Empire Builder in need of spare equipment!

[Sue in KY]

Relax!
Have an open mind, prepare to have an awesome time, and be flexible. Chances are, you are going to love your trip - don't let a few very vocal complainers ruin things for you and make you upset. For the most part, things like this are discussed because they're out of the norm. It's no fun to sit and talk about the dozens of trains that run without major issues day after day.

Well, we’re retired, so we’re pretty flexible — and we’re really looking forward to the trip. With the past several days’ horrendous delays/cancellations of the EB, though, I keep thinking of the hotel we've booked for the evening after we’re supposed to arrive in Chicago at mid-afternoon ... and of the flight home to Louisville we’re ticketed for the next day!

Sue

 

[Sue in KY]

Customer Relations has been pretty reasonable in offering vouchers when I've run into issues with the mechanical condition of Amtrak's equipment. Just take detailed notes during your trip about anything that goes wrong that's clearly Amtrak's fault and not an act of God (or, probably, something caused by Congress's failure to buy Amtrak their own set of tracks) and call Amtrak and ask the first human you get for Customer Relations and let Customer Relations know what went wrong.

Actually, I’m not nearly as worried about getting reimbursed for unpleasant conditions as I am about the possibility of getting stuck for many, many hours somewhere between Seattle and Chicago, out of cellphone range and unable to cancel a Chicago hotel booking and to delay a next-day flight. That would trigger my Scots-Irish Penny-Pinchery mode!

Sue

 

[Larry H.]

I guess if you state the facts of your experiences then your a Complainer.. Guilty.. I do it because I love rail travel and would hope that someday Amtrak will live up to its responsibility and provide the service we all expect. I want the trains to be in a position where first time riders will love the experience and want to return over and over. For some who are pleased easily, this is already happening as is apparent by so many who accept any kind of train as better than none.. and perhaps it is. This is another factual account from our return on the Southwest Chief. A nice couple was seated with us at lunch, they were at least middle aged. He mentioned this was their first trip by rail that they usually flew. Now he was not a serial complainer, nor had he any other trips to judge by. His comments were that he was disappointed that the accommodations and food did not live up to what he had expected from the advertising. Will he ride again, I don't know? Should we care, yes. Does Amtrak care, I don't really know.. I keep watching for signs they get it, but so far I am not seeing them.

 

[Alice]

Alice,
I have yet another way of seeing this perhaps.. What if you purchased a 1,200 dollar refrigerator that wouldn't keep the food cold. Would that just be overlooked.. How about a car that is a lemon, would you take it back or just put up with it? Heck, probably if you purchased a 50.00 piece of clothing that was sewn wrong or came apart quickly it would get returned. How about a bad expensive steak, ever sent it back?

Why should Amtrak be any different.. Were expected and do spend good money, things should have some relationship to one another. I wouldn't stay at a hotel that had dirty rooms, would you. What if the steam pipes were banging so loud you couldn't sleep, would you complain.. In fact in Los Angeles at the Bona Venture the heat was nearly at 90 and wouldn't come down. You bet we complained. Only thing was there someone within minutes was there to apologize and fix it!

Larry, I definitely agree that Amtrak could do better. I shop at places where returns are easy whenever I think it is important. So I buy refrigerators locally from a shop with a good reputation and I read EBay reviews before buying cheap clothes from strangers. And I agree it is important to let Amtrak know where they need to improve, and to ask for refunds and vouchers no matter how small because money seems to be how businesses keep score. I even think complaining on AU is a good idea because if everyone on every train with a stopped up toilet were to write Customer Service, I think taking care of toilets might get a higher priority.

That said, I'd rather remember the good times and forget whatever problems I can't see as humorous or a good story. And that is what I was referring to in your post.

-Alice

 

[Alice]

Customer Relations has been pretty reasonable in offering vouchers when I've run into issues with the mechanical condition of Amtrak's equipment. Just take detailed notes during your trip about anything that goes wrong that's clearly Amtrak's fault and not an act of God (or, probably, something caused by Congress's failure to buy Amtrak their own set of tracks) and call Amtrak and ask the first human you get for Customer Relations and let Customer Relations know what went wrong.

Actually, I’m not nearly as worried about getting reimbursed for unpleasant conditions as I am about the possibility of getting stuck for many, many hours somewhere between Seattle and Chicago, out of cellphone range and unable to cancel a Chicago hotel booking and to delay a next-day flight. That would trigger my Scots-Irish Penny-Pinchery mode!

Sue

On long stretches without cell service, I found that text messages get through quicker because the phone takes care of it when it finds a signal without my continuous attention. You might set up an emergency contact to make phone calls if you text them. Also, you might make friends with other people on board with other service providers because they all have different coverage areas, and some phones have better reception than others even for the same company.

One time, knowing the CS is often late into Portland, I asked the rental car place to keep track of my expected arrival, and call me if they sent the car to the airport (with 24 hr service) when they closed. We were very late, I got voicemail with the contract number when we got over the Siskiyous, and they paid for the taxi to the airport. This might work for your motel. If not, you could have a stationary friend watch your progress and call just before the cancellation deadline.

Planes are a different matter. But I think you'll be within cell range before having to make that call. Trains don't seem to stay stationary when they are delayed, they stop for a few hours then move, or move real slow. That gives you added ability to find a signal.

One thing is hunting for a signal runs down a battery, so you might take your charger even if you usually wouldn't for a short trip.

I hope you have a great time! You've picked some great routes.

 

[anir dendroica]

Jeez ...
I'm beginning to wish now that we hadn’t invested upwards of $2600 — at the lowest bucket prices, yet — in our Southwest Chief/Surfliner/Coast Starlight/Empire Builder trip in two months’ time, if this (i.e., broken bedroom toilets, uncomfortably overheated cabins, suddenly cancelled trains, dirtiness, clanking doors that interfere with sleeping and don’t respond to passenger-supplied “fixes”) is the sort of thing Amtrak ever expects its “first-class” customers to put up with.

Can somebody talk me down here before I fly off into panic mode? :unsure:

Sue (who does tend to overreact sometimes)

Relax!

Have an open mind, prepare to have an awesome time, and be flexible. Chances are, you are going to love your trip - don't let a few very vocal complainers ruin things for you and make you upset. For the most part, things like this are discussed because they're out of the norm. It's no fun to sit and talk about the dozens of trains that run without major issues day after day.

Well my topic seems to have ignited a firestorm of complaints - not my intention but the complaints do need to be heard.

For those who are worried, note that most routes run on time 70-80% of the time, and when they are late it is usually by less than four hours. These past few weeks on the Empire Builder have been extreme with weather conditions, and I have to assume that weather-related delays lead to equipment failures either through operation in adverse conditions or through reduced turnaround times that limit equipment maintenance windows. When I rode the EB last winter it was on time or a few minutes late the whole way, and when I rode the Coast Starlight southbound last month we were 60 minutes early into Sacramento and 20 minutes early into LA. That route has a lot of schedule padding.

 

[anir dendroica]

More problems:

Extreme flooding and mudslides in Washington have I-5 and all major rail routes closed. Amtrak has canceled service from PDX to SEA and SEA to Spokane. Looks like the Builder will run through to Portland for the next few days.

With these cancellations, Amtrak lists all 7/8 trains as "service disruption." Sure makes it hard to find out where the trains actually are!

 

[amtrakwolverine]

What amtrak needs is money which congress does not want to part with and it also needs someone who cares about the customer and does not see $ signs in there eyes for every ticket collected.

 

[Larry H.]

What amtrak needs is money which congress does not want to part with and it also needs someone who cares about the customer and does not see $ signs in there eyes for every ticket collected.

Those are both the crux of the matter.

Alice: Thanks for the clarification, I get defensive trying to defend the indefensible if that makes sense. I did in some way not understand your underlying position. Of course I love to use rail its the best way to go. I would just like it to be what it should be, not a half hearted substitute. That is due to what Kiss mentions, a lackluster follow through by Amtrak. I grant you my self included could say that calling or writing Amtrak Customer Service or Management will get you a refund as it did us, and often some kind words.. What after 30 years I am expecting is someone to FIX the problems that they have to apologize for. That is partly a money problem, but also is a follow though one. Many of the issues that are complained about are never addressed in any real way.. Such as the toilets, cold vegetables, too hot, too cold, on and on. I guess I helped to supervise the way things looked at work for too long and was always aware that the customer was our reason for being, and that the best possible impression was the one we wanted our customers to have.. That is what is lacking.

As to that money issue. I can hardly guess what a tiny portion of the 1,000 Billion I now hear is in the pipeline for make work projects. How about new factories for American Made Rail Cars of "Quality". New double tracks on all main lines.. New single passenger tracks where feasible? Beyond that I am sure that if cars were to be operated and cleaned to the standards I read about on the Zephyr history thread were put into place we would put a lot of lower skilled workers to work also. All those things have been hampered by lack of money which should have been deemed necessary for proper operation of Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

What amtrak needs is money which congress does not want to part with and it also needs someone who cares about the customer and does not see $ signs in there eyes for every ticket collected.

Those are both the crux of the matter.

I'm not suggesting this as an excuse, but one thing that you both need to realize is that seeing dollar signs is exactly what the 500+ managers inside the Capital Beltway have encouraged Amtrak's management to focus on. Congress and the White House have gone so far as to micro-manage Amtrak by passing the provisions of "no new routes unless someone else provides funding" and of course the now infamous "cut the food service losses" which has given us SDS, Diner-Lite, and the CCC.

If every time you show up in the Capitol to answer questions from Congress, all you get is "cut the budget", "spend less", and on and on, then what do you expect management to focus on?

In my humble opinion we need to stop blaming Amtrak management and start blaming Congress and the White House for the money focus. It starts at the top and works its way down.

As to that money issue. I can hardly guess what a tiny portion of the 1,000 Billion I now hear is in the pipeline for make work projects. How about new factories for American Made Rail Cars of "Quality". New double tracks on all main lines.. New single passenger tracks where feasible? Beyond that I am sure that if cars were to be operated and cleaned to the standards I read about on the Zephyr history thread were put into place we would put a lot of lower skilled workers to work also. All those things have been hampered by lack of money which should have been deemed necessary for proper operation of Amtrak.

I wouldn't argue this at all Larry.

 

[yarrow]

In my humble opinion we need to stop blaming Amtrak management and start blaming Congress and the White House for the money focus.

i think there is still plenty to blame amtrak managment for. mainly their seeming disregard for their customers and subsidzers.

 

[sechs@chi]

Today's 7/27 a stub to MSP again. Supposedly due to weather in North Dakota (the equipment is here).

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The airlines are almost looking like they're worth it now...

 

[Ispolkom]

Today's 7/27 a stub to MSP again. Supposedly due to weather in North Dakota (the equipment is here).

The storm that hit the Pacific northwest is moving through, dropping another 5-7" of snow. It's been an especially snowy winter for North Dakota. One concern is that, since the snow doesn't melt between November and April, a warm spring and a quick thaw could mean flooding in the Red River Valley. That would, of course, mean more delays for the Empire Builder.

 

[Sue in KY]

On long stretches without cell service, I found that text messages get through quicker because the phone takes care of it when it finds a signal without my continuous attention. You might set up an emergency contact to make phone calls if you text them. Also, you might make friends with other people on board with other service providers because they all have different coverage areas, and some phones have better reception than others even for the same company.
...

Planes are a different matter. But I think you'll be within cell range before having to make that call. Trains don't seem to stay stationary when they are delayed, they stop for a few hours then move, or move real slow. That gives you added ability to find a signal.

One thing is hunting for a signal runs down a battery, so you might take your charger even if you usually wouldn't for a short trip.

I hope you have a great time! You've picked some great routes.

Hey, thanks, Alice — great tip about texting instead of making calls; I never think about texting. We’ll use our San Diego son as an emergency contact/reservations-fixer-upper — he's good at playing concierge for us! (He thinks of it as “taking care of the old folks,” I fear.)

Sue (who plans to take the phone charger along in any case, since we’re to be gone nearly two weeks)

 

[Larry H.]

Hi Allen,

You know I have been around here for a while now. I have taken any number of trips. I have run into any number of issues over the entire run of Amtrak to date.

I am well aware that the congress is at fault and I wish I could link to you the letters I have written on Amtrak's behalf to our Senator Durbin, who is at least responsive to an email. I have also written the to Senator and now President Elect Obama. I have written to others whom over the years have been involved in Amtrak Management in Congress. So I am not avoiding the money end of the issues with congress, so thats a red herring from my point of view. I know you can't know my past messages beyond here so your suggestions are valid, while not quite right.

Here however is where I am still unsatisfied with Amtrak, money or no.

I would bet that I have mentioned to Amtrak Surveys I have received and to on board staff, and to the Customer Service Management Rep. whom I have the email address of that the vegetables somehow were coming out half cold in many meals and has been discussed over time here as well. That is a matter of someone figuring out why that is happening and fixing the issue. That has not happened overall to this date.

The toilets have been complained about ad nauseam here and elsewhere. Amtrak has given out who knows or could even guess how many vouchers for trips and services that had the toilets ever been fixed might have saved many thousands of dollars and perhaps repeat business of persons who are less forgiving of things like that than we are.

Those curtains you agreed were an issue in the view liners and really on all trains, isn't a money problem that is at the heart of it, its personnel that are not taking care to order the correct layout of the velcro tabs. If only one person had finally decided to Standardize the location of those velcro pieces on the cars and curtains this would never have happened.. How many years should they run that way?

Those banging doors. I am just about positive that if one person with a bit of knowledge and skill were actually appointed to Fix that problem, something could be done to stop it. Personally I am guessing a few pieces of well placed rubber cushions along with a positive locking system would fix it. Those cars have been running for what, 20 years now with on board staff taping, wedging, and apologizing instead of it being repaired.

The recent Newspaper Reporters story about the Lake Shore pointed out many flaws some of which I did, such as the lamps not working.. Curtains hanging from a couple hooks instead of the full set, and other minor but overall showing a total disregard for how the accommodations actually are presented to the passenger. There should be a check list of items that need to be addressed when the cars are in the yards, I don't think anyone has or cares if there is.

In other words, yes congress has starved money, but Amtrak also has money it throws away by not providing proper conditions for passengers for one. And for the other someone at Amtrak should mention to congress that instead of wasting large amounts wrecking perfectly good diners or lounges a few of the basics might be better attended too.

I am not ignorant of the poor conditions placed on it by Congress. But that doesn't mean that the way in which it is operated is alright.. What you and I and probably every person interested in rail travel would hope for is that some day, maybe now the time has come for Amtrak to become a first rate rail passengers system, not a third world version.

 

[Larry H.]

Allen,

It really isn't just me.. Here is are some of the opening points of the Los Angeles Times reporter (I think) that is linked on the board. The opening paragraphs contain the following:

(Such is the combination of romance, ineptitude, serendipity and inefficiency that are the hallmarks of Amtrak, the national passenger rail service. You have to really love trains to ride them in the U.S. The journeys tend to be leisurely. Very leisurely.)

We see this critique of Amtrak's "ineptitude" in many reports about rail service.. Its nothing new.. My point is and has always been that somehow it falls on Deft ears it would seem.

Larry

 

[AlanB]

Larry,

I wouldn't argue most of what you said. My last response was simply in direct response to the post about "why is Amtrak management only interested in collecting the bucks and nothing else?" And my response was, it starts at the top with Congress.

And while you have a point that perhaps money could be saved by fixing things, rather than giving out vouchers and such, I do have to wonder if it's still not cheaper for Amtrak to just give out those vouchers rather than fixing things. I'm sure we've all heard the stories of how the number crunchers at the automotive companies have figured out that it's often cheaper to pay a few lawsuits, rather than issuing a recall for a problem.

All that said, I personally do think and believe that change at Amtrak started under David Gunn and continued under Alex Kummant. Hopefully that will continue under the current leadership. Under Alex's term, Amtrak made several major changes at the upper levels of management that I for one applaud. Some results are already being seen, like some of the improvements on the NEC that largely are the result of a Kummant appointee, VP Emmett Fremaux. Unfortunately Emmett can't change the world overnight either, so he started with the corridor and at least as of a few years ago he still had plans for the other services that Amtrak runs, including the LD's.

But it does take time, and unfortunately money too, to implement those changes. I for one continue to hope that with the new directions being taken by Congress towards funding, and with people like Emmett at high levels of management, that we will continue to see change and improvements coming to Amtrak.

Finally in closing, since we're trading posts here, may I point out that I spell my name Alan and not Allen. Thanks!

 

[Larry H.]

Your right I can't spell, or don't notice.. Alan

 

[Neil_M]

Some of the points raised above are quite worrying and seem to show a lack of any effective management on the ground with Amtrak. Things like cleaning are subjective and a rail car is not the easiest thing to clean and keep clean especially when in use for 6 or 7 days round trip, but if it receives maintenance after that trip then it should be clean, especially public facing areas. All the little niggles are worrying to, the easiest things to fix, cost little or no money to do, yet things like the velcro strips still remain ill fitted. I can't believe that all the staff are so unmotivated that they just simply can't be bothered to spend a few minutes sorting each one plus stuff like the rattling doors. Makes me wonder if any of the maintenance staff ever use the service, I have worked in train maintenance for 28 years and travel by train an awful lot and you do become very aware of the things that are fine on shed but are a real nuisance when out on the road.

It also begs the question if you can't be bothered to fix a velcro strip, what else can you not be bothered to fix?

I think at the very least more 'in work' checks by supervisors and a final before departure check should be in the culture of doing things. At the prices charged for sleepers, its the least you should be doing.

 

[Larry H.]

Your so right!

Alan;

"I have to wonder if its still not cheaper to not fix things and give out vouchers". That is the whole problem. You and I as fans of rail have proven that we will defend, in some cases, and support in others nearly anything that engines can drag down the track in order to say that a train is still running. But here is the fallacy of that idea. In order to be really successful you have to offer a service that keeps people coming back. I know that recently passenger ridership is way up. I am happy about that. But it is a bit like a restaurant that opens and the lot is just jammed with cars for months. One might think, "boy they must serve good meals, look how busy it is". But ever go by a year latter after everyone who has tired the food has been there? The lot is nearly empty, finally it folds. That is a very real situation I see played out often. In relating that to Amtrak I only have to think of the people I meet onboard who for them its their first trip. They are not rabid fans of rail, but the advertising or some factor has got them to try it. For them a disappointing two day trip featuring the things I have mentioned, along with boring food menus for weeks on end, may mean its the only try Amtrak is going to get for that customer.

My point then is that saving a bit of money by subjecting people paying thousands of dollars to something like toilets that don't flush for days, expect when the attendant can make them work for a bit, is not something those passengers are willing to pay for again. We do because we love rail travel.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Your so right!
Alan;

"I have to wonder if its still not cheaper to not fix things and give out vouchers". That is the whole problem. You and I as fans of rail have proven that we will defend, in some cases, and support in others nearly anything that engines can drag down the track in order to say that a train is still running. But here is the fallacy of that idea. In order to be really successful you have to offer a service that keeps people coming back. I know that recently passenger ridership is way up. I am happy about that. But it is a bit like a restaurant that opens and the lot is just jammed with cars for months. One might think, "boy they must serve good meals, look how busy it is". But ever go by a year latter after everyone who has tired the food has been there? The lot is nearly empty, finally it folds. That is a very real situation I see played out often. In relating that to Amtrak I only have to think of the people I meet onboard who for them its their first trip. They are not rabid fans of rail, but the advertising or some factor has got them to try it. For them a disappointing two day trip featuring the things I have mentioned, along with boring food menus for weeks on end, may mean its the only try Amtrak is going to get for that customer.

My point then is that saving a bit of money by subjecting people paying thousands of dollars to something like toilets that don't flush for days, expect when the attendant can make them work for a bit, is not something those passengers are willing to pay for again. We do because we love rail travel.

Far be it from me, young rail fan I am, to comment on the logic of my elder, but--

Amtrak isn't exactly a new kitchen that opened up with fanfare and coupons, that is novelty and wears off fast. Trains have, and will be, a viable intercity method of transportation. The reason Amtrak ridership is up is money money money. Gas prices are up, consumers have less to spend, commuters have to re-think their strategies, ect ect.

Amtrak is not a novelty that will vanish. Amtrak is a niche alternative to conventional intercity travel that has become more popular because it has become more viable as an option for many consumers.

There are three key things that would have to happen in order to make Amtrak obsolete:

1. A car that is far mpre cost effective than anything produced today. Faster speeds, better gas mileage, more comfort, ect.

2. A MAJOR overhaul of the US Interstate Highway system to accmodate a 100% increase in traffic.

3. Railroading technology, specifically high speed rail, would have no development to compete with the development of a "high speed highway"

And even then one could argue that Amtrak will never be totally obsolete. People will still just not want to drive it themselves and will take buses, trains, and planes.

 

[Larry H.]

Heres the problem. Amtrak is a restaurant that has poor management and has let its rating slip from reasonable quality to poor, and seemingly no amount of prodding by consumers seems to get them to see it.

Your probably right in some ways. I was going to write about the fact that Amtrak sleepers are more like 90% elderly which have a different take on surroundings. But when I think of how I and others in the Metropolitan Lounge look now days, I guess most all trappings of glamor to rail or any travel mode have gone the way of the dodo bird.

I still resist the idea however that since its the only game in town it should operate inferior trains that are not well maintained. Especially considering the fact that the prices are those that in normal conditions would make one expect you were getting something more for your money. Plus as you know I don't condone sending cars out that are subpar from the moment they leave the yards. But I think that is a dwindling set of people and most likely the future is here and we won't like it.

 

[wayman]

Your probably right in some ways. I was going to write about the fact that Amtrak sleepers are more like 90% elderly...

Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant here, but if you're saying that 90% of Amtrak's sleeper passengers are elderly, I don't think that's accurate. Maybe we have different ideas of "elderly", but I would say most of the passengers I encounter in the diner who come from the sleepers are in their 40s-50s, with a few in their 30s and some in their 60s+. And obviously there are kids and teens, but they're riding with their parents. Twenty-somethings in sleepers are very few, but most twenty-somethings on Amtrak are college students who are totally comfortable sleeping in coach. I'd say 80% of my dining car companions over the years have come from the sleepers, and of them no more than 30% have been in their 60s or older.

For the record, I'm 31, traveled by sleeper only once in my 20s (when Amtrak offered me a super-cheap last-minute upgrade), and once just last month (though since that was a day-trip I would've gone coach if it hadn't been sold out). But I intend to go by sleeper for my next multi-night trip (granted, by AGR so I won't be paying for it), as I start to enter the "sleeping car demographic" (But I refuse to say it's because I'm getting older! Just more skilled at accumulating AGR points :lol: )

 

[Larry H.]

The percentages of "older" passengers then is in the sleepers compared to coach I would say.