Equipment Order in the works this year (2018)?

[west point]

Substation energy storage might be better suited to mechanical storage. Imagine banks of very large fly wheels storing energy. They could store all regenerative energy and used as a smoothing factor for peak demand surges. We do know that mechanical power is somewhat stored in large turbine generators. You would loose that energy during long periods of low demand unless power from them were managed close to the low demand periods.

 

[jis]

There are some serious projects getting cranked up to hydraulically store vast amounts of surplus energy from Solar and Wind generators for use when there is no Sun or Wind. A new use of dams and lakes.

 

[PRR 60]

SEPTA has a few projects using battery storage at substations to capture regenerative braking energy. Doesn't extend reach to non electrified segments,but also doesn't require the trains to be anything out of the ordinary. (beyond being modern/regen braking capable)

That is probably necessary partly because the 25Hz network does not always have enough power sinks available to eat up the regenerated energy, and the Commercial network to 25Hz network converters are not capable of reverse feeding.

PRR may be able to throw more light on the subject, having professionally worked on such stuff before retiring.

Appreciate the endorsement, but I'm a structural engineer. Working in high voltage transmission for 38 years, I was always a good listener and picked up a lot of basic electrical theory, but when things got past "basic" (system protection settings, load flows, planning contingencies, etc. etc etc), I happily deferred to the really smart people down the corridor.

 

[PRR 60]

There are some serious projects getting cranked up to hydraulically store vast amounts of surplus energy from Solar and Wind generators for use when there is no Sun or Wind. A new use of dams and lakes.

Modern day version of pump storage generation. Pump water out of a lower elevation source up to a higher elevation lake at night when there is lots of cheap base load power, then reverse the process in the daytime and generate power when demand is high.

 

[PVD]

Actually, the SEPTA projects are on Broad St and Market-Frankford lines DC third rail.

 

[jis]

Actually, the SEPTA projects are on Broad St and Market-Frankford lines DC third rail.

Ah. OK, same reason then. There is no way to feed the surplus power back to the source past the Commercial supply to DC converters. So in order to keep the regenerative brakes working the supply network needs to be receptive to the generated power, and the only way to ensure that is to provide a storage system to suckk it up.

 

[PVD]

To add an additional wrinkle, they added inverters and have a deal with the local utility to allow them to tapped stored energy for frequency regulation/stability in a deal that brings in some money for SEPTA. If you google SEPTA Battery Storage, there are a bunch of good articles, it might be getting a little deep for this thread.

NY has 2 very large pump storage plants, Lewiston (next to Niagara) at over 240 MW, and Blenheim-Gilboa at 1165 MW.

 

[jis]

What really gets interesting is when e.g. the Dutch start using tidal sea levl differences to generate power and then store them away in a hydraulic storage for use later

 

[PVD]

In NYC we have the East River , and it is actually tidal (connecting to LI Sound and NY Harbor/Atlantic) so off Roosevelt Island, in the West Channel, they sank a turbine meant to work in both directions of flow to study tidal flow generation. The first time they got it all wrong, currents were much more powerful than the design could handle, and it "tore away" from the bottom. The second try has been more successful. (RITE Project) Roosevelt Island Tidal Energy....original demo. later commercial siting...

 

[jrud]

FWIW. The consensus in Europe is pretty solidly that batteries will be the energy source on train lines without electrification. Any fossil fuels including natural gas are out due to CO2 greenhouse gas emissions. Hydrogen is way to expensive to burn. Fuel cells using hydrogen are a lot more efficient than combustion but still no where near batteries. Only in transportation modes with very strict weight constraints (aircraft) is hydrogen perhaps viable.

The main reason for my original comment is the shift in the economics of electrifying routes if you can use batteries to eliminate the highest expense sections. Does that suddenly bring a lot more possibilities for rail electrification into play in the USA. And if so where?

Any ideas? As an example, are there bridges and tunnels beyond DC that seriously increase the cost of electrification to Richmond?

 

[jis]

In USA there will be no main line electrification (except for 125+ mph HSR) until the attitude towards fossil fuel changes. Until then it will be purely an immediate cost consideration and electrification will always lose in that discussion.

As far as obstructions go, there are actually very few, if any, on the RF&P blocking electrification with 22' high catenary to clear Plate H and Plate K AFAIK. Probably the tightest will be the Capitol Hill and those do not require 22'. Capitol hill could do with 17' or so to clear 16' Superliners and they could be 12kV. Perhaps ceiling rails will suffice, though they might have to cut notches in the tunnel roof to clear the full width of Pantos.

As for who will get CSX to agree to this grand plan is a different matter.

 

[jrud]

In USA there will be no main line electrification (except for 125+ mph HSR) until the attitude towards fossil fuel changes. Until then it will be purely an immediate cost consideration and electrification will always lose in that discussion.

As far as obstructions go, there are actually very few, if any, on the RF&P blocking electrification with 22' high catenary to clear Plate H and Plate K AFAIK. Probably the tightest will be the Capitol Hill and those do not require 22'. Capitol hill could do with 17' or so to clear 16' Superliners and they could be 12kV. Perhaps ceiling rails will suffice, though they might have to cut notches in the tunnel roof to clear the full width of Pantos.

As for who will get CSX to agree to this grand plan is a different matter.

Commuter rail like Caltrain? On government controlled track?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm no Scientist or Engineer, but I think jis and PVD know their stuff! ( PRR may want to weigh in since he actually worked in this area as a Professional Engineer.)

There are a number of knowledgeable contributors here on the forum who either know something inherently, can uncover the answer with a bit of research, or can theorize a plausible answer as necessary. It's quite a diverse crowd with often complementary knowledge. The trick is to realize when someone is inside or outside their area of expertise. For instance, if you were to ask me a simple question about SAS or Superliners I can most likely provide a legitimate answer. But if you were to ask me about operational aspects of the NEC, or the range and usage rate of a narrow-body trijet, chances are good I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[railiner]

In NYC we have the East River , and it is actually tidal (connecting to LI Sound and NY Harbor/Atlantic) so off Roosevelt Island, in the West Channel, they sank a turbine meant to work in both directions of flow to study tidal flow generation. The first time they got it all wrong, currents were much more powerful than the design could handle, and it "tore away" from the bottom. The second try has been more successful. (RITE Project) Roosevelt Island Tidal Energy....original demo. later commercial siting...

Sounds like a brilliant source of 'renewable energy'....but this is New York, and even that idea was met with resistance from advocates claiming it harmed some fish or other...

 

[PVD]

That's why they did the demo project. There were some concerns, the studies conducted did not find the results to be that bad.

https://www.verdantpower.com/rite

https://tethys.pnnl.gov/annex-iv-sites/roosevelt-island-tidal-energy-rite-project-demonstration

Rather than me "muddying the waters" anyone interested can read further.

 

[west point]

CAT clearances WASH - Richmond ?

We know of none except is the superstructure of Long bridge high enough. Old drawings showed it not even high enough to clear double stacks but that obviously has changed to clear present double stacks.

The entrance to the first street tunnel should be far enough from CSX that the change in CAT height can be manaaged by the loco pan ?

 

[jis]

Commuter rail like Caltrain? On government controlled track?

I sometimes wonder if the Caltrain electrification would have gotten funded without the infusion from the California HSR funds.

But yes, I agree that some commuter electrification will happen. E.g. Denver.

When Metrolink in Socal starts electrifying then we will know that the tide has turned perhaps.

WAS - RVR electrification, if it happens, is decades away at best.

CAT clearances WASH - Richmond ?

We know of none except is the superstructure of Long bridge high enough. Old drawings showed it not even high enough to clear double stacks but that obviously has changed to clear present double stacks.

All that you need is enough clearance to stick in a ceiling rail. Besides, I doubt that there will still be the current Long Bridge structure in place by the time electrification comes around.

The entrance to the first street tunnel should be far enough from CSX that the change in CAT height can be manaaged by the loco pan ?

That should not be any problem. Also there most likely be a voltage and system change at that point from 12kV 25Hz to 25kV 60Hz. I am certain no one will be crazy enough to add to the old 25Hz system

 

[jrud]

Commuter rail like Caltrain? On government controlled track?

I sometimes wonder if the Caltrain electrification would have gotten funded without the infusion from the California HSR funds.
But yes, I agree that some commuter electrification will happen. E.g. Denver.

When Metrolink in Socal starts electrifying then we will know that the tide has turned perhaps.

WAS - RVR electrification, if it happens, is decades away at best.

CAT clearances WASH - Richmond ?

We know of none except is the superstructure of Long bridge high enough. Old drawings showed it not even high enough to clear double stacks but that obviously has changed to clear present double stacks.

All that you need is enough clearance to stick in a ceiling rail. Besides, I doubt that there will still be the current Long Bridge structure in place by the time electrification comes around.

The entrance to the first street tunnel should be far enough from CSX that the change in CAT height can be manaaged by the loco pan ?

That should not be any problem. Also there most likely be a voltage and system change at that point from 12kV 25Hz to 25kV 60Hz. I am certain no one will be crazy enough to add to the old 25Hz system

As a side note. I go past the Long bridge twice a day on Metro Rail. There was a crane barge next to it that put in a couple piling. After a couple weeks it left. It certainly looked like it was doing some preliminary work related to the new Long Bridge.

 

[west point]

Suspect pilings just regular maintenance. Pilings do go bad and have to be replaced.

 

[PVD]

Any year now:

http://longbridgeproject.com/

 

[jrud]

Suspect pilings just regular maintenance. Pilings do go bad and have to be replaced.

Barge was noticeably downstream of the current bridge. And didn’t seem associated with any work on the bridge. So it was unusual.

It does seem like a combination of DMU, EMU, BMU & TMU (you can’t make all these acronyms up) from someone like Stadler represents the most likely competitor to Siemens. All single level cars would not seem optimum for every route. Sleeper cars based on European bilevel cars do exist. Platform length restrictions also favor bilevel cars and the European designs fit fairly tight loading gauge.

 

[west point]

Does Amtrak have to order and put down payment by SEptemer 30 ( end of FY ) for any LD equipment order ? Otherwise would it loose the funds allocated for FY 2018 ?

 

[jis]

No they won’t lose the funds unless Congress explicitly rescinds them. They are all under the “available until expended” terms.

 

[Trogdor]

Any year now:

http://longbridgeproject.com/

Off topic, but I love how the first photo that shows up on that page has the P42 with the Hearland Flyer "Big Game Train" decals on it.

 

[frequentflyer]

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20Exec%20Brd%20minutes%20%20-8-14-18%20DRAFT.doc

[SIZE=8pt]8.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Amtrak Equipment Procurements Update – Charlie King, Amtrak:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Charlie King provided a high-level overview of the RFP that is on the streets for power and cited some of the differences between the PRIIA specification and that of Amtrak. Amtrak began with the PRIIA spec as its baseline and added some items based on its needs.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Some of those differences/changes include: Amtrak speed is 110mph vs PRIIA “up to” 125mph; 1000 KW HEP system vs PRIIA’s 600 KW Amtrak is calling for a 2,200-gallon fuel tank – to PRIIA’s call for 1,800 to 2,200 gallons; and the maximum length for Amtrak is 85 feet vs 72 feet called for in the PRIIA spec. There are other items such as those pertaining to advanced analytics and safety options especially in areas where there will be no PTC, and other safety measures will be required. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Charlie also noted that the questions and comments on the RFP have slowed down with about 4 or 5 manufacturers likely formulating their proposals for next month. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]As for the RFI for cars, Charlie reported that 8 builders have come to Amtrak for interviews. Three states have been represented on those calls (IDOT, NYSDOT and Caltrans) as part of the team listening in. They provide questions to Amtrak to take to the builders. Data gathering will likely continue until October with an RFP thereafter.[/SIZE]