Dinner Seating arrangement.

[Larry H.]

I mentioned a bit of this thought on another thread but think it might make a topic of discussion.

Does Amtrak need to rethink the way in which the diners operate toward the passengers. First of all I will say that some diner crews are great and doing a hard job, and that is no doubt an issue with the way in which they are trying to control the passengers.

However on the Southwest Chief we met at lunch a family going cross country the first time both ways. His immediate comment was that for the price he had to pay he expected something more "Luxurious" than the meals and appointments in the train. Its been my contention for a long time that the ever raising price of sleepers seems to be only met with reductions in services and amenities which if you spent that kind of money in a good hotel would be vastly different.

My real question here is in the way in which passengers have become something to "control", by the diner crew. Wouldn't it be nice to enter the diner and be ask "Where would you

to sit"? That would go a long way in its self to making it seem more like the crew was attuned to the passengers than trying to complete a job. We actually did have one lady on the Chief who did seat people in the center of the car instead of forcing the first passengers in to sit against the wall or facing the wall. In our case my mom had eye surgery and is sensitive to bright light. The Woman on the California Zephyr refused a request to be seated on the shady side of the car and her comment was "you can close the curtain". Well we wanted to enjoy the scenery, but didn't. She then proceeded to seat the next group in the shady side. How much of an effort would it have taken to let us sit there? It leaves a bad impression after spending well over a thousand dollars for the sleeper each to be treated like your just something to get in and get out.

No restaurant would stay in business long with that kind of attitude.

 

[gswager]

It might work out good if the patrons is light. However, they're trying to fill up every seats within certain amount of time, esp. with dinner time because others have reservations with meal time.

 

[TransAtlantic]

I don't know, I think a steak dinner is pretty decent, regardless of whether it's served on China or plastic; and as far as seating, if they convert to a diner/lounge, that will allow singles and pairs to dine alone. But really, isn't part of taking the train the communal experience? Sharing the journey? To isolate oneself - especially at dinner - seems VERY American in the worst ways...

 

[Palmland]

I don't know, I think a steak dinner is pretty decent, regardless of whether it's served on China or plastic; and as far as seating, if they convert to a diner/lounge, that will allow singles and pairs to dine alone. But really, isn't part of taking the train the communal experience? Sharing the journey? To isolate oneself - especially at dinner - seems VERY American in the worst ways...

We have met some really great people in the diner under the assigned seating plan. But -- I agree there is no reason for Amtrak LSA to be so controlling and often, officious, about where they seat people. Why not ask the passenger if they have a preference. That doesn't mean someone won't sit with them. On a recent trip on the Silver Star, the LSA actually let my wife sit across from me. I can't tell you how nice it was to be able to look at her rather than a stranger. A lady was seated with us and we had a pleasant conversation. I certainly don't agree that 'isolating' one's self is American in the worst way. What's wrong with going to dinner with your wife and having a nice meal and conversation. I'll look forward to smaller tables when we don't choose to socialize. If you look at the great trains of the past, the diners often had tables for two as well as one's for four.

 

[DaveKCMO]

last i checked, hotels aren't on wheels. adjust your expectations accordingly. and when was the last time anyone truly traveled in luxury in america?

 

[Larry H.]

We were perfectly happy to sit with others, actually that is the bright spot of the trip usually so thats a non starter. And sitting alone an taking up space is not something we were looking for either.

Its the way in which you are prodded to sit in a certain place because the crew wants you there. Read this again: When you go to the diner they have a tendency to start against the wall in seating people. If your the second couple in during the seating your often facing the end wall. I would prefer to be out towards the middle of the car, especially when it has all open seats in that part. If people come in last then maybe they should get the last choice seats and not the other way around. As the other responder said, what is harmed by asking if the party has a preference for where they would sit? As mentioned also, if you make a request to not sit where you are told, you have a tendency to get treated like an unruly passenger. Last time I looked we were paying there salaries not the other way around.

As to the comment on the Hotel comparison. No its not a hotel, but the price charged is reaching luxury class rooms where fancy food and fine service are the rule. When you pay that kind of money for a room, you might expect a bit more. The way railroads used to run the operation in the "grand old days", the passenger was treated like guest and not cattle. Can you picture many of the great movie stars that rode the Super Chief faithfully riding if they were treated to non working toilets, radar range food, and poor selection. I doubt it. You were selling a "service" and you acted accordingly. At least till the railroads decided they wanted you off the rails.

I didn't mean it to be a big deal, I just wanted to point out something that seems like you could improve the feeling of the passengers if you were asking there wishes instead of imposing the crews.

 

[Larry H.]

I nearly forgot. Bringing up the steak dinner. On this seven day trip we tried the Flat Iron Steak on several occasions and none of them held a candle to what they first started serving. Something has happened to the steak, at least for now.

 

[Rail Freak]

We were perfectly happy to sit with others, actually that is the bright spot of the trip usually so thats a non starter. And sitting alone an taking up space is not something we were looking for either. Its the way in which you are prodded to sit in a certain place because the crew wants you there. Read this again: When you go to the diner they have a tendency to start against the wall in seating people. If your the second couple in during the seating your often facing the end wall. I would prefer to be out towards the middle of the car, especially when it has all open seats in that part. If people come in last then maybe they should get the last choice seats and not the other way around. As the other responder said, what is harmed by asking if the party has a preference for where they would sit? As mentioned also, if you make a request to not sit where you are told, you have a tendency to get treated like an unruly passenger. Last time I looked we were paying there salaries not the other way around.

As to the comment on the Hotel comparison. No its not a hotel, but the price charged is reaching luxury class rooms where fancy food and fine service are the rule. When you pay that kind of money for a room, you might expect a bit more. The way railroads used to run the operation in the "grand old days", the passenger was treated like guest and not cattle. Can you picture many of the great movie stars that rode the Super Chief faithfully riding if they were treated to non working toilets, radar range food, and poor selection. I doubt it. You were selling a "service" and you acted accordingly. At least till the railroads decided they wanted you off the rails.

I didn't mean it to be a big deal, I just wanted to point out something that seems like you could improve the feeling of the passengers if you were asking there wishes instead of imposing the crews.

Years ago, while working at he Gideon Putnam in Saratoga. someone could make a serious tip placing a guest in his preferred table?????

Any of that on the rails?

 

[RRrich]

When we go to a resto, they tell us where they want us to sit, then we tell them where they are going to seat us. I really don't remember any problems along those lines on the CONO - they asked us to sit with some folks, we had no problem with that and we enjoyed our meals and the company. If there had been a problem, I would have requested (NOT demanded) what I wanted, and based on the strong "desire to please" I noticed from all Amtrak personnel, I have a feeling that they would have accommodated us.

 

[Mark]

Yes, I agree the dining crews can be kind of bossy when it comes to seating in the diner. On several occasions my wife and I were seated with other passengers as is normal but the diner was only half-full and remained that way for the whole time we were there. It would have been nice to have been asked if we wanted to sit by ourselves then told, that if the diner filed up, others would be seated with us. I mean how hard is that? Really.

I've noticed if you go for the later seatings you have a greater chance of sitting across from your spouse and having a private meal if you so chose but you do run the risk of the diner running out of certain dishes.

 

[AlanB]

Larry,

If indeed there are no missing details in your story about the request to sit on the other side, I can't explain away why the LSA couldn't accommodate your request. Even if they couldn't, it sure does sound like she could have been a bit nicer in refusing the request and perhaps explaining why.

As for much of the rest that you've talked about, that I can understand. Amtrak can't allow people to just pick their tables as they enter the diner. The dining car isn't like a normal restaurant. There are no bus boys to clear tables and bring water, and reset tables. There is no place to really keep people waiting while a table is cleared. Amtrak needs to maximize what space they have. That means making every effort to put at least 3 people per table and preferably 4. That means seating all people at one table at the same time, or as close as possible to the same time.

The reason is two fold for this. One, there simply isn't enough staff to go around and they need to concentrate on no more than 2 to 3 tables at one time. Spread people out, and that quickly becomes impossible. Second, people don't like sitting down at a table where others are already halfway through their meal or more. And it simply isn't possible to clear the tables that rapidly, especially with the staff cuts that SDS wrought.

Amtrak must maximize the available seating and that means that you don't get to pick your table, when there are two available seats when you first walk in the door. Now yes, different LSA's may start loading the diner from the center of car rather than the end of the car, but sooner or later, someone must end up in that end booth. There is no alternative, no way around that. To not use those tables would further cut the dining car's capacity. And that can't happen. As it is, capacity has already been cut far too severely by SDS. On a Superliner dining car, it used to be possible to serve 192 people for dinner. Under the SDS plan, they can only serve 96. That's barely enough to feed everyone who booked a sleeper and is entitled to a meal in the dining car.

During off peak times, it might be possible to be a bit more flexible. But during peak times, it quite simply isn't possible. Now again, I'm not saying that the staff can't be polite about things. But allowing people to just pick their table is not possible. Doing so will invariably lead to one of two things, either turning someone away or forcing them to sit across from someone else who’s busy eating their meal, while you await yours.

 

[jackal]

Today's trip was the first time I've paid attention to SDS in action--well, sort of, since the diner was bad-ordered halfway through breakfast. But when I went in during breakfast (shortly after boarding in DEN) to ask about getting a reservation or otherwise on the waiting list, I saw that the car was only half full and there were only two people serving the seated patrons. And when the dumbwaiter broke and everything started to hit the fan, the SAs just couldn't keep up.

Whereas before I was simply hopeful that someday Amtrak could pull itself back together and obtain proper funding, seeing this actually angered me that Congress refuses to fund Amtrak at the level it needs--angered me enough that I was actually somewhat seriously contemplating booking a trip to DC to knock on 535 senators' and representatives' office doors to tell them just how dumb the current Amtrak situation is. I made sure to let several of my Sightseer Lounge companions know just how I felt and told them to write their congressmen to give Amtrak the funding it deserves to preserve this national treasure we have in a manner that's not a disgrace to our country.

However, I agree that something--some sort of customer service training and coaching--needs to be done with the staff. Here's what I think part of the problem might be:

Having traveled fairly extensively and having worked in the tourism industry for several years (and meeting people from across the country), I've noticed that there's a certain brusqueness from people from the East Coast--specifically, the Mid-Atlantic states. (Isn't New York famous for it? ) It's rather off-putting to a laid-back, friendly, open West Coaster like me (especially after living in Alaska, where strangers talk to and help each other in a gregarious, friendly manner).

The problem isn't a bad attitude or dislike of the job or a desire to screw the customer--on the contrary, as RRrich said, most Amtrak employees have a strong "desire to please." The problem is the way in which many of these people come across--they come across as impatient, abrupt, curt, and almost gruff. These almost seem like stereotypical New Yorker attributes. Yet if you ask them for help, they're more than willing to help--if you can get past the rough exterior. That's also a stereotypical New Yorker attribute--walk up to a purposeful-looking businessman who's obviously in a hurry to get somewhere, and he initially looks like he's going to say, "Get out of my way; I don't have time for this," but if you ask him which way the Empire State Building is, he suddenly turns around, points, and starts giving [almost too-] detailed directions on which subway station to head for and which lines to take and stations to transfer at.

Judging by their accents and mannerisms, many of Amtrak's Service Attendants seem to be from that area. Therefore, the culture of the OBS staff often seems to contain that New York brusqueness.

It really boils down to a cultural gap. (Kind of like Japanese formality conflicting with American familiarity--a Japanese businessman would never go into a detailed discussion of his wife and kids over a business lunch, whereas Americans have no problem exchanging personal details with strangers and business partners.) It may work fine on the NEC or in areas where New Yorkers ride the train, since they're used to that type of an attitude. But that rough, inapproachable demeanor is difficult for many of us non-New Yorkers to digest. When you walk into the diner and ask about lunch and the SA seemingly snaps back with a curt "We're not serving lunch to coach passengers." (yes, period there for a reason) and then wheels around to go help her table, while I know she's not intending to be rude--just efficient--the manner in which the verbiage is delivered makes some of us feel disrespected as customers. If she had said "Unfortunately, our kitchen broke down and we don't have enough food and staff to serve coach passengers" in a warm, friendly, welcoming voice, I and the few other people who walked in behind me would have reacted with understanding instead of feeling like we got a verbal slap for not knowing. (Maybe part of her irritation was that she had probably made a P.A. announcement, but the P.A. in the Sightseer Lounge was broken and we didn't hear any of the announcements made about the broken dining.)

And had the SA who sat Larry H simply taken the extra five seconds to say, "I have to seat people in a particular order so that we can get as many people in and out of here as possible, so unfortunately, I can't" rather than "No, you can't sit there. You can close the curtain." (again, period there for a reason), I'm sure he would have responded much better.

So maybe Amtrak needs to take its brusque New Yorker employees and give them some customer service training and verbal skills coaching and soften that harder edge, especially for the ones working outside of the Mid-Atlantic area. I don't know--maybe I'm WAY off base here, but this is just the impression I've gotten in the last few Amtrak trips combined with my experiences with people from that region...

 

[Larry H.]

Allen,

I agree grudgingly with most of what your explanation went into. Maybe if with in the limited scope of what flexibility could be provided it could be possible to at least make small attempts by the crew to please the passenger rather than feel as though you have absolutely no choice.

I have not nor am I now advocating total chaos in the diner. I realize the staff is cut short. But after riding 7 days last year and 7 days this year so far I have observed some things which would not be totally out of the question. As you are being seated they could pleasantly say "would you like to sit here", I think 99% of people would say fine. If you had a special reason such as the "sun" issue, or some riding backwards is awkward then they might offer you a seat directly across from where your being seated or in the next row if that is full. Normally they have someone right behind you to fill the space so its not like your disrupting there system to a get extent.

I think as the previous writer and yourself mentioned the staffs are way under sized and I did indeed tell fellow passengers that the reasons for the quality of cars and service were thanks to your congressman, and recommended they write there displeasure. If staffing and full car use was working as it should some of these issues would be considerably less.

I rode many an old railroad diner and I can distinctly recall being ask by the Car Chief if some one could join me. They didn't just dump people on you without asking. Plus I also don't recall the regimented seating as is now described as the way you have to do it. I would almost bet the Sante Fe didn't operate that way and the other roads I rode didn't either.

 

[DKpartyguy]

After years of travelling on various Amtrak trains, I can honestly say that I have never had truly excellent service in any of the diner cars. Mostly the service has been adequate at best, and horrible at worst. I can understand that the attendants try to seat people together to fill up the tables, and to avoid using tables for just 2 diners, but they don't always do this.

On my last trip aboard the Crescent, I chose the last seating for dinner (as I always do). The diner was pretty empty and they gave me a whole table all to myself, which I enjoyed. I don't mind sitting with others, but sometimes I like to just have a quiet meal by myself and read a book or a magazine. The only times I ask to be seated at a certain table is when they try to seat me ( I travel alone) at a table with unruly children. I have had several meals ruined by screaming, kicking children as their parents sit there oblivious to their behavior. After the last one, I decided to be firm and flatly tell the attendant that I won't sit with childen at the table. They have not given me hard time about this at all. I feel that when I spend top dollar to get a bedroom or a roomette, I deserve to have a meal in peace.

I realize the difficulties of running a restaurant on wheels, but I do think Amtrak employees could be more attentive to the needs of the diners. On a recent trip aboard the Texas Eagle, I couldn't get a refill of my coffee at breakfast. I asked several times and never got more coffee. How hard would that have been? It was late in the morning and the car was pretty empty, and the attendants didn't look that busy.

I think Amtrak needs to seriously devote some effort to improving customer service in the diners, as well as the lounges.

Just my thoughts....

David

 

[Larry H.]

There must be a new policy against offering a refill for coffee because usually we had a hard time getting any more and I once heard the woman tell the passenger there was coffee available in there sleeper. I don't know if its the cost or if its the desire to get people in and out fast, but as you say it certainly adds to the feeling of being manipulated by the staff rather than a pleasant meal.

 

[Neil_M]

I nearly forgot. Bringing up the steak dinner. On this seven day trip we tried the Flat Iron Steak on several occasions and none of them held a candle to what they first started serving. Something has happened to the steak, at least for now.

I had the steak twice on my recent trip, once on the SWC from LA (but only on the 2nd night, on the first night they had ran out.....) and on the CL from Chicago. Both where fairly excellent and well cooked to my taste.

I have to say I enjoy the random seating arrangements in the diner, I have met some really fun and excellent people that way (and only one nutcase!), but I have noticed a tendency in some diner staff to be a bit abrupt with couples who want to sit face to face rather than side by side, cant see why that could be a problem.

 

[MrFSS]

My wife is one of those who has to sit facing forward or she has real motion sickness problems. We've never had a problem with the staff letting her do that even if the next place to sit was facing rearward.

 

[Larry H.]

I nearly forgot. Bringing up the steak dinner. On this seven day trip we tried the Flat Iron Steak on several occasions and none of them held a candle to what they first started serving. Something has happened to the steak, at least for now.

I had the steak twice on my recent trip, once on the SWC from LA (but only on the 2nd night, on the first night they had ran out.....) and on the CL from Chicago. Both where fairly excellent and well cooked to my taste.

I have to say I enjoy the random seating arrangements in the diner, I have met some really fun and excellent people that way (and only one nutcase!), but I have noticed a tendency in some diner staff to be a bit abrupt with couples who want to sit face to face rather than side by side, cant see why that could be a problem.

There may be a supply problem with the quality of steak they originally started with.. I rode some of the first diners after it came on the menu and it was wonderful, thick and juicy something like you would get at a good steak house. I was very impressed. The last times I have ridden they have looked flat like a sirloin and half of them was gristle. Nothing like the first ones.. Maybe different commissaries have different sources or maybe and more likely the meat has been down graded due to price..

 

[the_traveler]

Having traveled fairly extensively and having worked in the tourism industry for several years (and meeting people from across the country), I've noticed that there's a certain brusqueness from people from the East Coast--specifically, the Mid-Atlantic states. (Isn't New York famous for it? ) It's rather off-putting to a laid-back, friendly, open West Coaster like me (especially after living in Alaska, where strangers talk to and help each other in a gregarious, friendly manner).

I agree with jackal - there is a big difference in attitude between the east coast and west coast. I have lived in upstate NY, AZ, NV and RI. Besides the Superliner/Amfleet issue, I find a BIG difference between the attitude and friendliness of passengers aboard the eastern and western trains! I find the western trains are much more friendly than are eastern trains - even by passengers from the east coast!

I've encountered some of this attitude from some crews, and I do think some more training is needed. Not that you need to be laid back all the time, but you do not have to be a "Because I said so!" type all the time either. They both could both meet in the middle!

 

[the_traveler]

I have met some really fun and excellent people that way (and only one nutcase!)

I never knew we met! :lol:

 

[RobertF]

I don't know, I think a steak dinner is pretty decent, regardless of whether it's served on China or plastic; and as far as seating, if they convert to a diner/lounge, that will allow singles and pairs to dine alone. But really, isn't part of taking the train the communal experience? Sharing the journey? To isolate oneself - especially at dinner - seems VERY American in the worst ways...

I apologize in advance, this just hits my hot button.

Proud to be VERY American in the worst way then. I have times that I prefer to be isolated, what could possibly be wrong with that? Sounds like the typical, elitist, socialist, we know better than you do attitude which seems very UN-American and UN-Human in the worst way. If you want to socialize, be my guest. If I want to be by myself please let me do so without presuming to judge me in a negative light.

 

[MrFSS]

I have met some really fun and excellent people that way (and only one nutcase!)

I never knew we met! :lol:

Oh - so you're the one!

 

[BillVas]

I was on the Southwest Chief and the person in charge was a female and was tough. She told passengers you will sit there, and there are no subsitutions for potatoe. I did not care since I do not subsitute but so often I have been offered choice of potatoe or rice and it is the same menu, that she is working from.

There is no reason to not to have seated the couple where the shade was.

billvas

 

[RobertF]

I was on the Southwest Chief and the person in charge was a female and was tough. She told passengers you will sit there, and there are no subsitutions for potatoe. I did not care since I do not subsitute but so often I have been offered choice of potatoe or rice and it is the same menu, that she is working from. There is no reason to not to have seated the couple where the shade was.

billvas

Seems to me, in my totally unscientific sampling, that I've found that the Amtrak Employees come in about three types:

1. The You Vill Do Vhat I say or else type....

2. The I'll do anything I can do to help type...

3. The Do I really have to be working today type...oh man... do I really have to serve you type...

Very few in-between types in my experience.

 

[RRrich]

During one of our dinners on the City Of New Orleans, my wife and I were alone at a small table, at large table was a young lady, her brat and her boyfriend (those are what we assumed the relationships were, based on how they acted) The brat was totally undisciplined - yowling and demanding - he even spilled a glass of something (water, soda) all over the table and Mom so she had to go change her clothes.

My nightmare is being seated at their table!

At times wifey and I were seated with other adults and enjoyed their company