Crescent discussion

[BarryATL]

I guess I could put up with poor service and food - but the schedule change means catching a train at midnight or later (sometimes much later, like 7 a.m.) and spending most of the next day on the train, instead of getting stuff done in DC.

The new schedule is terrible. With the old schedule going north, I would get on in Atlanta at 7:30 or so and get last seating in the diner. The arrival in DC was between 9 and 10 AM which meant the train was truly an overnight train that left a major metro in the evening and arrived in the morning. Now, the train leaves Atlanta around midnight and arrives in DC mid-afternoon. Basically, the day in DC is gone already. Oh, and that is if the train is on time, but that is a post for another day.

 

[jimdex]

I guess I could put up with poor service and food - but the schedule change means catching a train at midnight or later (sometimes much later, like 7 a.m.) and spending most of the next day on the train, instead of getting stuff done in DC.

I agree that the schedule change has made the Crescent much less desirable for Atlanta passengers, and I have to believe it's hurt patronage.

 

[user 29618]

It's almost as if Amtrak makes a list of things to change (whether change is needed or not), and then chooses the worst option each time.

 

[niemi24s]

I agree that the schedule change has made the Crescent much less desirable for Atlanta passengers, and I have to believe it's hurt patronage.

Don't know when the schedule change went in effect, but this. . .https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1712/atl.pdf . . .shows a 39% decrease in total ridership between FY 2019 and FY 2020. But how much of this is due to the schedule change is hard (for me, at least) to say - some of it may also be due to crew attitude, food quality and other factors (such as carrying capacity).

Note that the RPA bar graph shows a consistent downward trend. FY 2022 ended 30 Sep 2022, so that ridership data should soon be available to us. Maybe. Hopefully.

 

[blueman271]

Don't know when the schedule change went in effect, but this. . .https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1712/atl.pdf . . .shows a 39% decrease in total ridership between FY 2019 and FY 2020. But how much of this is due to the schedule change is hard (for me, at least) to say - some of it may also be due to crew attitude, food quality and other factors (such as carrying capacity).

Note that the RPA bar graph shows a consistent downward trend. FY 2022 ended 30 Sep 2022, so that ridership data should soon be available to us. Maybe. Hopefully.

There was a major pandemic and a few months without trains in FY20. That might have something to do with lesser ridership that year.

 

[TheVig]

I live in CLT. I liked it when 20 hit around 230am. That would put us in PHL or NYP around noon, give or take. However given the constant holdups between NOL and ATL made on time reliability into CLT painful at best. Then the schedule changed. Things improved somewhat. However it never failed, anytime we booked 20, it was severely late anyway.

So instead of spending our money on roomettes or bedrooms, we are spending it on business class on Carolinian 80. Much more reliable as far as on time performance is concerned. Of course it helps that 80 originates from CLT.

I would like to see Amtrak go back to 20’s old schedule. But it would require Amtrak to grow a pair of balls and take the freights to task concerning on time performance.

 

[lordsigma]

I agree that the schedule change has made the Crescent much less desirable for Atlanta passengers, and I have to believe it's hurt patronage.

The schedule change was not an arbitrary decision made by Amtrak. It was part of OTP disputes with Norfolk Southern. The train’s OTP on the previous schedule was atrocious but before Amtrak can seek relief from the STB they must try to work it out with the carrier including through trying to work out a schedule that both parties can accept.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I live in CLT. I liked it when 20 hit around 230am. That would put us in PHL or NYP around noon, give or take. However given the constant holdups between NOL and ATL made on time reliability into CLT painful at best. Then the schedule changed. Things improved somewhat. However it never failed, anytime we booked 20, it was severely late anyway.

So instead of spending our money on roomettes or bedrooms, we are spending it on business class on Carolinian 80. Much more reliable as far as on time performance is concerned. Of course it helps that 80 originates from CLT.

I would like to see Amtrak go back to 20’s old schedule. But it would require Amtrak to grow a pair of balls and take the freights to task concerning on time performance.

The Crescent is still a bit earlier in the day to DC and then NYC (assuming it is not really, really late into Charlotte and Greensboro.) I was seeing my daughter off on the Carolinian 80 last Sunday and the Crescent was not expected to arrive in Greensboro until 8:55. I should look as the Carolinian may have one the race to DC that day with a 90 minute late Crescent.

Besides having a bit more time in cities from DC north, the views on the Crescent are 100% better. Past Raleigh and to Richmond it is just soooo flat. The App in my username is for Appalachian State University so I love me some hills and mountains. The Crescent has a few of those at least.

What they really need is a business class car on the Crescent. That would be ideal for trips to DC from CLT and GRO in NC. And have an option for a flex meal in the business class, even if not free like it would be in a sleeper. something a bit nicer than the cafe.

The amount of time given to get from Gastonia to Charlotte is very telling.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I live in CLT. I liked it when 20 hit around 230am. That would put us in PHL or NYP around noon, give or take. However given the constant holdups between NOL and ATL made on time reliability into CLT painful at best. Then the schedule changed. Things improved somewhat. However it never failed, anytime we booked 20, it was severely late anyway.

So instead of spending our money on roomettes or bedrooms, we are spending it on business class on Carolinian 80. Much more reliable as far as on time performance is concerned. Of course it helps that 80 originates from CLT.

I would like to see Amtrak go back to 20’s old schedule. But it would require Amtrak to grow a pair of balls and take the freights to task concerning on time performance.

30 years ago our honeymoon started on the Crescent in Charlotte. I think it was about 90 late and I was ready to get on the train that day and into our bedroom.

 

[TheVig]

The Crescent is still a bit earlier in the day to DC and then NYC (assuming it is not really, really late into Charlotte and Greensboro.) I was seeing my daughter off on the Carolinian 80 last Sunday and the Crescent was not expected to arrive in Greensboro until 8:55. I should look as the Carolinian may have one the race to DC that day with a 90 minute late Crescent.

Besides having a bit more time in cities from DC north, the views on the Crescent are 100% better. Past Raleigh and to Richmond it is just soooo flat. The App in my username is for Appalachian State University so I love me some hills and mountains. The Crescent has a few of those at least.

What they really need is a business class car on the Crescent. That would be ideal for trips to DC from CLT and GRO in NC. And have an option for a flex meal in the business class, even if not free like it would be in a sleeper. something a bit nicer than the cafe.

The amount of time given to get from Gastonia to Charlotte is very telling.

Back in May we took the Crescent to NYP. The Carolinian beat us by almost three hours. In February we arrived literally 10 minutes apart. Kinda of comical, when we see passengers in Moynihan, who we had small talk with back in CLT before we boarded our respective trains.

 

[TrainOtter]

I would like to see Amtrak go back to 20’s old schedule. But it would require Amtrak to grow a pair of balls and take the freights to task concerning on time performance.

Unfortunately, freight has more often won disputes with Amtrak over right-of-way and on time issues. The federal agency that settles disputes between Amtrak and freight (STB?) needs to grow a pair and enforce the requirements of the federal Act that created Amtrak.

A(n unintended?) consequence of freight trains being two and three miles long is that it becomes easier for freight to shunt even the longest Amtrak consists to a siding. And easier to justify.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

Back in May we took the Crescent to NYP. The Carolinian beat us by almost three hours. In February we arrived literally 10 minutes apart. Kinda of comical, when we see passengers in Moynihan, who we had small talk with back in CLT before we boarded our respective trains.

That was a VERY late Crescent (or a very early Carolinian.) you were on in May.

On Sunday 20 was 92 min late to GRO and left 33 minutes later than the Carolinian instead of 58 minutes before the Carolinian as should have happened had both been on time. The Crescent still arrived in NYP 2 hours and 3 minutes before the Carolinian.

Every day is different but when I have tracked 20 it seems to fall apart after about 2 stops after New Orleans and goes really bad in AL. The padding between Gastonia and Charlotte helps and though it may not make up time all the time it does not get worse. 80 falls apart between Selma and Rocky Mount and that may continue south of Petersburg.

The Crescent is 605 miles from CLT to NYP and 705 miles from CLT to NYP. That 100 miles gives the Crescent 90 minutes to still win the race between those end points. From Greensboro that 100 miles difference is even harder to make up for the Carolinian due to GRO being 92 miles north up the NS main.

I wish they were both on time more.

 

[GaSteve]

What they really need is a business class car on the Crescent

They had it for a while but it was not successful.

 

[PVD]

Yes, when I went to Atlanta there was an AM-2 next to my VL-1 that was used as a separate B/C car. Other than soft drinks and coffee, and maybe a bit quieter, it really had no big pluses over the AM-2s the Crescent already had. It was mostly empty.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I took the Business Class car once from NYP to NOL. The busiest the car got was probably 20 passengers in between N.Y and Charlottesville. South of there, it was basically empty the whole way. I can see why they removed it, but it was a fun ride.

 

[George Harris]

30 years ago our honeymoon started on the Crescent in Charlotte. I think it was about 90 late and I was ready to get on the train that day and into our bedroom.

Ah yes. We did likewise, but 50 years ago, starting in Hattiesburg MS and went to DC where we were both working at that time. February 14, 1973. Southern Railway in a bedroom in one of their lovely 10-6's. Operated, near on time all the way. Beautiful moonlit night through the Carolinas.

 

[Chatter163]

I would like to see Amtrak go back to 20’s old schedule. But it would require Amtrak to grow a pair of balls and take the freights to task concerning on time performance.

They did take Norfolk Southern to arbitration and the current northbound schedule is a result of that legal action.

 

[jis]

They did take Norfolk Southern to arbitration and the current northbound schedule is a result of that legal action.

As they say, be very careful what you wish for.

 

[jimdex]

They did take Norfolk Southern to arbitration and the current northbound schedule is a result of that legal action.

This wasn't formal arbitration per say, if I recall correctly. It was a result of the STB's adoption of metrics to measure on-time train performance. As a prelude to holding the freight railroads more responsible for running Amtrak trains on schedule, the STB ordered Amtrak to hold talks with all of its host railroads to make sure the schedules were realistic. The Crescent seems to be one of the few schedules that actually changed, and although I have no way of knowing this, I kind of suspect that the change may have been Amtrak's idea. It gives Amtrak more time to turn crews around in New Orleans. In the past, if the southbound train arrived too late in the evening, the morning departure would be delayed so the crew could rest. So I can see why Amtrak as well as Norfolk Southern might want to delay the scheduled northbound departure, but it's still not passenger-friendly.

 

[lordsigma]

The Crescent seems to be one of the few schedules that actually changed, and although I have no way of knowing this, I kind of suspect that the change may have been Amtrak's idea.

It wasn't. It was the result of negotiation.

 

[jis]

It wasn't. It was the result of negotiation.

I agree. Amtrak tried hard to not change the schedule, but the fact is that in order to get the route under the umbrella of the STB monitoring they had to meet the first step spelled out in the procedures which was to get schedule to be a mutually agreed upon one and NS would not budge.

 

[jimdex]

It wasn't. It was the result of negotiation.

I know it was the result of negotiation, but was Norfolk Southern asking for this change, or was it Amtrak? I do know that under the terms of the agreement, either side had a year to demand a reversion to the earlier schedule. Since there was apparently no such demand, I have to assume both sides were cool with it,

 

[jis]

I know it was the result of negotiation, but was Norfolk Southern asking for this change, or was it Amtrak?

It was Norfolk Southern.

 

[joelkfla]

I know it was the result of negotiation, but was Norfolk Southern asking for this change, or was it Amtrak? I do know that under the terms of the agreement, either side had a year to demand a reversion to the earlier schedule. Since there was apparently no such demand, I have to assume both sides were cool with it,

Maybe Amtrak would have had to show that the schedule change had a significant affect on ridership, which would have been hard to do given the shortened consist.

 

[GaSteve]

As a National Park Service Trails and Rails volunteer, I can tell you that, for many years, there was a T&R route ATL-NOL and return the next day 3 or 4 days a week. and it was very popular. About 5 years ago, Amtrak decided they would not cover the hotel and meal cost for the T&R program, so the route was cut back to ATL-BHM and return the same day. The number of volunteers declined as a result. Now, the new schedule totally precludes a T&R route since the return trip would be largely after dark and the pax don't really want to be bothered. That routing also precludes much discussion about the Civil Rights history along the route, since much of it was south of BHM.