Dallas Houston Run Time

[dart330]

Sounds like another connection that needs to be submitted to the AGR Insider on FlyerTalk so it can be added to the system.

After looking at this some more, I realized you would be able to go from NCG to points West on the TE, but due to the return schedule there would be no way to get back without overnighting in LVW. Probably why the one way connection is not in the system.

 

[stntylr]

I would imagine that TXDOT will wait to see what becomes of Central Japan Railway's plan to build a high speed train between Houston and Dallas. They say they can do it for $7 billion and not use any tax money to do it. In fact they say they have already put together a group of investors and have the money.

I don't know if this will ever happen but if someone is really to build a rail line without costing the state anything I think they should see what happens.

 

[Bus Nut]

I would imagine that TXDOT will wait to see what becomes of Central Japan Railway's plan to build a high speed train between Houston and Dallas. They say they can do it for $7 billion and not use any tax money to do it. In fact they say they have already put together a group of investors and have the money. I don't know if this will ever happen but if someone is really to build a rail line without costing the state anything I think they should see what happens.

Is the proposed ROW between Houston and Dallas not very built up? It sounds pretty fantastical.

Will they be able to take eminent domain when property owners or individual towns decide to "negotiate"?

I've heard they have some airlines interested because with air fuel up, they want people to take long trips, not short trips, and HSR is being sold as a feeder to the airport. But it's my understanding that airlines have been the downfall before.

Acela was good for NEC airports and probably the airlines too, but that didn't mean that the companies running the shuttles were too pleased about the competition at first. Human beings hate change.

 

[RobertB]

Is the proposed ROW between Houston and Dallas not very built up? It sounds pretty fantastical.
Will they be able to take eminent domain when property owners or individual towns decide to "negotiate"?

I've heard they have some airlines interested because with air fuel up, they want people to take long trips, not short trips, and HSR is being sold as a feeder to the airport. But it's my understanding that airlines have been the downfall before.

Acela was good for NEC airports and probably the airlines too, but that didn't mean that the companies running the shuttles were too pleased about the competition at first. Human beings hate change.

From the southern edge of downtown Dallas, it's pretty much nothing but farms and ranches all the way to the Houston suburbs. Southern Dallas is highly underdeveloped - which is part of the turf war brewing over routing HSR. Dallas wants the line to come up through the southern sector in hopes of spurring development, but Fort Worth wants the line to come straight up the middle to DFW Airport. I don't know how you get into Houston through its massive sprawl. But in between, there's a lot of "nothing".

I put "nothing" in quotes because of your second question about eminent domain. That's a sore point 'round these parts, largely thanks to Gov. Perry's Trans-Texas Corridor proposal. It would have used ED to acquire several quarter-mile-wide swaths of farmland, then give it to private toll operators on a 50-year lease. He paid lip service to including rail in the ROW, but the proposal collapsed under its own weight. The new strategy is to boil the frog by building the same system, one toll road at a time - and still turning it over to private operators. The point of all that: ED could and probably should be used for HSR, but it would stir up the same coalition of farmers and ranchers that killed the big-vision TTC plan.

In the '80s, Southwest Airlines used its influence to kill any proposals to build a rail alternative to its Texas route system. But that was when SWA was limited by law to operations in Texas and the adjoining states. It was a turf war between the new (70's) DFW Airport and Dallas Love Field (DAL), which had been expected to close after DFW was built. SWA fought long and hard for its survival at DAL, and I'm sure they were still in a defensive mode in the '80s against yet another existential threat. Now, Southwest is a nationwide carrier, and rail is not such a threat. The last I've heard is that SWA isn't jumping into the discussion on either side.

(Anyone with better info, please feel free to update and correct!)

 

[henryj]

One route proposed is down the median of I45. In my opinion, that would necessitate rebuilding the whole freeway between Houston and Dallas. But the politicos get more kickbacks and get to let more contracts to their cronies that way so who knows. The easiest and cheapest way is to just use the BNSF tracks and fix them up. Neither route goes through any population centers to speak of. If they want to run airport to airport, I think on the Dallas end I would just run into Dallas Union Station and take the TRE tracks from there to get close to the DFW airport. On the Houston end the airport is between I45 and Hwy59, so there is no easy way to serve that one other than a bus transfer somewhere on the Beltway 8 freeway. Houston, of course, would also have to build a new train station downtown as the current Amshack just would not do. Hobby airport would have to be served by buses from the downtown station. If you plan to see this built and to ride it I hope you plan to be around another 10 or 15 years. It will happen eventually because the airways are becoming too crowded and so are the highways. DFW to SAS, the trans-texas highway has already been built. It's a toll road called TX130 that bypasses everything south of Austin and they just upped the speed limit on it to 85mph as a publicity stunt I guess. There is no rail but the first phases were built to accommodate rail. However, UP has plenty of alternate routes it can use if given the money to beef them up and that would free up the Austin to SAS tracks for passenger rail. Again, San Antonio would need a new passenger station more critically located.

 

[saxman]

Many people bring up Southwest Airlines, but Southwest isn't just concentrated in Texas anymore. They are quite big in California now, as are a few other airlines, and I don't see them being against the CAHSR out there. I get the feeling it'll be the same case in Texas. And don't find fares on Southwest to be any cheaper than United and American anymore in Texas. They are, of course, the other big players in the state.

I think building down the BNSF is the best option for core express service. When it comes to convention speed service (up to 110 mph) I think running through the most towns to build local ridership is more important. So hitting up Waxahachie, Corsicana, and College Station is a good start. Serving Huntsville, somehow, is important too, another college town. But if you try to run down the BNSF at slow speeds, I doubt the line would get as much ridership as it should. Part of what makes slower speed more attractive is the fact that it connects the small towns to the big cities. It's why ridership on the LD trains stays strong.

 

[cirdan]

Houston, of course, would also have to build a new train station downtown as the current Amshack just would not do. .

My understanding was that there were proposals for a station by the UH Downtown site. That would be on the present Sunset route, but could also handle commuter rail and maybe high speed rail. It is also served by the Metro. But the plans for that site have effectively been killed, or so i was told last time I was there.

 

[henryj]

That plan no longer appears on the Metro site. I think they just quietly dropped it. Now they have put on hold the commuter trains out Hwy 90 to Stafford and Missouri City. They are doing this - "The METROVision Long Range Plan is temporarily on hold while METRO's Board of Directors and staff re-evaluate investment priorities for the region by way of the Transit Re-imagining Plan. The purpose of the Re-imagining Plan is to take a fresh look at the METRO service area (given our existing transit facilities and level of financial resources) and design a regional transit system from the ground up with a “blank-slate” approach."

In other words they have decided to study it to death with more expensive studies. Another idea that was put out by the media was to transform the old downtown post office building into a new train station. The post office building sits on the site of the old SP Grand Central Station that was torn down in 1960. What is going on in Houston is the former mayor Bob Lanier and his 'mafia' just kill anything that has the word 'rail' in it. They are just dinosaurs with a lot of influence and power and no one does anything here without their ok. Mayor Bob's idea of a viable metro was to bring back jitneys. Anyone remember what a jitney was?

Houston, of course, would also have to build a new train station downtown as the current Amshack just would not do. .

My understanding was that there were proposals for a station by the UH Downtown site. That would be on the present Sunset route, but could also handle commuter rail and maybe high speed rail. It is also served by the Metro. But the plans for that site have effectively been killed, or so i was told last time I was there.

 

[stntylr]

Many people bring up Southwest Airlines, but Southwest isn't just concentrated in Texas anymore. They are quite big in California now, as are a few other airlines, and I don't see them being against the CAHSR out there. I get the feeling it'll be the same case in Texas. And don't find fares on Southwest to be any cheaper than United and American anymore in Texas. They are, of course, the other big players in the state.
I think building down the BNSF is the best option for core express service. When it comes to convention speed service (up to 110 mph) I think running through the most towns to build local ridership is more important. So hitting up Waxahachie, Corsicana, and College Station is a good start. Serving Huntsville, somehow, is important too, another college town. But if you try to run down the BNSF at slow speeds, I doubt the line would get as much ridership as it should. Part of what makes slower speed more attractive is the fact that it connects the small towns to the big cities. It's why ridership on the LD trains stays strong.

There is no way the same train could go to both College Station and Huntsville. They are just too far apart.

 

[RobertB]

There is no way the same train could go to both College Station and Huntsville. They are just too far apart.

Pretty much due east-west of each other, with all the existing rail corridors going north-south. Given the choice, it seems like you'd want to serve Texas A&M (53k students) over Sam Houston State U (18k students).

I was thinking that Huntsville vs. College Station might depend on whether Dallas gets their way (HSR from the underdeveloped southeast) or whether Fort Worth prevails (HSR straight up to DFW Airport). It looked like Houston-Huntsville-Dallas would be in competition with Houston-CStation-DFW. But Google Maps (not the best source of info, granted) shows rails from College Station to both Waco and Corsicana, so who knows?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Noticed that Waco was mentioned in the Previous Post! Why do UP/BNSF Dispatchers Route the Eagle thru Mc Gregor, a Farm Burg of perhaps a 1,000 People, (15 miles West of Waco)

when Waco is a City of 100,000+ with Baylor University also located there! (Big Rivals to UT in Austin!!!) The UP Mainline line through Waco has Freights that run through the City , Im not sure about a Depot tho??? :help:

 

[henryj]

Noticed that Waco was mentioned in the Previous Post! Why do UP/BNSF Dispatchers Route the Eagle thru Mc Gregor, a Farm Burg of perhaps a 1,000 People, (15 miles West of Waco)when Waco is a City of 100,000+ with Baylor University also located there! (Big Rivals to UT in Austin!!!) The UP Mainline line through Waco has Freights that run through the City , Im not sure about a Depot tho??? :help:

Jim, the Eagle uses the BNSF from Temple to Fort Worth. It's the old Texas Chief/Lone Star route. The route through Waco was the MKT route and was in poor shape before UP bought the MKT. From Taylor to Temple is also the old MKT route of the Texas Special. Jim you gave me the narrative when we rode that route. lol. Before the UP fixed up the Taylor to Temple section the Eagle took the MoPac all the way to Milano where it turned onto the BNSF route to Temple. UP probably let the Eagle use the Taylor to Temple track because it is not very busy. Temple to Fort Worth through Waco on the UP is very busy and would probably cost a lot to divert too.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Noticed that Waco was mentioned in the Previous Post! Why do UP/BNSF Dispatchers Route the Eagle thru Mc Gregor, a Farm Burg of perhaps a 1,000 People, (15 miles West of Waco)when Waco is a City of 100,000+ with Baylor University also located there! (Big Rivals to UT in Austin!!!) The UP Mainline line through Waco has Freights that run through the City , Im not sure about a Depot tho??? :help:

Jim, the Eagle uses the BNSF from Temple to Fort Worth. It's the old Texas Chief/Lone Star route. The route through Waco was the MKT route and was in poor shape before UP bought the MKT. From Taylor to Temple is also the old MKT route of the Texas Special. Jim you gave me the narrative when we rode that route. lol. Before the UP fixed up the Taylor to Temple section the Eagle took the MoPac all the way to Milano where it turned onto the BNSF route to Temple. UP probably let the Eagle use the Taylor to Temple track because it is not very busy. Temple to Fort Worth through Waco on the UP is very busy and would probably cost a lot to divert too.

:hi: Thanks Henry, sometimes the mind plays tricks when you reach my age! I actually knew that about BNSF/UP as you said, guess I should have said that Amtrak should discuss this with UP and BNSF so as to be able to Run (it's only 2 Trains a Day, both in the Daytime!)the Eagles through Waco in order to Call @ a City with 100,000+ Population and Baylor University! Bet BNSF wouldnt mind,(but UP might be a Different Story!!) all the Freight Traffic seems to be picking up on these Lines! Ive Never seen more than a Hand Full of Pax get on or Off in McGregor and its slow going from MCG-FTW past the Booming Metropolis of Crawford!! :giggle: !!

 

[RobertB]

Not much surprise that MacGregor has small ridership. One problem seems to be a lack of interest in running a shuttle of any kind between MacGregor and Waco. From what we picked up when I rode the train there and met my wife (who was visiting her son, who goes to Baylor), nobody wants to pay for it. MacGregor certainly doesn't want to pay for a shuttle to benefit Waco, Waco doesn't want to subsidize a service that would benefit mostly Baylor students, and the school hasn't stepped up. I don't know to what extent it's ever been discussed - but Baylor is a private college with a conservative bent (its president is Ken Starr -- yes, *that* Ken Starr), so maybe public transportation just isn't a priority.

Now what confuses me is that Amtrak doesn't have a thruway bus from MacGregor to Waco - and then on straight down SH 6 to College Station and Houston. I heart Nacogdoches, but its 13k student body is a third of A&M alone - plus Baylor's own 15k.

(I hope I'm not taking the discussion *too* far away from the original topic of rail speed between Dallas and Houston...)

 

[George Harris]

Before the UP fixed up the Taylor to Temple section the Eagle took the MoPac all the way to Milano where it turned onto the BNSF route to Temple. UP probably let the Eagle use the Taylor to Temple track because it is not very busy. Temple to Fort Worth through Waco on the UP is very busy and would probably cost a lot to divert too.

The MKT route Temple to Taylor was fixed up for Amtrak by MKT before it got absorbed into the UP Borg. As noted, the traffic volume was fairly light. There was quite a bit of shuffling around in who runs on whose tracks in this part of Texas for a while leading to some trackage rights agreements and some outright sales and abandonments. It would take a map and quite a bit of discussion to cover it.

However, this can be said:

AT&SF was not involved in any of it.

MKT, MoPac/T&P, and SP were all involved with each other.

BN (SLSF and CB&Q) were involved only in Fort Worth - Dallas - Waxahatchie.

 

[henryj]

Before the UP fixed up the Taylor to Temple section the Eagle took the MoPac all the way to Milano where it turned onto the BNSF route to Temple. UP probably let the Eagle use the Taylor to Temple track because it is not very busy. Temple to Fort Worth through Waco on the UP is very busy and would probably cost a lot to divert too.

The MKT route Temple to Taylor was fixed up for Amtrak by MKT before it got absorbed into the UP Borg. As noted, the traffic volume was fairly light.

Thanks George for clearing this up. I did not remember when it was done or by who. I do know the Eagle/InterAmerican has moved around on it's routing, but has never served Waco direct. Personally, I think Amtrak wanted to still use the nice Santa Fe station in Temple rather than the old MKT depot and I don't think Waco has any depot's left from any railroad. To use the SF depot in Temple they had to stay on the BNSF route through McGregor. Temple is a larger traffic source than Waco because of nearby Fort Hood and the Amtrak timetable shows a thruway bus connection between Temple, Killeen and Fort Hood. I believe the MKT depot in Temple is still standing, but last time I saw it, it was boarded up and abandoned. I guess no one believes that Baylor Univ would generate enough traffic to justify a van or bus connection to McGregor. But then there is no bus connection between Phoenix, pop 4 million, and Maricopa for the Sunset Ltd. either.

 

[RichardK]

Not much surprise that MacGregor has small ridership. One problem seems to be a lack of interest in running a shuttle of any kind between MacGregor and Waco. From what we picked up when I rode the train there and met my wife (who was visiting her son, who goes to Baylor), nobody wants to pay for it. MacGregor certainly doesn't want to pay for a shuttle to benefit Waco, Waco doesn't want to subsidize a service that would benefit mostly Baylor students, and the school hasn't stepped up. I don't know to what extent it's ever been discussed - but Baylor is a private college with a conservative bent (its president is Ken Starr -- yes, *that* Ken Starr), so maybe public transportation just isn't a priority.
Now what confuses me is that Amtrak doesn't have a thruway bus from MacGregor to Waco - and then on straight down SH 6 to College Station and Houston. I heart Nacogdoches, but its 13k student body is a third of A&M alone - plus Baylor's own 15k.

(I hope I'm not taking the discussion *too* far away from the original topic of rail speed between Dallas and Houston...)

As you know, Baylor is 1.5 hours to either Dallas or Austin and 3 hours to San Antonio by car. The Texas Eagle takes 6 hours to San Antonio, even though many times it is an hour early. The trip to Austin is only an hour longer by train. Dallas takes almost 4 hours because of the routing through Fort Worth. Nacogdoches has a thruway bus connection to Longview and Houston. I suppose those Baylor students could utilize a shuttle to the Texas Eagle if they are going longer distances, have plenty of time and do not have any alternative. Most kids going to Baylor have a car or ride with friends to other points in Texas. They probably don't even think of the train.

As I have said before, we just don't have good train service in Texas, except for some local commuter rail.

The automobile is still king here.

 

[Daniel]

For people familiar with the Dallas-Houston UP and BNSF routes- has there been any major trackwork completed on those routes recently (in the last 2 years or so) that could allow for faster run times?

 

[Daniel]

Has any work (tie/rail replacement) been done on the Eureka Sub between Houston and Navasota in the last 2 years?

 

[henryj]

Has any work (tie/rail replacement) been done on the Eureka Sub between Houston and Navasota in the last 2 years?

None.

 

[william]

Henryj......The track between Houston and Hempstead was worked within the last two years with replacement of some ties and is in good condition,Last week there was track equipment sitting in Waller Tx.I travel the highway next to the tracks frequently and have seen freight traveling 45 to 50 mph.How ever not many trains use the line.Rock trains and the Navasota turn are the major use. Commuter rail has been proposed between Houston and Hempstead. .The track is in better condition now than it was in the last days of the Houston Eagle.But I am not optimistic about passenger service returning between Houston and Dallas.Extension of the Heartland Flyer to Houston would be great but I doubt it will happen.

 

[Daniel]

William, are they replacing large quantities of ties, or just a few here and there, such as at grade crossings?

 

[william]

Recently they have been replacing the grade crossings with concrete ones and repaving the approaches.Two years ago major work was done with many ties replaced and the rails leveled.It is continous welded track.I passed the Navasota turn recently and it was traveling about 45 mph,no wobble or bouncing.I have no idea what UPs plans are for thes tracks.but they are in good condition.Most crossings are signaled.Freight traffic is light.These are my observations as I travel the highway parralling the tracks between Cypress and Hempstead several times a week,but I have no observations north of Hempstead.

 

[henryj]

Recently they have been replacing the grade crossings with concrete ones and repaving the approaches.Two years ago major work was done with many ties replaced and the rails leveled.It is continous welded track.I passed the Navasota turn recently and it was traveling about 45 mph,no wobble or bouncing.I have no idea what UPs plans are for thes tracks.but they are in good condition.Most crossings are signaled.Freight traffic is light.These are my observations as I travel the highway parralling the tracks between Cypress and Hempstead several times a week,but I have no observations north of Hempstead.

They appear to be using the track for outbound mixed trains, probably overflow from the line out of Spring. Both lines come back together at Navasota. They do maintain the track in decent condition, but it's nothing special and the signaling on the line is just block signals. Sidings are hand throw. The line is also used for detours when there is a problem somewhere else. If you are asking about restoration of passenger service.......never going to happen. Except and unless Metro decides to start up commuter trains. But that's decades away from any thing definite.

 

[George Harris]

They appear to be using the track for outbound mixed trains, probably overflow from the line out of Spring.

A note of explanation: This means mixed freight. Mixed train in the past meant mixed freight and passenger. Mixed trains were ffairly common in the distant past on low volume branch lines when the speed on the parallel road was that of a horse and wagon, and remained on some lines into the automobile era when there either was no reasonble parallel road or it was basically a strip of mud. Up until somewhere in the 1930's some form of passenger serivce was provided on all or nearly all railroad lines.