Cross Country Cafe

[Guest_Ben_*]

What is the future of the Simplified Dining Service/Cross Country Cafes? What routes are they being used on now and where will they be in the future?

 

[AlanB]

SDS is in place on all long distance routes, except for the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder.

Cross Country Cafes currently run in their intended configuration, that being both as a diner and a cafe, only on the City of New Orleans.

CCC cars run as dining cars only on the Capitol Limited and the Texas Eagle.

And the Lake Shore Limited runs with a car generally known as a Diner-Lite car as its dining car. This is converted Amfleet II lounge car that has received some modifications. But it still has no grill and no real ovens, only convection ovens, therefore nothing is cooked to order.

As for where things will be in the future, only Amtrak knows. However, if they do continue to convert dining cars into CCC's, sooner or later some other Superliner route will have to start running with a CCC as its dining car.

 

[wayman]

And the Lake Shore Limited runs with a car generally known as a Diner-Lite car as its dining car. This is converted Amfleet II lounge car that has received some modifications. But it still has no grill and no real ovens, only convection ovens, therefore nothing is cooked to order.

Also the Cardinal.

 

[AlanB]

And the Lake Shore Limited runs with a car generally known as a Diner-Lite car as its dining car. This is converted Amfleet II lounge car that has received some modifications. But it still has no grill and no real ovens, only convection ovens, therefore nothing is cooked to order.

Also the Cardinal.

Oops, forgot that one.

And the Cardinal which also runs with a Diner-Lite car that functions as both a dining car and a cafe car.

The LSL only uses the Diner-Lite car as a dining car, it still runs with a seperate cafe car.

 

[Rob_C]

So with new funding coming, what's the way to go with this?

Viewliner Diners? A diner based on the Amfleet II, or something else entirely?

 

[Crescent Mark]

SDS is in place on all long distance routes, except for the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder.

And the Crescent and Silver Star / Silver Meteor!

 

[wayman]

SDS is in place on all long distance routes, except for the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder.

And the Crescent and Silver Star / Silver Meteor!

No, they have SDS too--SDS is just the (almost) system-wide dining car menu-simplifications and staff-cutbacks, implemented ... at least five years ago, maybe ten? ... just the same on Superliner diners and Heritage diners. Only the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder kept the larger dining car staffs allowing for higher throughput, more efficient service, real china (well, you know, not plastic china), and more individually-prepared foods.

 

[AlanB]

SDS is in place on all long distance routes, except for the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder.

And the Crescent and Silver Star / Silver Meteor!

No, they have SDS too--SDS is just the (almost) system-wide dining car menu-simplifications and staff-cutbacks, implemented ... at least five years ago, maybe ten? ... just the same on Superliner diners and Heritage diners. Only the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder kept the larger dining car staffs allowing for higher throughput, more efficient service, real china (well, you know, not plastic china), and more individually-prepared foods.

Correct Wayman, SDS is indeed in effect on the Silvers and the Crescent.

To CrescentMark, SDS is not the CCC or the Diner-Lite cars. Those cars do also follow SDS practices, no cloth tablecloths. reduced staffing, pre-cooked food. But SDS is a seperate animal from what I'll call "combo-cars" where Amtrak combines a diner and a cafe into one car.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

SDS is in place on all long distance routes, except for the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder.

And the Crescent and Silver Star / Silver Meteor!

No, they have SDS too--SDS is just the (almost) system-wide dining car menu-simplifications and staff-cutbacks, implemented ... at least five years ago, maybe ten? ... just the same on Superliner diners and Heritage diners. Only the AutoTrain and the Empire Builder kept the larger dining car staffs allowing for higher throughput, more efficient service, real china (well, you know, not plastic china), and more individually-prepared foods.

Correct Wayman, SDS is indeed in effect on the Silvers and the Crescent.

To CrescentMark, SDS is not the CCC or the Diner-Lite cars. Those cars do also follow SDS practices, no cloth tablecloths. reduced staffing, pre-cooked food. But SDS is a seperate animal from what I'll call "combo-cars" where Amtrak combines a diner and a cafe into one car.

Last Time I was on the Crescent we had paper table cloths and things ran smoothly, much smoother than the Crescent ever did under full service dining. For some trains SDS was a vast improvement. Back with full service dining there were too many employees, too much order customization, and more storage was used for dishes and silverware. Now the reduced staff can navigate the kitchens better and when a crew works together they can be faster than the larger crews from full service. The old menus had too much cooked to order food, each item had to be prepared from scratch for each individual which was a waste of time during meal rushes. Most restaurants have cut back on cooked from scratch food, some have eliminated it all together so why shouldn't Amtrak follow the trends? The new plastic plates and cups are thinner and take up less space, therefore there is no longer a need to wash them en-route that saves time by eliminating some water stops and eliminating the job of dishwasher. I've never experienced the CCC or Diner-lite, but if everything can be worked out they too can be a success.

But personally I would re-configure the diners to be more like on the ground diners, 24hr service, one cook, one waiter/tress, you either order at a counter or you take a seat and order from a waiter. Your food is cooked and brought to you. I know this may make serving times longer during mealtimes but the cafe cars need to be retained for over flow seating and cold meals/snacks and drinks. I know I've heard a lot of people bring up vending machines, but I think they would be a disaster. They have enough problems dispensing properly on level steady ground, throw in the movement of a train and there is no chance they'd even function.

No matter how they decide to do it every LD train needs 24hr Hot-meal service, 24hr snack service and at least two food service cars that are used as a first come- first served style. Its almost inhumane to expect one diner to feed 200-500 people 3 meals a day for as long as 3 days. Its rough on employees, many coach passengers are left out due to limited reservations. The diners have too short hours, cafe closes at midnight and doesn't re-open until 6 am. Amtrak really needs to work on this, they need to do quite a bit on this. It can be done, it happens in even more cramped quarters on the ground in conventional restaurants everyday. I'm sure all of you can think of a tiny little independent restaurant that uses a kitchen relatively the same size as an Amtrak diner, that have a more complex menu and can still handle a much higher through-put than Amtrak with the same number of staff and they even make a profit to boot.

Also I want to know why restaurants and Amtrak always contract with either Coke or Pepsi but never both? People like me who despise Pepsi with all their heart are left out on Amtrak, why can't everybody dispense both? I always bring at least a two-liter of coke with me and just take the free ice from the cafe.

 

[AlanB]

Last Time I was on the Crescent we had paper table cloths and things ran smoothly, much smoother than the Crescent ever did under full service dining. For some trains SDS was a vast improvement. Back with full service dining there were too many employees, too much order customization, and more storage was used for dishes and silverware. Now the reduced staff can navigate the kitchens better and when a crew works together they can be faster than the larger crews from full service. The old menus had too much cooked to order food, each item had to be prepared from scratch for each individual which was a waste of time during meal rushes. Most restaurants have cut back on cooked from scratch food, some have eliminated it all together so why shouldn't Amtrak follow the trends? The new plastic plates and cups are thinner and take up less space, therefore there is no longer a need to wash them en-route that saves time by eliminating some water stops and eliminating the job of dishwasher. I've never experienced the CCC or Diner-lite, but if everything can be worked out they too can be a success.

While it's true that plastic plates and such are thinner than regular plates, they don't take up less space in the car. They take up far more space, because now you have to carry enough plates for everyone eating in the dinner for each meal. Before you only carried enough plates for the diner's seating capacity, plus a few extra for dropped plates and such, then you washed them and put them back on the rack. So for a Superliner that could seat 72, maybe you carried at most 100 plates.

Now on the SW Chief, you have to carry 360 plastic plates or more. No way that close to 400 plastic plates takes up less room than 100 glass plates. And the same is true of the other items.

Then you're forgetting that there is now three times as much garbage on the train, because all those plastic plates and cups go right into the garbage when we're done eating. Whereas the crew used to off load two or three bags of garbage at a long stop, they now carry off sometimes as many as 10 or more. Those bags of garbage take up far more kitchen space than did all that glassware. And expenses for carting away the garbage have shot way up.

Also I want to know why restaurants and Amtrak always contract with either Coke or Pepsi but never both? People like me who despise Pepsi with all their heart are left out on Amtrak, why can't everybody dispense both? I always bring at least a two-liter of coke with me and just take the free ice from the cafe.

Because Pepsi and Coke both offer exclusive deals, the soda is cheaper if you are brand loyal. And in Amtrak's case, now you've got more inventory to fit into the limited storage space.

Personally I hate Pepsi too, but thankfully they do make Sierra Mist, which I enjoy.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I just finished reading a book on Santa Fe streamliner trains, and they covered food service quite well. Santa Fe ran several Lunch Counter Diners where the car was part traditional Diner and part Lunch Counter, much like a smaller version of your classic "Main Street Diner." I would love to see something like that return. On the other hand, on thinner routes, they, along with Southern Pacific, ran Vending Machine Cars, which while they looked nice just seem like trouble waiting to happen. And half the stuff you get from vending machines today isn't fit to feed a dog.

My "Dream Diner" would be a hybrid of the Lunch Counter Diner and a Sightseer Lounge.

 

[zoltan]

Personally I hate Pepsi too, but thankfully they do make Sierra Mist, which I enjoy.

Sierra Mist is indeed the one saving grace of Amtrak's deal with Pepsi.

 

[cpamtfan]

I would go to Atlanta if it wasn't Coke town h34r: . I think Pepsi goes better with Amtrak, because remember when Amtrak's main color inside the trains were red, they had Coke, but in the blue/silver generation who do they pick? I stoped drinkin' Coke this year because I hate it so much. Now, back to the CCC's .

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Personally I hate Pepsi too, but thankfully they do make Sierra Mist, which I enjoy.

Sierra Mist is indeed the one saving grace of Amtrak's deal with Pepsi.

I'm not a Pepsi fan either.

A couple of weeks ago on CZ #5 we stopped long enough to run inside a depot store. I was first in the store, snatched up 2 cans of Coke Classic and on my way back to the train, passed my CA and another CA.

"Ah, a Coke man" says my CA.

Me; "Hey, I can sell these on the train, right?".

My CA, laughing, "Yeah". :lol:

Other CA, scowling, "NO!" :angry:

 

[wayman]

Because Pepsi and Coke both offer exclusive deals, the soda is cheaper if you are brand loyal. And in Amtrak's case, now you've got more inventory to fit into the limited storage space.

And as you've doubtless experienced, it's not just Amtrak that doesn't offer you a Coke/Pepsi choice. Practically no restaurant anywhere does, because the syrup will cost them many times more unless the restaurant signs an exclusive loyalty contract.

Moreover, both Coke and Pepsi approach supermarkets with a "if you want us to supply our products to you at reasonable cost, you will give us exclusive weekly major end-cap displays and exclusive weekly sales 26 weeks of the year". You'll notice that with both of them doing that, there are no weeks remaining for any third-party soda company (like RC, Schweps, etc, which at this point have mostly consolidated under Nestle/Cadbury for economic support). I think there have been attempts at trust-busting, but since it's a du-oplopy instead of a mon-opoly that's harder to break.

Fortunately, as I understand it, state-run services like the North Carolina and Maine trains are not under the same food-service contract as Amtrak itself, and hence can decide for themselves what beverage products to offer; and I believe both of them offer Coca-Cola products. So if you simply must have the "Coke served on a train", at least you have a couple options

I think half the train rushed off to a grocery store or fast food restaurant a couple blocks away from the La Junta station during the crew change when I rode the Southwest Chief last fall (since we were ahead of schedule, the train was guaranteed to sit in the station for almost 45 minutes until its scheduled departure time). Coach attendants were extremely clear about the time limit, but also gave very clear walking directions to detraining passengers. And the coach attendants laughed as passengers with bags of food came huffing and puffing back to the station platform, many of them still twenty minutes ahead of departure time but all of them panicked about making sure they wouldn't miss the train! :lol:

 

[Hanno]

I saw that the CCC is used on the CL. How does the CCC differ from a typical dining car? Does anyone have a picture or layout they would be willing to share? We will be traveling on the CL next year. We have traveled on Auto Train and was wondering what to expect that will be different on the CL relative to dining.

Thanks!

Bob

 

[sky12065]

I think half the train rushed off to a grocery store or fast food restaurant a couple blocks away from the La Junta station during the crew change when I rode the Southwest Chief last fall (since we were ahead of schedule, the train was guaranteed to sit in the station for almost 45 minutes until its scheduled departure time). Coach attendants were extremely clear about the time limit, but also gave very clear walking directions to detraining passengers. And the coach attendants laughed as passengers with bags of food came huffing and puffing back to the station platform, many of them still twenty minutes ahead of departure time but all of them panicked about making sure they wouldn't miss the train! :lol:

Now that's what I would call DESPERATE... unless of course they were picking me up a pizza along the way!

{Umm, mushrooms, sausage, pepperoni}

 

[the_traveler]

{Umm, mushrooms, sausage, pepperoni}

Hold the mushrooms! And make it a large!

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Last Time I was on the Crescent we had paper table cloths and things ran smoothly, much smoother than the Crescent ever did under full service dining. For some trains SDS was a vast improvement. Back with full service dining there were too many employees, too much order customization, and more storage was used for dishes and silverware. Now the reduced staff can navigate the kitchens better and when a crew works together they can be faster than the larger crews from full service. The old menus had too much cooked to order food, each item had to be prepared from scratch for each individual which was a waste of time during meal rushes. Most restaurants have cut back on cooked from scratch food, some have eliminated it all together so why shouldn't Amtrak follow the trends? The new plastic plates and cups are thinner and take up less space, therefore there is no longer a need to wash them en-route that saves time by eliminating some water stops and eliminating the job of dishwasher. I've never experienced the CCC or Diner-lite, but if everything can be worked out they too can be a success.

While it's true that plastic plates and such are thinner than regular plates, they don't take up less space in the car. They take up far more space, because now you have to carry enough plates for everyone eating in the dinner for each meal. Before you only carried enough plates for the diner's seating capacity, plus a few extra for dropped plates and such, then you washed them and put them back on the rack. So for a Superliner that could seat 72, maybe you carried at most 100 plates.

Now on the SW Chief, you have to carry 360 plastic plates or more. No way that close to 400 plastic plates takes up less room than 100 glass plates. And the same is true of the other items.

Then you're forgetting that there is now three times as much garbage on the train, because all those plastic plates and cups go right into the garbage when we're done eating. Whereas the crew used to off load two or three bags of garbage at a long stop, they now carry off sometimes as many as 10 or more. Those bags of garbage take up far more kitchen space than did all that glassware. And expenses for carting away the garbage have shot way up.

Also I want to know why restaurants and Amtrak always contract with either Coke or Pepsi but never both? People like me who despise Pepsi with all their heart are left out on Amtrak, why can't everybody dispense both? I always bring at least a two-liter of coke with me and just take the free ice from the cafe.

Because Pepsi and Coke both offer exclusive deals, the soda is cheaper if you are brand loyal. And in Amtrak's case, now you've got more inventory to fit into the limited storage space.

Personally I hate Pepsi too, but thankfully they do make Sierra Mist, which I enjoy.

I thought they washed the plastic plates and cups at the commissaries?

 

[AlanB]

I thought they washed the plastic plates and cups at the commissaries?

No. They get trashed. I'm not even sure if health regulations would allow one to wash those types of plates. They'd probably melt in a dishwasher in fact.

Besides, do you have any idea how wonderful the diner would smell on a three day trip if they kept all those unwashed plates around?

And even if they did recycle them, which again they don't, that still wouldn't change the fact that you'd need close to 400 plastic plates instead of the 100 glass plates. So you're still using up more space to store them, both the clean and the dirty.

 

[wayman]

No. They get trashed. I'm not even sure if health regulations would allow one to wash those types of plates. They'd probably melt in a dishwasher in fact.

They also melt such that they no longer sit flat on your table if they were stacked too close to the reheating surfaces on the LSL Diner-Lite prior to having food put on them....

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I thought they washed the plastic plates and cups at the commissaries?

No. They get trashed. I'm not even sure if health regulations would allow one to wash those types of plates. They'd probably melt in a dishwasher in fact.

Besides, do you have any idea how wonderful the diner would smell on a three day trip if they kept all those unwashed plates around?

And even if they did recycle them, which again they don't, that still wouldn't change the fact that you'd need close to 400 plastic plates instead of the 100 glass plates. So you're still using up more space to store them, both the clean and the dirty.

Those are some awfully sturdy silk screened disposable plates. If using disposable plates is supposed to save money why not get some cheaper ones with no logo.

 

[AlanB]

Those are some awfully sturdy silk screened disposable plates.

They aren't that sturdy, I've cracked them trying to cut food with my knife.

If using disposable plates is supposed to save money why not get some cheaper ones with no logo.

No clue, although I guess that they figure the real savings is in cutting the assistant cook/dishwasher.

 

[Hanno]

I saw that the CCC is used on the CL. How does the CCC differ from a typical dining car? Does anyone have a picture or layout they would be willing to share? We will be traveling on the CL next year. We have traveled on Auto Train and was wondering what to expect that will be different on the CL relative to dining.
Thanks!

Bob

Any thoughts on the above?

 

[had8ley]

I saw that the CCC is used on the CL. How does the CCC differ from a typical dining car? Does anyone have a picture or layout they would be willing to share? We will be traveling on the CL next year. We have traveled on Auto Train and was wondering what to expect that will be different on the CL relative to dining.
Thanks!

Bob

Any thoughts on the above?

Just one~ YUK !!! A complete waste of money. If they were attempting to tee off the crews and pax at the same time they accomplished their goal.