East LD trips from Michigan...

[thully]

Hi,

As I've begun taking LD trips on Amtrak recently, I've begun to be affected by one flaw in the Amtrak system as it stands - there is no good way to go east from Michigan.

Going west (as my last trip was) is obviously no problem, as you simply take the Wolverine (or Blue Water, or Pere Marquette) to CHI and transfer to one of the many LD trains there.

However, going east generally requires one of two things, with varying degrees of desirability:

1) From LNS, ARB, DER, or DET - take a Thruway bus to TOL which arrives around 10:30PM, connect to eastbound Capitol Limited/Lake Shore Limited. Coming westbound, the connecting bus in the other direction leaves around 6:30AM

2) Drive to (or be driven to) one of the IN/OH stations along the route - sometimes in the middle of the night - and catch the CL/LSL.

3) From anywhere - backtrack all the way to CHI, then take CL, LSL, or Cardinal (on days it runs).

I will say I've done #1 myself before, and it isn't bad in the right circumstances - those being when you're connecting to the CL (as you get on the train shortly after getting off the bus). However, when going to the LSL eastbound, you have to wait at least 4.5 hours in the TOL station in the middle of the night. Ofter it can be more if the LSL is running late (as seems to be the case frequently. Personally, #2 is not an option for me as I don't drive and don't have anyone who would be perfectly willing to drive me to TOL at 3 in the morning. I may do #3 at some point (it would be the only way to do the Cardinal), but with the LSL this still requires a lengthy layover at CHI (however, it is at least at a better time/place than the layover at TOL).

Anyway, I'm curious - have any other people from MI run into this? What do you generally do? I figure West Michigan people generally backtrack to CHI, but that takes a lot of time from ARB or anywhere east. Has Amtrak considered doing anything about this? At the minimum, I wish they would do a second Thruway bus to connect to the LSL(I'd pay more for the ability to *not* wait in TOL for 5+ hrs in the middle of the night). Making the LSL depart earlier would also help (swapping the CL and LSL departures would make it easier to get to a lot of New York/New England destinations quicker and without ugly middle-of-the-night waits).

Ideally, they would actually route an eastbound LD train through Michigan, though I'm not sure how viable this would be. Obviously, if not creating a new LD train (something I find unlikely for the near future), this would have to be an existing one such as the LSL - and would come with its own issues such as whether the gain of MI passengers is more than loss of IN/OH passengers, and how to route it eastward (Canada would make sense geographically, but Customs may require a lengthy stop at the border for processing even for a nonstop run which would kill the idea).

For now, I figure I'm taking the Thruway bus to TOL and doing everything I can to take the CL and not the LSL - even absurd things like taking it to WAS and taking a Regional to BOS instead of the direct LSL. I basically did this last Labor Day - to go to SPG, I did the CL and Regional combo instead of the LSL (as it turns out, the LSL was so late that day that it only beat me by 20 minutes...) However, that's not always an option - such as when trying to connect to certain routes. I do think you'd get more ridership in MI, though, if there were better options for going eastbound.

 

[the_traveler]

For now, I figure I'm taking the Thruway bus to TOL and doing everything I can to take the CL and not the LSL - even absurd things like taking it to WAS and taking a Regional to BOS instead of the direct LSL. I basically did this last Labor Day - to go to SPG, I did the CL and Regional combo

If you were going to SPG, why did you go to BOS?

Why not change from the Regional to a shuttle (actually an across-the-platform connection to a TRAIN) in NHV right to SPG?

 

[thully]

I didn't go to BOS - I was giving this as an example and then said I did something similar (I went to SPG via the Regional).

 

[gatelouse]

To me, the CL-Regional option is perfectly reasonable to SPG/BOS. Travel time is only about 3 hours more for a 24+ hour trip due to the shorter layover in TOL, and besides, the eastbound LSL leaves Toledo at a terrible time regardless of when your bus arrives!

 

[vwalton]

We've found the same problem, leaving from our home station, Kalamazoo. We've only gone east once, on the LSL, and when we did, we chose option 3, and backtracked to Chicago. Not a perfect solution, but, for us, the train trip is an important part of the vacation, and we are willing to spend the extra time/money involved. We book a roomette for long distance trips, so we can wait in the Metropolitan Lounge, and it's just more fun to get on the train at the start of it's run. Wish there was a more direct way, though.

 

[rrdude]

We've found the same problem, leaving from our home station, Kalamazoo. We've only gone east once, on the LSL, and when we did, we chose option 3, and backtracked to Chicago. Not a perfect solution, but, for us, the train trip is an important part of the vacation, and we are willing to spend the extra time/money involved. We book a roomette for long distance trips, so we can wait in the Metropolitan Lounge, and it's just more fun to get on the train at the start of it's run. Wish there was a more direct way, though.

Having grown up in the "Pleasant Peninsula" I wholeheartedly agree with you, but at the same time, find it incredibly lucky that Michigan's passenger rail service remained at all. If it weren't for folks like John DeLora (and all the folks at MARP) and Scott Hercik (MDOT) pushing, and pushing hard, it could easily have been lost.

Detroit was on it's continued spiral towards the toilet, and were it not for Ann Arbor boardings, some good political connections, and the prior mentioned efforts of a few, Michigan could have been left high and dry. Compare a freight rail map of the state from the early sixties-late seventies, to today. Scary. (I Know "true" nationwide, but worse in Michigan) Once they lost the Car float/ferry across the Straits of Mackinaw, the peninsula's rail future was set, at "LESS".

That's life on a peninsula.

I too truly miss the Toledo connection Amtrak used for years as an extension of one of the three daily trains, and the Niagara Rainbow, between Detroit and NYC. (although it really offered no "connections" to other Michigan Trains, one still had the option of getting to Detroit in the AM, to head east)

 

[Mackensen]

I live in Kalamazoo, and I've always backtracked to Chicago. This comes up for me about twice a year. I could also drive to South Bend or Elkhart and pick up the Lake Shore or Capitol there, but I'd rather get on in Chicago and board at a decent hour. With the Capitol Limited that also means having dinner on board. I admit that it's really frustrating passing through SOB on the return and knowing I'm about 80 minutes driving time from my house but I won't be home for 5-6 hours.

If I were in Ann Arbor I guess I might try the bus connection at Toledo, since that's four more hours in total on the train.

I do agree with those who say that Capitol + Regional is a reasonable choice, but I'd still prefer the Lake Shore since it ostensibly gets you into Springfield at dinner time and it's bound to be more comfortable.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Hi,

As I've begun taking LD trips on Amtrak recently, I've begun to be affected by one flaw in the Amtrak system as it stands - there is no good way to go east from Michigan.............

Ideally, they would actually route an eastbound LD train through Michigan, though I'm not sure how viable this would be. Obviously, if not creating a new LD train (something I find unlikely for the near future), this would have to be an existing one such as the LSL - and would come with its own issues such as whether the gain of MI passengers is more than loss of IN/OH passengers, and how to route it eastward (Canada would make sense geographically, but Customs may require a lengthy stop at the border for processing even for a nonstop run which would kill the idea).

For awhile in the '70s, Amtrak did have a train that ran east to Buffalo and onto New York City through Canada

 

In 1974 Amtrak extended the Empire State Express between Detroit and Buffalo. Originally it ran non-stop through Canada but later stops were added at Windsor, St. Thomas and Fort Erie. There was a separate coach to handle the Canadian passengers who were inspected when the train entered the US (Don't know how Canada Customs handled the US passengers "just passing through") The train was renamed the Niagara Rainbow and eventually rerouted through Niagara Falls, crossing to the US on the Michigan Central Bridge which is adjacent to the bridge used by the Maple Leaf.

Prior to Amtrak this was New York Central's and later Penn Central's main route from Detroit to Buffalo and on to Boston and New York. Multiple trains a day, some with sleeping cars only and running in several sections. Hundreds of passengers passing thru Canada between US destinations and probably most didn't even realize they were in Canada.

 

Sadly most the old NYC/Penn Central/Conrail route has now been abandoned and any thought of restoration would require a train to basically follow the route of a VIA Corridor train from Windsor (Detroit) to Aldershot where it would pick up the Maple Leaf route crossing back into the US at Niagara Falls.

Here's a shot of Amtrak's "Niagara Rainbow" at St Thomas, Ontario in November 1977........and the abandoned route today:

 

 

 

 

[thully]

I'm coming from ARB, so the backtracking to Chicago adds a *lot* of time to the trip - at least 8 hours in either direction (as such, I'd only do it if taking the Cardinal, which I may want to do at some point). Coming from KAL it would make complete sense to do so.

It would be nice to have a better connection at some point - or at the very least move the LSL to a more reasonable departure time. Re-routing the LSL via the Michigan line through Canada to Buffalo (and moving its timeslot to something like 6PM, which would in essence replace the last Wolverine out of CHI) would be great, but seems like a pipe dream. I do think having a direct LD train through Michigan would get a good level of ridership - as many people who wouldn't take a 3:20am train from Toledo would take a 11pm train from ARB/DET to go to NYP/BOS.

I saw in the PIP that they may make some timing changes to the LSL in addition to adding through cars from the Pennsylvanian (that would presumably go as far as NYP) to the CL. That would definitely improve things, though there would still be the bus/drive to TOL (however, that's less of a concern if the timing at TOL is better. As for now, I guess TOL bus+CL+Regional is the best option from SE Michigan (coming back, either CL or LSL works OK), though that sometimes doesn't work for same-day connections to certain destinations.