Dying veteran protests Spirit Airlines' no-refund policy

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Texas: Then I'm willing to argue that Spirit should have gone out of business. If your business model consists in no small part of "screw people over" (which is my opinion of Spirit's policy...and actually, from what I've read, they either have or had a $100 change/cancellation fee, but that may have been "for a credit"), I would argue that you should go out of business.
How exactly can they be "screwing people over" if they clearly explain their fee structure and refund policies before you purchase?

Here in the US we live in a "buyer beware" market. So long as Spirit is up-front with their fees and policies I put the responsibility for choosing them on the customer.

Anyone with five minutes of focused internet browsing should be able to figure out what Spirit is all about thanks to innumerable articles, reviews, forum posts, blog entries, and their very own website.

If you play fast and loose with your money then that's on you. If you don't like them then I would suggest you avoid using them.

However, openly calling for the sudden unemployment of thousands of working class folks should be saved for really egregious actions on the part of their employer.

Wishing that level of harm just because you don't want to pay a change fee for a mode of transit you've already admitted you never use anyway is a bit much. Seriously.

Actually, a somewhat serious question in all of this: What's Spirit's take on canceled flights and the like? I ask in no small part because Ryanair got in a huge amount of hot water during the Icelandic Volcano Incident over stuff in that vein.
Ryanair may have run afoul of laws specific to the European Union. Spirit doesn't fly anywhere near the EU and operates under laws which are more lenient in regards to canceled flights.

It's arguable that Spirit ought to push the travel insurance a bit more (and actually, a bad note goes to Spirit's PR department for not raising this as far as I can tell).
How do you figure?

In my case, trip insurance has never come up because Amtrak's policies are such that it would be very hard for me to end up out too much on a trip unless things went "perfectly" wrong. There's absolutely no incentive there, and I actually have no experience with a travel situation where I would need such insurance.*
This is just a guess, but I don't think Spirit is trying to compete with Amtrak...

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I'll say that this doesn't get around issues such as charging for seat selection...and assessing a charge no matter what seat is selected (and presumably not having an "I don't care, just put me on the plane" option).
I think we've found the problem in your argument. Too much presumption and not enough actual research.
 
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In a lot of ways, that's what gets me...there may be five ways to do something, but all (or all reasonably doable) options incur some sort of fee. That's been part of my issue with their fares being misleading: In a lot of cases, even after removing tax/landing fee charges and whatnot, there may be no way to get through without $X in fees, where X is a non-trivial number.
I'll agree with this point, that anything that isn't avoidable ought to be included in the basic charge. However, part of this, to my understanding, is that many (most?) airline taxes are based on the airfare. Fees are not assessed those same taxes. Therefore, a $100 fare will carry more taxes than a $10 fare with $90 in fees.

That is, until the powers-that-be decide to close that loophole and assess equal taxes to all airline fees, not just airfare.
I'll agree that everyone gets a semi-pass here: I'd like to see the advertised price be for "fare, taxes, and minimum fees". On the other hand, I also understand the issue with the taxes being based on the airfare and so forth making a mess of things. And on yet another hand, it would seem that you could just advertise some rolled-together cost (call it "Base Ticket Cost" or something like that) to act as an umberlla for "all of the above".

As to the seat selection charges: As I'd read it, there was a charge for selecting an aisle seat, a window seat, or a middle seat. Going on the assumption that there are generally no other options on their planes (as that would require something larger than 3-3 seating), that certainly gives off the impression that you'll pay one of those fees no matter what.

As to "screwing people over": Considering the pile of fees and charges that tend to get added at a bare minimum (i.e. the "Unintended Consequences" fee, the "9/11 Security Fee" [i think that's a fee, at least]), it strikes me that there's duplicity in the structure. Put another way, if Spirit advertises a $50 fare from A to B but there is no way to actually pay $50 for that flight (or even $50 plus taxes), then I would argue that they are screwing people over. I would also argue that a business model that probably requires a certain number of people to pay for a service and not receive it is inherently duplicitous.

Moving over to the Ryanair/Iceland question: Yes, I know Spirit does not operate in the EU, but it doesn't invalidate the question of how Spirit handles (in so many words) meltdowns on their end. That I actually don't know.

On the issue of hoping for the unemployment of folks: I hate to say it, but I would argue that there has been a much broader wish for unemployment in the drives for efficiencies in much of the industry. If anything, I think you could argue that annihilating Spirit's business model would increase employment in the airline sector by letting fares rise again. In so many words, you might well eliminate "over-efficiency".
 
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I'd like to see the advertised price be for "fare, taxes, and minimum fees".
That's what I see when I'm on their site. What are you seeing?

On the other hand, I also understand the issue with the taxes being based on the airfare and so forth making a mess of things. And on yet another hand, it would seem that you could just advertise some rolled-together cost (call it "Base Ticket Cost" or something like that) to act as an umberlla for "all of the above".
Spirit, like all US airlines and airfare aggregate sites, must show you everything you need to reach your destination (not including avoidable fees such as baggage and seat selection) rolled into one price. You may not consider baggage to be an avoidable fee, but some of us make business trips for meetings and such without carrying any baggage along. I mean, what's the point of carrying bags if you're only going to be in town for a couple hours for a single business meeting?

On the issue of hoping for the unemployment of folks: I hate to say it, but I would argue that there has been a much broader wish for unemployment in the drives for efficiencies in much of the industry. If anything, I think you could argue that annihilating Spirit's business model would increase employment in the airline sector by letting fares rise again. In so many words, you might well eliminate "over-efficiency".
Airfares are rising substantially across the board. In many cases they are now double or even triple what they were even just a few years ago. Numbers of flights and seats (and their corresponding labor needs) are being substantially reduced over time. Rampant consolidation is creating thousands of unnecessary positions that can be dumped on an already saturated job market. So where are you getting this idea that if we blow away Spirit Airlines total employment will rise?
 
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On the issue of hoping for the unemployment of folks: I hate to say it, but I would argue that there has been a much broader wish for unemployment in the drives for efficiencies in much of the industry. If anything, I think you could argue that annihilating Spirit's business model would increase employment in the airline sector by letting fares rise again. In so many words, you might well eliminate "over-efficiency".
That's a very curious interpretation of how economics works.

Airlines (and most companies, for that matter) don't hire people because they can afford to. They hire people because they need to.

If average airfares rise, assuming all else stays equal, the quantity demanded of air travel decreases. This leads to a lower amount of capacity that airlines need to provide to meet traffic requirements. Not sure what scenario has airlines hiring more people to service fewer passengers.
 
On the issue of hoping for the unemployment of folks: I hate to say it, but I would argue that there has been a much broader wish for unemployment in the drives for efficiencies in much of the industry. If anything, I think you could argue that annihilating Spirit's business model would increase employment in the airline sector by letting fares rise again. In so many words, you might well eliminate "over-efficiency".
That's a very curious interpretation of how economics works.

Airlines (and most companies, for that matter) don't hire people because they can afford to. They hire people because they need to.

If average airfares rise, assuming all else stays equal, the quantity demanded of air travel decreases. This leads to a lower amount of capacity that airlines need to provide to meet traffic requirements. Not sure what scenario has airlines hiring more people to service fewer passengers.
There are elements of both at work. Companies hire people because they need to, but they expand services because they can afford to (and presumably because it gives them an edge over the competition).

And your point on "all else stays equal" omits two important variables:

-The first is that, at present, there are a lot of markets where one or more LCCs are heavily restricting fares. A case in point would be to compare a flight to/from Des Moines to one to/from a similar-sized market with LCC involvement. Yes, this is going to be more extreme than your average market (DSM is one of the worst in the country), but it's an example. In a lot of cases, this has led to unnaturally low fares as the various operations try to run one another into the ground fighting for market share. I think Cornelius Vanderbilt had more than a few frustrated comments about having to do this with the Pennsy.

-The second is that, absent at the very least ULCCs, fares rising won't necessarily run off enough business to offset the higher fares. This wouldn't be an issue, except that more often than not, carriers have tended to use the added revenue to either run extra frequencies throughout the system/expand operations to new markets (which can beget a virtuous cycle of market growth) when they weren't trying to reduce debt.

As to what I'm seeing out there:

This jumps to mind. $19 may be great, and yes there may be those unavoidable taxes as well, but when you've got those other (unavoidable) surcharges thrown in (such as the "unintended consequences" fee)...yeah, there's an issue. I also cannot tell at what point (if any) they start throwing on fuel surcharges...and I've seen some other cases where those have been abused (for example, cruise bookings that quote a fare and then announce a fuel surcharge if the price of oil is over a price somewhere around $75-80).

Also, I can't get through a "dummy booking" without a login, and I'm not giving my email to those guys.
 
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There are elements of both at work. Companies hire people because they need to, but they expand services because they can afford to (and presumably because it gives them an edge over the competition).

And your point on "all else stays equal" omits two important variables:

-The first is that, at present, there are a lot of markets where one or more LCCs are heavily restricting fares. A case in point would be to compare a flight to/from Des Moines to one to/from a similar-sized market with LCC involvement. Yes, this is going to be more extreme than your average market (DSM is one of the worst in the country), but it's an example. In a lot of cases, this has led to unnaturally low fares as the various operations try to run one another into the ground fighting for market share. I think Cornelius Vanderbilt had more than a few frustrated comments about having to do this with the Pennsy.

-The second is that, absent at the very least ULCCs, fares rising won't necessarily run off enough business to offset the higher fares. This wouldn't be an issue, except that more often than not, carriers have tended to use the added revenue to either run extra frequencies throughout the system/expand operations to new markets (which can beget a virtuous cycle of market growth) when they weren't trying to reduce debt.
You're omitting one important point: Airlines aren't expanding capacity today, in fact they are reducing capacity, specifically because they want to keep fares high.

When fares are high, people don't fly as much. Think of a typical demand curve. When price is high, quantity demanded is low. When price is low, quantity demanded is high.

What has hurt airlines in the past decade has mainly been rising fuel costs. The result of this is that we are starting to see a reduction in air service because airlines can't raise fares high enough to cover those costs, because doing so does, in fact, drive business away. The markets able to sustain the higher air fares are seeing a reduction in capacity as airlines find it more profitable to fly a smaller plane full at higher fares rather than a large plane mostly empty, or even a larger plane full with low fares. That's why you see 50- and 70-seat regional jets on routes that, 20-30 years ago, saw DC-10s.

The airlines aren't using those higher fares to expand service. They're using them to stay alive. But smaller planes require less staff than larger ones, so that's a net reduction in staff (and, regional jets are also flown by airlines that pay their staff less, but that's outside the scope of this discussion).

The existence of low cost airlines in this country has led to a significant expansion in the number of people flying, because they can now afford to whereas before, they couldn't. Airlines like Southwest and JetBlue (and Spirit) have enabled more people to fly. True, they have taken passengers from other airlines, but there are still plenty of people who won't fly low-cost carriers. If you got rid of Spirit, some of those passengers would head over to other airlines (resulting in a small capacity bump on those carriers), but others would simply not travel at all. With a reduction in passenger traffic, there would necessarily be a capacity reduction. That also means a reduction in employment.

As for your initial example of DSM vs. similar markets with LCCs, what is the total number of flights to DSM vs. that hypothetical "similar" market? In many cases, LCCs entering a market has led to an increase in traffic. Also, your comment about airlines trying to "run one another into the ground fighting for market share" may have applied 10-20 years ago, but is no longer the case. This goes back to my point earlier. Airlines are being a lot smarter with their capacity, realizing that they can't afford to get into a fare war like they used to. That's one of the things that's driving the latest push for industry consolidation. The airlines themselves realize there are too many of them out there, and there's too much capacity, and that's depressing fares and profitability.

Bottom line, I don't see any real argument that says that an airline like Spirit shutting down will lead to a net increase in employment in the airline industry.
 
There are elements of both at work. Companies hire people because they need to, but they expand services because they can afford to (and presumably because it gives them an edge over the competition).
I have no idea what some unspecified theoretical "company" in some unexplained market is doing. All I know is that US airlines are busy consolidating their resources, shrinking their services, and raising their fares.

Your point on "all else stays equal" omits two important variables:-The first is that, at present, there are a lot of markets where one or more LCCs are heavily restricting fares.
That is no longer any sort of logical distinction. After a decade full of bankruptcies and consolidations there is no domestic carrier operating scheduled flights that does NOT employ the core elements of the "LCC" model at this point.

-The second is that, absent at the very least ULCCs, fares rising won't necessarily run off enough business to offset the higher fares. This wouldn't be an issue, except that more often than not, carriers have tended to use the added revenue to either run extra frequencies throughout the system/expand operations to new markets (which can beget a virtuous cycle of market growth) when they weren't trying to reduce debt.
I can't even tell what that is supposed to mean. :blink:

As to what I'm seeing out there: This jumps to mind. $19 may be great, and yes there may be those unavoidable taxes as well, but when you've got those other (unavoidable) surcharges thrown in (such as the "unintended consequences" fee)...yeah, there's an issue. I also cannot tell at what point (if any) they start throwing on fuel surcharges...and I've seen some other cases where those have been abused (for example, cruise bookings that quote a fare and then announce a fuel surcharge if the price of oil is over a price somewhere around $75-80).
That's what you're seeing eh? A post from May 19, 2008 at 11:37 AM?! :wacko:

Also, I can't get through a "dummy booking" without a login, and I'm not giving my email to those guys.
I think that pretty much explains everything right there.
 
Also, I can't get through a "dummy booking" without a login, and I'm not giving my email to those guys.
FYI, you do not need to give your real email to them. I just did a dummy booking using a non-existent fake email address, fake name and a non-existent residence address. There is another thread about Spirit going on under this forum, you may go check out my reply there.
 
Yeah, I see that. Sorry...some sites are finicky about that.
I don't think it's the site that's being needlessly finicky.
I'm going to take exception to the idea that I would need to log into a site to get a cost for a flight from A to B or for a round trip from A to B and back. Yes, it can be ducked, but I think that barrier is worth taking exception to.
 
Yeah, I see that. Sorry...some sites are finicky about that.
I don't think it's the site that's being needlessly finicky.
I'm going to take exception to the idea that I would need to log into a site to get a cost for a flight from A to B or for a round trip from A to B and back. Yes, it can be ducked, but I think that barrier is worth taking exception to.
Idea! Don't fly Spirit. You have lots of choices other then flying with Spirit. Why all the angst about how Spirit conducts their business when no one is forcing you or anyone else to fly them?

There's a post on Flyertalk from someone who, due to a family issue, had to make a last minute trip from Las Vegas to Chicago. The cheapest last minute flight they could get was $700 round trip. That was until they tried Spirit. Even with fees (and that person opted for choice seating), Spirit came in at $300 round trip. They saved $400. Yes, there were fees, and yes, if there was an irr-ops, they were hosed. But, they saved $400, and the trip was fine.

Walmart is not Nordstrom. Spirit is not United. It is what it is, and it serves a specific travel market. It must be doing something right because they are profitable, and their passenger count keeps climbing. It's not the way I prefer to travel, but I have no problem with how Spirit operates.
 
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Jerry Meekins

For those who missed it, yet another special exception was made for a certain group of Americans that is already uniquely privileged among the worker classes.

Here's the original response from Spirit that some folks didn't much care for...

We receive many requests for refunds every day for similar situations. It wouldn't be fair to bend policy for one and not all. We will not make customers who follow the rules pay for those who don't. It's just not fair.
Followed by a full refund along with another $5,000 in charity for veterans...

In my statements regarding Mr. Meekins' request for a refund, I failed to explain why our policy on refunds makes Spirit Airlines the only affordable choice for so many travelers, and I did not demonstrate the respect or the compassion that I should have, given his medical condition and his service to our country. Therefore I have decided to personally refund Mr. Meekins' airfare, and Spirit Airlines will make a $5,000 contribution, in his name, to the charity of his choice, Wounded Warriors. We have worked hard to build a great company that makes air travel affordable while making our employees proud and customers satisfied. All of us at Spirit Airlines extend our prayers and best wishes to Mr.Meekins.
Link: Spirit Airlines bows to pressure from veterans groups...

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Yeah, I see that. Sorry...some sites are finicky about that.
I don't think it's the site that's being needlessly finicky.
I'm going to take exception to the idea that I would need to log into a site to get a cost for a flight from A to B or for a round trip from A to B and back. Yes, it can be ducked, but I think that barrier is worth taking exception to.
I think your bogus airline punditry is worth taking exception to.
 
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