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XNWA

Service Attendant
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
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102
Location
Atlanta
Am I correct in reading the posts, that the EB has not gone to SDS? Do they have a different menue, china instead of plastic?

Thanks for any feedback.
 
No train has converted to SDS. Most trains have converted to Diner-Lite, which is a much different animal than SDS. SDS is the trial service that is about to be tested on the Captiol Limited in the next month. I do not believe there are any plans (at this time) to convert the Builder to SDS. I believe the company plans to keep this route as its flagship route, retaining the characteristics of what will soon be a train of yesteryear, upgraded sleeping cars, etc.
 
battalion51 said:
No train has converted to SDS. Most trains have converted to Diner-Lite, which is a much different animal than SDS. SDS is the trial service that is about to be tested on the Captiol Limited in the next month. I do not believe there are any plans (at this time) to convert the Builder to SDS. I believe the company plans to keep this route as its flagship route, retaining the characteristics of what will soon be a train of yesteryear, upgraded sleeping cars, etc.
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BAT51, actually, you have them backwards. SDS was the internal name for the simplification of the menu and the change in staffing in the Dining cars. Diner-Lite was the internal name for the cominged dining car/lounge car. All long distance trains, with the exception of the EB and the Auto Train are using the new menus. It remains to be seen what trains will use the combination dining/lounge car. There are several names being suggested for the new dining/lounge car, but a final decision has not yet been reached.
 
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haolerider said:
battalion51 said:
No train has converted to SDS. Most trains have converted to Diner-Lite, which is a much different animal than SDS. SDS is the trial service that is about to be tested on the Captiol Limited in the next month. I do not believe there are any plans (at this time) to convert the Builder to SDS. I believe the company plans to keep this route as its flagship route, retaining the characteristics of what will soon be a train of yesteryear, upgraded sleeping cars, etc.
Click to expand...
BAT51, actually, you have them backwards. SDS was the internal name for the simplification of the menu and the change in staffing in the Dining cars. Diner-Lite was the internal name for the cominged dining car/lounge car. All long distance trains, with the exception of the EB and the Auto Train are using the new menus. It remains to be seen what trains will use the combination dining/lounge car. There are several names being suggested for the new dining/lounge car, but a final decision has not yet been reached.
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Correct, SDS (Simplified Dining Service) is the program that was implimented earlier this year. Diner Lite, is the program that enters testing this month on the Capitol Limited, using the combined dining/lounge car.
 
AlanB said:
haolerider said:
battalion51 said:
No train has converted to SDS. Most trains have converted to Diner-Lite, which is a much different animal than SDS. SDS is the trial service that is about to be tested on the Captiol Limited in the next month. I do not believe there are any plans (at this time) to convert the Builder to SDS. I believe the company plans to keep this route as its flagship route, retaining the characteristics of what will soon be a train of yesteryear, upgraded sleeping cars, etc.
Click to expand...
BAT51, actually, you have them backwards. SDS was the internal name for the simplification of the menu and the change in staffing in the Dining cars. Diner-Lite was the internal name for the cominged dining car/lounge car. All long distance trains, with the exception of the EB and the Auto Train are using the new menus. It remains to be seen what trains will use the combination dining/lounge car. There are several names being suggested for the new dining/lounge car, but a final decision has not yet been reached.
Click to expand...
Correct, SDS (Simplified Dining Service) is the program that was implimented earlier this year. Diner Lite, is the program that enters testing this month on the Capitol Limited, using the combined dining/lounge car.
Click to expand...
Is there anyway.to pull up a menue for the EB besides the ones on the

Amtrak website? Thanks for all the replys.
 
XNWA said:
Is there anyway.to pull up a menue for the EB besides the ones on the Amtrak website? Thanks for all the replys.
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Sadly, no, that one is not available. :(

However if you remember the old menus from a year ago, it closely parallels them.
 
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Like I said earlier, I think the idea is to maintain the Builder as a flagship route. Looks like Acela, Auto Train, and the Builder will be the three flagships.
 
rmgreenesq said:
Does anybody know why the Empire Builder was spared SDS? It seems a bit silly to have two menus.
Rick
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Actually Amtrak has 3 different menus for SDS service. That's in addtion to the old style menu still in use on the Empire Builder and the very unique menu in use on the Auto Train. The Auto Train has always had a different menu from the rest of Amtrak, in part because everyone gets a meal even those riding in coach.

To your main question, the Empire Builder was spared because of the revitalization program that was launched last year. That included better service in the dining car, wine tastings, the refurbished sleepers, and a few other little items. It was felt that down-grading dining car service would hurt the major ridership gains that had been achieved since the revitalized EB started running.

And so far it has been proven that it was a wise choice. Unfortunately no one at Amtrak has as of yet gone back to Congress to ask them to remove the demmand to cut food service losses, since the EB experiement has proved that increasing service is the correct answer, not cutting service like the current plan is with SDS and Diner Lite for the rest of the LD system.
 
AlanB said:
rmgreenesq said:
Does anybody know why the Empire Builder was spared SDS? It seems a bit silly to have two menus.

Rick
Click to expand...
Actually Amtrak has 3 different menus for SDS service. That's in addtion to the old style menu still in use on the Empire Builder and the very unique menu in use on the Auto Train. The Auto Train has always had a different menu from the rest of Amtrak, in part because everyone gets a meal even those riding in coach.

To your main question, the Empire Builder was spared because of the revitalization program that was launched last year. That included better service in the dining car, wine tastings, the refurbished sleepers, and a few other little items. It was felt that down-grading dining car service would hurt the major ridership gains that had been achieved since the revitalized EB started running.

And so far it has been proven that it was a wise choice. Unfortunately no one at Amtrak has as of yet gone back to Congress to ask them to remove the demmand to cut food service losses, since the EB experiement has proved that increasing service is the correct answer, not cutting service like the current plan is with SDS and Diner Lite for the rest of the LD system.
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It makes sense to keep the Auto Train seperate. It is provisioned in Lorton or Sanford, not Chicago or New York or Los Angeles.

It seems strange that Amtrak Management looked to cut losses by lowering the quality of the food. You'd think that if a similar revitalzation program was run system-wide (and not just the Empire Builder) the losses could be made up with revenue and cost savings instead of straight cost savings. For example, I read in another thread on here that the NEC's revenue grew by 16% but ridership fell by 1.6%. That looks to me that Amtrak is begining to figure out how to price their product and who their market really is.

I also think it is interesting that SDS has three menus, but after four LD train rides, we only saw two of those menus and the food across the two (and presumably third) menus is simply varations on a theme. The food is a major theme in the trip report which will be posted as soon as I can fix the pictures. I'm using a different product and technique to render the HTML so the mac users among us will not complain (as loudly).

Finally, with the wind change in Washington, I'd be willing to bet that Amtrak's lobbyists errr I mean governmental affiars office should be able to get rid of or change that mandate. I just hope they then get rid of SDS.

Rick
 
Honestly I think we've past the point of no return. I don't forsee regular Dining Car service system-wide for some time to come.
 
rmgreenesq said:
It makes sense to keep the Auto Train seperate. It is provisioned in Lorton or Sanford, not Chicago or New York or Los Angeles.
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Those aren't the only places that Amtrak trains are restocked. There are commissaries also in Miami, Boston, New Orleans, San Antonio, Seattle, Portland, and Washington DC.

rmgreenesq said:
It seems strange that Amtrak Management looked to cut losses by lowering the quality of the food. You'd think that if a similar revitalzation program was run system-wide (and not just the Empire Builder) the losses could be made up with revenue and cost savings instead of straight cost savings. For example, I read in another thread on here that the NEC's revenue grew by 16% but ridership fell by 1.6%. That looks to me that Amtrak is begining to figure out how to price their product and who their market really is.
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Lowering the food quality was really more of a side effect, it was not the main way to cut the losses. The main cost cutting factor was the cutting of staff, which is what really dictated the changes in food preperation. After all, more than half the items on the old menu (still in use on the EB) are prepared off the train and just reheated onboard.

I've no doubt that had Amtrak embarked on a system wide program similar to the EB, that for most of the LD service they would have seen revenues increase and therefore losses decrease. There are a few runs where in all honesty Diner Lite might actually be a good choice, especially during off peak times. But there are plenty of runs where Diner Lite and SDS are the wrong answer. But in typical bureaucratic fashion, when handed a directive to cut costs, those in charge have a one track mind. That mind set says, cut salaries since that is the biggest cost around.

rmgreenesq said:
I also think it is interesting that SDS has three menus, but after four LD train rides, we only saw two of those menus and the food across the two (and presumably third) menus is simply varations on a theme.
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If you're curious you can find the three menus here.
 
Isn't EB also basically the one LD train that is almost exclusively running on BNSF, so that with the refurb to EB they were able to provide high-quality on-board-services, good equipment, AND a decent OTP? I don't know how successful having the high-quality on-board services would be if the train couldn't run at least close to on-time. Seems like both those things really need to be present if you want a good chance of building the clientele. And perhaps that was at least part of their thought process in making that decision (assuming there was a thought process and not simply some desk-jockey bureaucrat's knee-jerk reactions).
 
Yes, the EB's OTP is one of the best of the long distance trains. And even when it is late, it's pretty rare that is more than 6 hours late. About the only time it is super late is when there has been a derailment that closes the line.

I'm also not positive, but I do think that it was David Gunn who picked the EB for the experiment. At the very least it was implimented under his leadership.
 
Are we really past the point of no return?

I have always thought that Amtrak is like the tall sunflower plant in the wind...depending on which way the wind blows(Repulican or Democrat), things bend and change. Now with a new Congress, a new Amtrak President, a new Transportation Secretary, and new Amtrak Board Members who knows what can happen, and what will freeze in it's tracks (SDS as an example)?

I wish we could have some solidity at some of these key positions (eg. an Amtrak President who serves longer than 3 years, and who is willing to get out on a regular basis and see the railroad and the people who work for it)...maybe some decent future planning could be done.

I hate to harp on it, but as mentioned in the editorial of Dec. Trains Magazine, slowly falling apart equipment is going to be the make or break point for the immediate future.
 
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The rumors I've read state that the Zephyr was supposed to be the first upgraded train, but since Amtrak didn't want to have its new premier train run so late all the time, they went with the Empire Builder instead.
 
yarrow said:
was the plan to upgrade the ld trains actually killed or just quietly forgotten when gunn was forced out?
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I'm not sure if there was a plan beyond the bold EB experiment, but if there was then I'm sure that it included a waiting period to see just how the EB eperiment worked. Not to mention giving Beech Grove time to turn out more refurbished cars.
 
A friend of mine told me that an Amtrak official noted, either at a NARP board meeting, or some other transport conference, that there were plans to expand the upgrade program beyond the Empire Builder. Supposedly, the Zephyr was still on the list (perhaps even the next one to get the treatment). This was, however, when Gunn was still there (it might have even been a week or two before his firing). I haven't heard anything since.

The sleepers are still going through the rebuild process, so it's not like it would take *too* much to try another train.
 
They run on Metra, in the Chicagoland area, and then CP's former Soo Line to St. Paul. All BNSF after that.
 
AmtrakWPK said:
Isn't EB also basically the one LD train that is almost exclusively running on BNSF
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As Bat51 pointed out, the Empire Builder runs on Metra, CP, and BNSF (along with the occasional tiny short-line here or there for a few feet, such as Minnesota Commerical around the St. Paul Station).

However, I think the Southwest Chief probably has more miles on BNSF. I don't know what railroad it uses around LAX (if Metrolink owns the line in that area, or whatever), but from outside of Chicago Union Station out to California, I think that line *is* exclusively BNSF.
 
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