Equipment Order in the works this year (2018)?

[jrud]

New Bi-modal DMU-electric high speed trains have started non-revenue testing in England. The new Hitachi built British Class 802 trainsets can operate at 125mph using a Rolls-Royce engine and quickly change to electric power to operate at 140mph. These trainsets could offer single-seat service connecting the NEC to other places such as Richmonds, VA; Newport, VA; Springfield,MA; replace the Empire Service trainsets and other trains.

Here are some links to these brand new trainsets.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/transpennine-express-class-802-starts-main-line-testing?image=27037

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/first-of-nova-1-bullet-train-inspired-fleet-leaves-japan-on-its-way-to-transform-journeys-in-the-north-and-scotland-2483541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

The 801 bi mode similar to the 802 has been in service. It had some teething problems though. I agree with your premise of how Amtrak would use DMU/EMUs.

FWIW. Class 801 is pure electric. 800 bi-modes have been around a while and are supposedly getting horsepower increases to match the 802s. There is some earlier discussion of these trains advantages and problems.

As another example of a modern locomotive hauled passenger train. It will be diesel at first and switch to electric when the infrastructure is in place. http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/17/de-awaiting-electrification-the-chemnitz-leipzig-passenger-trains-get-an-upgrade/

 

[jrud]

New Bi-modal DMU-electric high speed trains have started non-revenue testing in England. The new Hitachi built British Class 802 trainsets can operate at 125mph using a Rolls-Royce engine and quickly change to electric power to operate at 140mph. These trainsets could offer single-seat service connecting the NEC to other places such as Richmonds, VA; Newport, VA; Springfield,MA; replace the Empire Service trainsets and other trains.

Here are some links to these brand new trainsets.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/transpennine-express-class-802-starts-main-line-testing?image=27037

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/first-of-nova-1-bullet-train-inspired-fleet-leaves-japan-on-its-way-to-transform-journeys-in-the-north-and-scotland-2483541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

The 801 bi mode similar to the 802 has been in service. It had some teething problems though. I agree with your premise of how Amtrak would use DMU/EMUs.

FWIW. Class 801 is pure electric. 800 bi-modes have been around a while and are supposedly getting horsepower increases to match the 802s. There is some earlier discussion of this series of trains’ advantages and problems.
As an example of a modern locomotive hauled passenger train. It will be diesel at first and switch to electric when the infrastructure is in place. http://railcolornews.com/2018/07/17/de-awaiting-electrification-the-chemnitz-leipzig-passenger-trains-get-an-upgrade/

 

[jrud]

New Bi-modal DMU-electric high speed trains have started non-revenue testing in England. The new Hitachi built British Class 802 trainsets can operate at 125mph using a Rolls-Royce engine and quickly change to electric power to operate at 140mph. These trainsets could offer single-seat service connecting the NEC to other places such as Richmonds, VA; Newport, VA; Springfield,MA; replace the Empire Service trainsets and other trains.

Here are some links to these brand new trainsets.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/transpennine-express-class-802-starts-main-line-testing?image=27037

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/first-of-nova-1-bullet-train-inspired-fleet-leaves-japan-on-its-way-to-transform-journeys-in-the-north-and-scotland-2483541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

The 801 bi mode similar to the 802 has been in service. It had some teething problems though. I agree with your premise of how Amtrak would use DMU/EMUs.

In the latest Railway Magazine, there is a very brief article that includes a report that IETs (Class 800, etc.) have had problems during Britain’s recent hot weather.

 

[frequentflyer]

Yes, they are having teething problems with the Hitachi 800s, supposedly the 802s fixes most of the problems. The 800 is more a premium type product though, and the new Alstom TGV lite Acela 2s will have that segment covered on the NEC.

There are other EMU/DMU products out there such as Stadler which so far has a stellar reputation. And we know Anderson has talked to them informally.

http://railcolornews.com/2018/06/30/uk-the-very-first-flirt-uk-is-out-bmu-on-transport/

 

[jrud]

Yes, they are having teething problems with the Hitachi 800s, supposedly the 802s fixes most of the problems. The 800 is more a premium type product though, and the new Alstom TGV lite Acela 2s will have that segment covered on the NEC.

There are other EMU/DMU products out there such as Stadler which so far has a stellar reputation. And we know Anderson has talked to them informally.

http://railcolornews.com/2018/06/30/uk-the-very-first-flirt-uk-is-out-bmu-on-transport/

There are significant differences in the intended service for Hitachi IETs (800s etc) versus the Alstom Avelias. But the more restrictive British loading gauge also had a strong influence on the IET design. Even the to-be-built British HSTs (similar requirements to the Avelias) appear to be burdened with the small loading gauge.
The Stadler designs are very nice but any route with high platforms is going to require significant changes to the single-level DMU/EMU FLIRT. If you can go to bi-level, the EMU KISS can handle high and low-level platforms but a DMU version would require significant work.

Siemens has the only current modern train sets in the USA that can operate on high/low platforms and not under catenary.

Time will tell if others are going to invest the money needed to handle all the variations in the USA market.

 

[NSC1109]

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/Amtrak-State_EQ_CAPEX_CIP_2018_approved%2012-19-17.pdf

In absence of the July 2018 minutes from the Next Generation Equipment Committee, I found the above attachment on their website. The information is relatively current and meant for FY2018 - FY2022.

 

[jrud]

This order includes tri-mode trains of diesel-battery-overhead electric. The battery is both for street running and to eliminate the need to electrify trough tunnels and under bridges to save on route electrification costs. Is there anywhere in the USA that would be a lot easier to electrify if they used battery power for short stretches? https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/wales-borders-electric-train-order-confirmed.html

 

[Steve4031]

Maybe through the tunnels in Washington, D.C. for trains continuing south. But that assumes that the line to Richmond is electrified. How far can these trains operate on battery power?

 

[jrud]

Maybe through the tunnels in Washington, D.C. for trains continuing south. But that assumes that the line to Richmond is electrified. How far can these trains operate on battery power?

Another link: http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/13/uk-official-stadler-is-preferred-bidder-to-supply-71-trains-for-wales-borders-video/

It’s not obvious how far they can run on batteries as it is mostly to avoid a slew of bridge modifications that go over the line. And they have diesels for the totally non-electric routes. But there is a lot of flexibility in the basic Stadler concept of a separate car (or cars) with batteries-diesels-fuel cells-etc. in the middle of the train. If you need more batteries they can make room.

 

[jis]

For seamless operation to south of Washington to Richmond and points beyond one would use electric and diesel dual mode. I don’t think anyone will use batteries for that service.

 

[cpotisch]

I would note that the likely humongous batteries needed to run a whole train will probably end up losing some of their capacity and wearing out after not too long. The larger the battery, the quicker it can wear out, so I don't think that that's a good long-term idea for a train, not to mention a how complicated a "tri-mode" transit would have to be.

 

[jis]

I would note that the likely humongous batteries needed to run a whole train will probably end up losing some of their capacity and wearing out after not too long. The larger the battery, the quicker it can wear out, so I don't think that that's a good long-term idea for a train, not to mention a how complicated a "tri-mode" transit would have to be.

Technically it is not really that complex. The problem is carrying around too much dead weight, which should be avoided if possible. It is impractical to do so over large distances, so I doubt they will be used for long distance intercity trains, beyond electric/diesel bi-mode, which are used quite extensively already.

BTW, there are very few humongous monolithic large batteries. They are usually large packs of small batteries connected together to provide the capacity. The battery in my Plugin Prius can actually be fixed by replacing individual cells that go bad, So the theory of large batteries failing faster is a bit of a myth based on incorrect understanding of how they are constructed. Also, the usable life of a battery depends quite a bit on the charging and discharging discipline, which can be electronically controlled to a large extent, irrespective of the size of the battery pack.

 

[PVD]

I only agree partially. Some of the largest batteries have the longest lives amongst the common battery types. Very large wet cell stationary batteries like the ones traditionally used in telco central offices, if properly maintained, have 15-20 year expected lives. Because they are not designed for frequent cycling, are extremely heavy,and filled with acid they would not be suitable for a transit application. The lifespan of lithium ion batteries used in bus apps is not bad, and their energy density is much higher, but a train would need way more energy storage than a bus.Batteries might be useful for relatively short gaps, but not for a long service yet. Because of the research done in battery technology to further enable renewable energy, particularly wind and pv,, huge strides have been made, and more happens every day, but we are not there (for a long train run) yet.

 

[cpotisch]

BTW, there are very few humongous monolithic large batteries. They are usually large packs of small batteries connected together to provide the capacity. The battery in my Plugin Prius can actually be fixed by replacing individual cells that go bad, So the theory of large batteries failing faster is a bit of a myth based on incorrect understanding of how they are constructed. Also, the usable life of a battery depends quite a bit on the charging and discharging discipline, which can be electronically controlled to a large extent, irrespective of the size of the battery pack.

I'm pretty sure that the larger the capacity, the more prone it is to being overstressed and subsequently losing capacity. And while of course they could control it such that it will keep the batteries between 40% and 80% for minimal stress and lost capacity, that does mean it can only go 40% as far by battery. My point is, it will experience stress and lost capacity overtime, and while the losses can try to be reduced, that usually will require more limited usage and reduced range. Just my opinion.

 

[PVD]

People almost always forget that batteries are generally really packs of cells. Like a 12v car battery is actually 6 cells in series. There are some utility scale battery storage projects (multiple mw) and they are made up of rack mounted modules, (Lithium Ion) each of which consists of multiple cells in series and parallel to get the desired voltage and current. The cells are not field swappable because of the way the modules are assembled, but individual modules are. they are also connected to battery monitoring systems that look at many parameters.

 

[PVD]

Capacity is not the factor, design is. Different chemistry and manufacture yields very different products each suitable for very specific purposes. In most but not all cases, a very large battery is just an assembly of lots of smaller ones. Exceptions would be large wet cells, flow batteries like vanadium redox, or some of the new "seawater" designs.

 

[frequentflyer]

Hmm, talking about batteries, apparently Stadler has a train with that.

http://railcolornews.com/2018/08/13/uk-official-stadler-is-preferred-bidder-to-supply-71-trains-for-wales-borders-video/

Oops, I see this article has been posted already. Anyway to turn this back to Amtrak, Anderson has been talking to Stadler too about a possible order. That FLIRT platform sure is flexible. From metro to intercity configurations.

 

[jis]

Stadler products, of the diesel variety, mostly GTW derivatives, are used by several transit agencies in the US. The first use was by NJ Transit on the RiverLINE AFAIR. I believe the Canadians also use their product in Ottawa, or at least did at one time.

I rode one of their products in Austin a month back.

Image from Wikimedia:

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Personally I think electric trains with fast charging high density batteries and modern regenerative breaking could turn out to be a useful tool for deploying renewable energy solutions beyond today's electrified networks. If modern tech can make batteries work for buses, semi trucks, and heavy mining equipment an electric train should be easier and more efficient by comparison.

 

[PVD]

The primary obstacle (Buy America) to Amtrak business has been removed with the FLIRT project for TexRail being assembled here. Next is a higher floor for level boarding at existing high platforms along with traps, and there is no reason to believe they can't do it if they want to pursue it.

 

[jis]

Just like in the old days of steam there were water collecting trough sections of track where the engine could replenish its water supply while running, in these electric days there could be segments of track with inductive charging rail that could recharge the battery on the train while it is running. In general such things are workable where operations are more predictable than what we find on the intercity network these days in the US. That is why I thihnk we will see their use in transit first, and probably won;t see their use in main line operations for quite a while yet.

 

[frequentflyer]

The primary obstacle (Buy America) to Amtrak business has been removed with the FLIRT project for TexRail being assembled here. Next is a higher floor for level boarding at existing high platforms along with traps, and there is no reason to believe they can't do it if they want to pursue it.

Yes, Stadler opened a plant near Salt Lake City to be USA compliant.

The center "power car" in the Stadler trains is genius and much simpler than Hitachi's 802 trains for EMU to DMU conversion.

 

[PVD]

SEPTA has a few projects using battery storage at substations to capture regenerative braking energy. Doesn't extend reach to non electrified segments,but also doesn't require the trains to be anything out of the ordinary. (beyond being modern/regen braking capable)

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm no Scientist or Engineer, but I think jis and PVD know their stuff! ( PRR may want to weigh in since he actually worked in this area as a Professional Engineer.)

 

[jis]

SEPTA has a few projects using battery storage at substations to capture regenerative braking energy. Doesn't extend reach to non electrified segments,but also doesn't require the trains to be anything out of the ordinary. (beyond being modern/regen braking capable)

That is probably necessary partly because the 25Hz network does not always have enough power sinks available to eat up the regenerated energy, and the Commercial network to 25Hz network converters are not capable of reverse feeding.

PRR may be able to throw more light on the subject, having professionally worked on such stuff before retiring.