which passengers could order.) This was in the mid-'50s, mind you, not during the free fall of the 1960s. However, the success of this experiment can perhaps be indicated by the fact that I never heard of it in any other media until I did (recently) run across it in that old Railway Age.

ETA:

WRT Fred Harvey stew. Preparing soup from scratch in a train kitchen seems an accident waiting to happen, but I suppose anything is possible.

Let's make the terms of our bet clear. I'm not insisting that the stew was made on board from scratch every trip; it may very well have been started in the commissary and "finished" on board. But I do think we would find that it was GN's own recipe and not a commercial brand like "Dinty Moore".

 

[PaulM]

In addition to the fact that it has been that way since before Amtrak, separating the rail fare from the sleeper surcharge is simpler. You would have to publish separate fares for each level of occupancy; e.g., for 1 person in a roomette and for 2 persons.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Does anybody actually have a, average dining car menu from a long time ago? The menu previously mentioned was probably from the EB, which was by no means an average train.

 

[dn4192]

I will be riding Amtrak for the first time this August from Indy to Nj and back. I am looking forward to both trips, but am a little shocked at the prices if you get a roommet. I mean just a seat isn't bad as the RT ticket will run me about $200 which is cheaper then flying and overall the trip isn't to long, but man to go on a real long trip on Amtrak at the costs of a room is just outside of the price range I could ever afford and wonder given how "training" isn't viewed as special or something many consider here Amtrak stays in business with the rates they charge...

 

[Shanghai]

I will be riding Amtrak for the first time this August from Indy to Nj and back. I am looking forward to both trips, but am a little shocked at the prices if you get a roommet. I mean just a seat isn't bad as the RT ticket will run me about $200 which is cheaper then flying and overall the trip isn't to long, but man to go on a real long trip on Amtrak at the costs of a room is just outside of the price range I could ever afford and wonder given how "training" isn't viewed as special or something many consider here Amtrak stays in business with the rates they charge...

I have made this trip several times in the past few years. The Cardinal is one of the worst trains

for sleeper prices. There is only one sleeper on the Cardinal plus it only runs three times weekly.

Demand for scarce resources dictates price in this situation. However, I have had trips where all

of the sleeper accommodations were sold out and I rode coach, which I found was reasonably comfortable.

Until additional sleepers are added to the train and/or increased frequency of the train, the prices

for sleeper accommodations will likely continue to be high. I hope you have a good trip.

 

[Ispolkom]

I will agree that food service grew much more limited as railroads attempted to cut passenger losses in the '60s. Generally, though, this happened through substitution of cafe-lounges or buffet kitchens with limited preparation capabilities for full diners. Where the full diners remained, the information I have seen indicates that they were still operated to a high standard.

If you're going to separate out all of those trains with cafe-lounges, grill-lounges, grill-observations or the myriad other food service cars on one hand, and full diners on the other, I'd expect that we're in agreement, just using different terms. I'm distinguishing between flagship trains and the large number of other trains. You're distinguishing between trains with full dining cars, and those with some other food service car, which still served hot food.

In any case, I was responding to jimhudson's hyperbole about how great train food was in the glory days. It was on certain trains, but on many, many others the choices were much more limited and the quality? It's hard to say. I'm always suspicious when I encounter claims about how much better things were "back in the day."

 

[zephyr17]

I will agree that food service grew much more limited as railroads attempted to cut passenger losses in the '60s. Generally, though, this happened through substitution of cafe-lounges or buffet kitchens with limited preparation capabilities for full diners. Where the full diners remained, the information I have seen indicates that they were still operated to a high standard.

If you're going to separate out all of those trains with cafe-lounges, grill-lounges, grill-observations or the myriad other food service cars on one hand, and full diners on the other, I'd expect that we're in agreement, just using different terms. I'm distinguishing between flagship trains and the large number of other trains. You're distinguishing between trains with full dining cars, and those with some other food service car, which still served hot food.

In any case, I was responding to jimhudson's hyperbole about how great train food was in the glory days. It was on certain trains, but on many, many others the choices were much more limited and the quality? It's hard to say. I'm always suspicious when I encounter claims about how much better things were "back in the day."

I know even on the same physical consist, the El Capitan diner had a significantly different (and less expensive) menu than the Super Chief diner. Of course, Santa Fe always treated them as two distinct trains that just happened to be coupled together.

Both both diners were very, very good.

 

[ehbowen]

Does anybody actually have a, average dining car menu from a long time ago? The menu previously mentioned was probably from the EB, which was by no means an average train.

The menu I linked to was from the Western Star, which was a secondary train although still operated to a high standard by Great Northern. But for another look at dining car menus of the period, check this link: Erie-Lackawanna from the early 1960s. The E-L, although fondly regarded by partisans, was a minor player compared to the likes of New York Central and the Pennsylvania. However, their dining car selections (you will find breakfast, lunch, and dinner at the link) look to have been quite appetizing.

 

[ehbowen]

I will be riding Amtrak for the first time this August from Indy to Nj and back. I am looking forward to both trips, but am a little shocked at the prices if you get a roommet. I mean just a seat isn't bad as the RT ticket will run me about $200 which is cheaper then flying and overall the trip isn't to long, but man to go on a real long trip on Amtrak at the costs of a room is just outside of the price range I could ever afford and wonder given how "training" isn't viewed as special or something many consider here Amtrak stays in business with the rates they charge...

When comparing Amtrak sleeper prices to flying, the appropriate comparison is NOT first class rail to coach class airliner. You really ought to compare it to first class airfare...and not advance purchase, but changeable and refundable first class airfare. Make that comparison, and Amtrak sleeper service comes off a whale of a lot better.

 

[rrdude]

True Dave! But the Food was MUCH Better and some of the Menus were fit for a King! There was a thread last year about a Feast on the Panama Express that was Absolutely Astounding and of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great!

And I'm sure prices were also fit for a king. I doubt that the average meal on a pre-Amtrak train was much better than we get in the dining car now. Remember that most trains weren't all-Pullman luxury trains, like the Panama Limited or the Super Chief. In the real world, the menu probably looked a lot more like this from 1954. Imagine asking the equivalent of $3.84 for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And what do you want to bet that the "Chuck Wagon Beef Stew" at $11.51 was Dinty Moore?

I would argue with you on that quote, (above in red) until I was dead. Even shortly AFTER Amtrak took over, the meals that Amtrak served in the pre-Heritage diners were so far superior to what they are forced to put out now, an honest comparison is not even possible.

I remember in 77 or 78, being "assigned" to go with the Super Chief's chef (Okay, "SWC") to the Farmers Market in LA during our layover, to get some "special items" that he would use to spice up the commissary issued stock. The meals were infinitely better, prior to Congress butting their noses into the f/s operation.

Imagine, China plates, China bowls, China bread plates, China veggie dishes, fresh flowers, stainless cutlery, (hand-wrapped) and real wine glasses, milk glasses, and cocktail or high-ball glasses, all served on linen, with linen napkins. Salads made to order, (WAY before the "Wedge Salad" of today that is so popular)

Of course, the AC went out a lot, but then again, the cars, BACK THEN were 30-40 years old!

As far as rail travel goes, the "good old days" really WERE, the GOOD OLD DAYS. Too many people today just "settle" for an at-best average, Applelbee's-style meal, and think "this is as good as it gets......."

 

[Ispolkom]

of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great!

the El Capitan diner had a significantly different (and less expensive) menu than the Super Chief diner. Of course, Santa Fe always treated them as two distinct trains that just happened to be coupled together.
Both both diners were very, very good.

I remember in 77 or 78, being "assigned" to go with the Super Chief's chef (Okay, "SWC") to the Farmers Market in LA during our layover, to get some "special items" that he would use to spice up the commissary issued stock. The meals were infinitely better, prior to Congress butting their noses into the f/s operation.

Look, I get it. I understand that the Super Chief was a great train, and you could get fabulous meals in its dining car. I won't deny that the food on the Super Chief was better than what you get on the Southwest Chief. But it was also better than what you got on most trains of *its* era. After all, people of the time commented on how great the Santa Fe food was compared to that served in other railroad dining cars. That's right! There were other trains, with other standards of cuisine, that never seem to get mentioned.

Tell me about the food on the KCS's Flying Crow. How about the Great Northern's Dakotan? How were the breakfasts on the North Shore's Electroliner? Was the food on the Erie Lackawanna as good as its menu makes it sound? Remember SP's automats? Were they better than Amtrak's dining cars? Was the Milwaukee Road food any better than their wretched roadbed?

I'm not going to be convinced about how great food was in railroad dining cars in general if people only mention the food served on a few flagship, mostly all-Pullman trains. That's like proving how great flying is by pointing to how pleasant it is to travel first class on Cathay Pacific. Those of us stuck in a middle seat in the back of a tired 757 might have different views.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

How were the breakfasts on the North Shore's Electroliner?

I don't know that breakfast per se was served aboard the Electroliners, but it's great when someone remembers and mentions these sleek, slick, fast (capable of 110, limited to 90) and beautiful trains. An Electroliner menu, circa 1940s:

 

[Exiled in Express]

What I have never understood is when you travel in sleeper service, why do you still have to pay for the coach seat in addition? Why pay for something you don't use? It seems to me Amtrak is "double-dipping" in getting coach fares paid twice for each sleeper passenger.

I am one that uses Amtrak primarily as transportation, the trip is not the destination, exclusively anyway. I see the rail fare as the transportation and if I opt for the sleeper accommodations I view it as accommodations, same as I would if I stopped at a roadside Holiday Inn.

Interesting that the current Amtrak cafe prices map at ~800% of the 1940s price.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I woul love to pay a bit less to take a E-L train, even if it's heavyweight equipment! As long as there's AC, a Sleeeper, and some hot food, I would pay less for it despite any other drawbacks.

 

[Ispolkom]

How were the breakfasts on the North Shore's Electroliner?

I don't know that breakfast per se was served aboard the Electroliners, but it's great when someone remembers and mentions these sleek, slick, fast (capable of 110, limited to 90) and beautiful trains. An Electroliner menu, circa 1940s:

I've read that the Tavern Lounge served breakfast in the morning commutes, and this menu in the afternoon. What a great menu, and I'm impressed that they serve tongue sandwiches. Young, tender, selected tongue, no less.

Is the reverse side of the menu a drawing of the shovel-nosed front of the Electroliner? That would be so cool!

 

[zephyr17]

of Course the Super Chief Turquise Room/20th Century Ltd.("Hows the Trout?")etc. were Great!

the El Capitan diner had a significantly different (and less expensive) menu than the Super Chief diner. Of course, Santa Fe always treated them as two distinct trains that just happened to be coupled together.
Both both diners were very, very good.

I remember in 77 or 78, being "assigned" to go with the Super Chief's chef (Okay, "SWC") to the Farmers Market in LA during our layover, to get some "special items" that he would use to spice up the commissary issued stock. The meals were infinitely better, prior to Congress butting their noses into the f/s operation.

Look, I get it. I understand that the Super Chief was a great train, and you could get fabulous meals in its dining car. I won't deny that the food on the Super Chief was better than what you get on the Southwest Chief. But it was also better than what you got on most trains of *its* era. After all, people of the time commented on how great the Santa Fe food was compared to that served in other railroad dining cars. That's right! There were other trains, with other standards of cuisine, that never seem to get mentioned.

Tell me about the food on the KCS's Flying Crow. How about the Great Northern's Dakotan? How were the breakfasts on the North Shore's Electroliner? Was the food on the Erie Lackawanna as good as its menu makes it sound? Remember SP's automats? Were they better than Amtrak's dining cars? Was the Milwaukee Road food any better than their wretched roadbed?

I'm not going to be convinced about how great food was in railroad dining cars in general if people only mention the food served on a few flagship, mostly all-Pullman trains. That's like proving how great flying is by pointing to how pleasant it is to travel first class on Cathay Pacific. Those of us stuck in a middle seat in the back of a tired 757 might have different views.

I just mentioned the El Cap, which had a really good diner, and was a COACH ONLY train. Better than Amtrak by a mile. Anything on Santa Fe was, except maybe the automat on the El Pasoan.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Is the reverse side of the menu a drawing of the shovel-nosed front of the Electroliner? That would be so cool!

Looks that way, and here's a whole page of Electroliner railroadiana: North Shore Line Tavern Lounge section.

Menu front.

​

 

[Ispolkom]

I just mentioned the El Cap, which had a really good diner, and was a COACH ONLY train. Better than Amtrak by a mile.

Coach only, EXTRA FARE train, at least in my 1962 official guide. The El Capitan was not quite the Des Moines Rocket, or the Land o' Corn, or the Southern Express. I'd argue that the El Pasoan (or my favorite, the Butte Special with its hot plate diner/section sleeper) was more of the reality of train travel than the El Cap or the Super Chief. Remember, you have to compare apples to apples, not elite trains to a rather mediocre present.

Looks that way

Oh man, jaundiced though I am against excessively cheery views of the past, that Electroliner menu cover is just... excellent. I'd so love to board the 5:03 p.m. Electroliner at Adams St. in the loop and order a tongue sandwich and a gin fizz, as I'm whisked home at 90 mph. Maybe we do live in fallen days.

 

[Anderson]

Well, ignoring the low end of the dregs (the Sunset Automat), I have to wonder how the old coffee shops that some of the roads cut back to compared with Amtrak's cafes. I think that's a reasonably valid comparison to look at. Any takers?

On another front: I've chewed it over, and I really do prefer the railroad fare+accommodation model to the nearest comparison of a lot of cruises that fiddle around with single supplements and triple accommodation fees. It's a lot more straightforward IMHO.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

How many people here have actually taken passenger trains before 1960? I know I haven't. Anybody from back then willing to share their expieriences? Post 1960 all the service went down, not just food.

 

[ehbowen]

How many people here have actually taken passenger trains before 1960? I know I haven't. Anybody from back then willing to share their expieriences? Post 1960 all the service went down, not just food.

That's a pretty broad brush that you paint with, and according to what I've >>heard<< (I wasn't even a glint in Mom's eye in 1960), it's not entirely justified. Based on the reports I've seen from the period....

Southern Pacific was actively trying to get out of the passenger business by any means fair or foul, and did whatever they could to drive pax away.

Southern Railway wanted to keep the Crescent, but every other train was fair game. One of their favorite tricks was to discontinue a small segment which crossed a state line, rendering the train useless to through passengers and making the segments which were left intrastate trains which were not subject to ICC regulation (and thus easier to kill).

By the latter half of the decade Pennsy was just going through the motions; trains were dirty, timekeeping was indifferent, and employees were surly. Things only got worse under Penn Central.

Illinois Central kept up the Panama Limited and City of New Orleans at least through 1968, but after that they too essentially threw in the towel.

Union Pacific kept up a high standard at least until the "City of Everywhere" days in 1970-71.

The California Zephyr remained a class act as long as it ran, but Western Pacific was bleeding red ink and desperately pushing to dump its passenger obligations, which it did in 1970.

MoPac really started to slide after 1965 or so.

The Burlington Northern predecessors (Burlington, Northern Pacific, Great Northern, S. P. & S.) remained largely passenger-friendly up to and even through the merger, but trains were being canceled or combined as quickly as possible.

C. & O./B. & O. remained fairly passenger-friendly as well through almost all of the decade.

Seaboard Coast Line and its predecessors ACL and SAL discontinued some trains, but everything they kept was well-run all the way up to A-day.

The Santa Fe, as usual, was in a class by itself. It did discontinue most of its short hops as well as the original Chief after the Post Office took the mail off the rails in 1967, but everything it kept—the Super Chief/El Capitan, San Francisco Chief, Texas Chief, San Diegans; heck, even the Tulsan and the ex-Grand Canyon—was run to the highest possible standard all the way to A-day.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

How many people here have actually taken passenger trains before 1960? I know I haven't. Anybody from back then willing to share their expieriences? Post 1960 all the service went down, not just food.

Quite a few people on here are old timers. I was born in 1944 and have 64,000 pre Amtrack miles plus pre Via. Do not ask me how many Amtrak miles because I am way behind in calculating it but it is a lot more than that.

I lived with my head in the sand back then refusing to believe that one day most LD trains would be gone. I do not have the mind for details that so many have.Which means I did not notice things as much as I wish I had.

First I would reinforce not comparing a standard diner with a coffee shop lounge. They served different purposes.

People who have read my stuff for years know that I do not automatically think that everything was better back then. Not at all. But I truly do believe the standard dining car service was better.

Do not forget regional variety,so much more than now.

I remember the big water pitures, finger bowls, better in so many ways. Often beautiful menus even named as specific to an actual train. My sister has held back a beautiful glossy menu from Southern and Norfolk and Western's Pelican. What is noteworthy about that is that the Pelican was a very average or even below average train yet it merited a personalized menu. (not to be confused with the time when she fell through the Pelican when its diner was being removed in Birmingham and nobody had locked the door)

Of course not many people ate the menu that I noticed but I cite that as an example of how much attention the railroads paid toward good dining service.

Some railroads prominently noted what farms,etc, its meats, veggie,etc were bought from. Hometown L&N advertised its hams from a specific farm in Kentucky.I suspect this was for all of their dining cars, not just the streamliners.

Not sure if this is relevant but keep in mind that most lounge cars back then didn't serve much food like they do now. And we did not have coffee and juice in the sleepers which is something done much better now.

Speaking of coffee my parents swore up and down that railroad dining car coffee was far above average. My father could hardly stand coffee until he had it on The Georgian. He then praised train coffee the rest of his life. This was at a time when I had scarcely begun to drink coffee.

Bottom line, I am still tasting in a good way that lambchop and green marmalade breakfast on the Super Chief.

 

[jis]

Japanese railroads track on additional charges for being an expresses (any long distance train like Amtrak is to say, MARC, etc), an additional fee for reserved seat vs unreserved, first class vs standard class, etc. but EVERYONE pays the basic rail fare - the cost to get from point A to B.

Just standard stuff in the railroad biz. I think Europe and India are similar, too...

No. India is not similar. In India there are separate tariffs for each class of travel and train class (Passenger vs. Mail/Express) and even for specific trains like Rajdhanis and Shatabdis. They are not presented as basic transportation plus surcharge, but as a lump-sum.

 

[zephyr17]

Japanese railroads track on additional charges for being an expresses (any long distance train like Amtrak is to say, MARC, etc), an additional fee for reserved seat vs unreserved, first class vs standard class, etc. but EVERYONE pays the basic rail fare - the cost to get from point A to B.

Just standard stuff in the railroad biz. I think Europe and India are similar, too...

No. India is not similar. In India there are separate tariffs for each class of travel and train class (Passenger vs. Mail/Express) and even for specific trains like Rajdhanis and Shatabdis. They are not presented as basic transportation plus surcharge, but as a lump-sum.

Via no longer breaks out rail and accommodation, and their prices are quoted per person, not per accommodation. Personally, I like the traditional rail fare + accommodation that Amtrak uses.