Favorite Amtrak Diesel of all time

[P40Power]

Whats everyone's favorite Amtrak Diesel Locomotive?

 

[Viewliner]

I said GE Genesis Series as its the modern locomotive, and the only kind I've ever had/seen on a train. The F40's do come in second for me, they seem worthy of notation with so many years of service. Also they still run on New Jersey Transit (and other commuter railroads) so they're still present in my rail life. P-32-8's are in third, as they're really the only other Amtrak Diesel I've seen that ever ran in revenue.

 

[EmpireBuilderFan]

I had to go with the EMD cab units. Although I've never seen one in person, I think the old EMD E and F series are some of the nicest looking diesel engines ever produced. Sadly, there aren't too many of them left in running order anymore.

Just in case there is someone who doesn't know what an old EMD E and F series engine looked like, here's a link to to a picture of an old F-7: Amtrak #101. Unfortunately, it also shows Amtrak's not-quite-so-nice Phase I paint. Maybe someone here will like it, but I think it ruins the looks of the engine. Just IMHO, of course.

 

[battalion51]

P-32-8 by far for two reasons. Fist of all these are the best engines Amtrak has loading wise, as they load up pretty well for road power. Secondly when the units are MU'd you can still walk through them to be able to get to the rest of the train. My only complaint is that the cab isn't very well set up for three people, It also lacks display for EOT's.

 

[P40Power]

I dont know, I mean Im quite split on the locomotive issue. I love the Genesis locomotives, I think they are neat units. Never been up in the cab of one of these beasts, well in reality I havent but on my Train Simulator game I have Genesis units with very real cab set ups on them. But Im also a big fan of the F40PH, theres something about the F40PH that just says Amtrak all over it and it just looks like a beast of a locomotive. Mind you this is my view as a railfan and not an engineer or anyone else who works on or runs these units. Who knows, from their prespective these units could be total junk. Battalion51 you seem to have experience in the head end operating area judging from your last post. That makes the topic all the more intresting when you have some one who actually runs the units making their comments heard

 

[battalion51]

Genesis units are the slowest, biggest, hunks of junk Amtrak has ever bought. The units take forever and a day to load up, the air pressure is not true to what's actually in the pipe, and the fake air is annoying as hell. The cab signals are poorly placed, and the unit is impossible to switch as there is no porch for the Conductor. These units will never see switching service, while some F-40's will. While they are great astheically, the guy who designed them must love tunel vision, because that's they type of view that you have.

 

[P40Power]

Ive actually heard that the P40 Genesis units are better then the P42s in the respects of the Air Pressure gauge and the loading times, but Its just what I heard. On our trip last october behind 2 P40s pulling our 11 car amfleet train the accelleration seemed to be very quick.

 

[Amfleet]

I voted for the GE Genesis Units. The Phase V paint scheme suits them the best in my opinion. However, from an engineers point of view, its sounds like these units are hell to operate.

 

[AlanB]

Genesis units are the slowest, biggest, hunks of junk Amtrak has ever bought.

Well they may load slowly, but technically they aren't the slowest engines that Amtrak ever brought. In fact they are rated 10 mph faster than the P32-8's that you like. The P42's are rated for 110 MPH; the P32-8's are only rated for 100 MPH operation. However since top speed on most runs is 79 MPH, it really doesn't matter what the max speed of the engine is.

The units take forever and a day to load up, the air pressure is not true to what's actually in the pipe, and the fake air is annoying as hell.

I have to wonder if the engines were designed to load slowly as a way to prevent flat spots. The new subway cars that NYC is buying are designed just that way. To many motormen would just slam the controller to it’s max setting when leaving a station, instead of notching the controller up gradually. So they built governors into the cars that automatically load the engines slowly when the controller is moved from stop to parallel. This prevents spinning wheels when the engineer rams the throttle.

So it may well be something that’s being designed into today’s modern diesel engines for the same reasons. I can't speak to the fake air issue, which does sound like a design flaw.

and the unit is impossible to switch as there is no porch for the Conductor. These units will never see switching service, while some F-40's will.

There's a good reason that the P42's have no porch. They were never designed to be switchers; they were designed to be road units. A porch ruins aerodynamics. Bad aerodynamics means more wind resistance, which costs you fuel big time. So the units were designed to be sleek and aerodynamic to cut down on fuel consumption, thereby saving Amtrak money on fuel.

 

[tubaallen]

Well they may load slowly, but technically they aren't the slowest engines that Amtrak ever brought. In fact they are rated 10 mph faster than the P32-8's that you like. The P42's are rated for 110 MPH; the P32-8's are only rated for 100 MPH operation. However since top speed on most runs is 79 MPH, it really doesn't matter what the max speed of the engine is.

The only thing about this is that at least for the time being, the midwest high-speed corridors are going to use the Genesis for power. I hope they can easily hit the 110 mark.

 

[battalion51]

Well you may see two Genesis engines paired up with Horizon cars for that. While the engines can haul at 103 MPH, two will get you up to speed quicker and allow you to run at maximum authorized spped. While they could gear the engines up to 110 MPH, I doubt that would happen.

 

[AlanB]

While they could gear the engines up to 110 MPH, I doubt that would happen.

Ok, I'm confused. :huh: What do you mean that they could gear the engines up to 110 MPH?

The P42's were built at the factory to run 110 MPH.

I understand that having two engines will get you there faster, but assuming that you aren't pulling too many cars, even one should be able to reach 110 MPH.

 

[battalion51]

Alan, the P-40's and P-42's were are only geared for 103 MPH, that's why some call the the AMD-103. However, the P-32 AC-DM's are geared for 110, and have a higher tractive effort.

 

[P40Power]

AMD-103 = Amtrak Diesel 103 mph! The F40PHs were also geared for 103 I believe, and possibly a select group of F40PHs were geared for 110, but Im not 100% sure on that

 

[battalion51]

202 might have gotten it when it recieved the AC traction motors. It also wouldn't shock me if 410-415 got them, as they were manufactured to GO Transit specs, not Amtrak specs.

 

[AlanB]

Alan, the P-40's and P-42's were are only geared for 103 MPH, that's why some call the the AMD-103. However, the P-32 AC-DM's are geared for 110, and have a higher tractive effort.

Ok, I'll agree that the AMD-103's max speed is 103 MPH. The AMD-103 is what Amtrak calls a P40.

However the AMD-103 is not a P42. They may look similar, but they are two different engines. An AMD-103 only has 4000 HP; a P42 has 4,200 HP.

Additionally, I find myself confused by your use of the word geared. :huh: Today's modern engines don't use gears to vary the speed of the engine, you just run the electric motor faster or slower to vary speed.

Yes there is technically a gear between the electric motor and the axle, however it's not a shift-able gear like you would find in a car. It's a fixed gear that has nothing to do with controlling speed. It merely transfers the power from the engine to the axle.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt, however all the information that I have clearly indicates that a P42 is capable of 110 MPH.

 

[tubaallen]

Alan, the P-40's and P-42's were are only geared for 103 MPH, that's why some call the the AMD-103. However, the P-32 AC-DM's are geared for 110, and have a higher tractive effort.

Ok, I'll agree that the AMD-103's max speed is 103 MPH. The AMD-103 is what Amtrak calls a P40.

However the AMD-103 is not a P42. They may look similar, but they are two different engines. An AMD-103 only has 4000 HP; a P42 has 4,200 HP.

Additionally, I find myself confused by your use of the word geared. :huh: Today's modern engines don't use gears to vary the speed of the engine, you just run the electric motor faster or slower to vary speed.

Yes there is technically a gear between the electric motor and the axle, however it's not a shift-able gear like you would find in a car. It's a fixed gear that has nothing to do with controlling speed. It merely transfers the power from the engine to the axle.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt, however all the information that I have clearly indicates that a P42 is capable of 110 MPH.

Alan...you do know correctly. In a test run in October, they got the train up to 109 mph I believe, just north of here...between Normal and Lexington. All it was was a Genesis #51 an amfleet dinette, a horizon coach, another amfleet dinette, and Genesis #52.

 

[EmpireBuilderFan]

Yes there is technically a gear between the electric motor and the axle, however it's not a shift-able gear like you would find in a car.  It's a fixed gear that has nothing to do with controlling speed.  It merely transfers the power from the engine to the axle.

From what I've been told, the gear on the electric motor can be changed out to increase or decrease the power going to the axle, but it has to be changed out by pulling out the electric motors. The example that I was given was like the rear end on a car. People who like to race their cars on the quarter-mile tend to replace the rear end gearing to a higher ratio, like replacing a stock 3.35:1 ratio to a 4.10:1 (just random numbers). This change in ratio gives more power off the line, but lower top speed.

Locomotives can do the same thing. Larger ratio between the axle gears and electric motor gears will cause the engine to pull out of a station and get up to track speed quicker, but will limit the top speed of the engine. A smaller ratio between the two gears will cause a the engine to get up to track speed slower, but will give the engine a higher top speed.

Just in case someone reading this doesn't know what the gearing ratio is, that's the difference between the size of the two gears. For example: using a 3.35:1 ratio, if an engine's electric motor gears are 1 inch, the gear on the axle is 3.35 inches (or would that be feet?).

This post probably just confused everyone more, so if that's the case, let me know and I'll try to clear it up.

 

[AlanB]

This post probably just confused everyone more, so if that's the case, let me know and I'll try to clear it up.

EB,

No, you didn't confuse me at all. In fact I think that it's a rather good explanation. However, I was fully aware of the aspect ratio and how it can affect speeds, even before you posted your explanation.

However I wasn't sure that was what B51 was referring to. Especially since he was confusing the two engine specs. Additionally while I suppose that it is possible, I can't imagine why anyone would bother building two different gears with an aspect ratio that's so close to one another that you would only vary the top speed by 7 MPH.

I also find it odd the GE would build two very similar locomotives with that subtle a difference in aspect ratio. Plus while Amtrak has done odd things in the past (like they did with Acela), I find it odd that they would accept two different sized gears. You want to diminish the number of parts floating around, not increase them by needing two different gears so close to one another.

I have to believe that the 7 MPH difference is the extra 2,000 HP that a P42 has over and AMD-103.

 

[battalion51]

Aight Alan, I've spoken with several Engineers, Conductors, and Mechanical people. All of them say that both the P-40 and the P-42 are geared for 103 MPH. The extra 250 horsepower the P-42 has has nothing to do with the traction motors. The diesel is simply creating the electrictiy for the traction motors to use. While there may be more power for the P-42's to use, the traction motors still max out at 103 MPH.

 

[AlanB]

Aight Alan, I've spoken with several Engineers, Conductors, and Mechanical people. All of them say that both the P-40 and the P-42 are geared for 103 MPH. The extra 250 horsepower the P-42 has has nothing to do with the traction motors. The diesel is simply creating the electrictiy for the traction motors to use. While there may be more power for the P-42's to use, the traction motors still max out at 103 MPH.

Ok, I don't know what to say about what they've told you.

However according to the spec sheet from GE (the builder), it specifically states that the AMD-103's (AKA P40) max out at 103 MPH. While the spec sheet for the P42 shows that its max is 110 MPH.

Amtrak AMD-103

Amtrak P42

If this weren't true, then as Tubaallen pointed out, the speed test in Illinois last year would not have been able to maintain a steady 109 MPH over the length of the test run.

 

[battalion51]

Well you got me and everyone of my guys then.

 

[AlanB]

It took me a while to find this one, as I couldn't remember when they actually did the test run at first.

An Amtrak “extra” train roared through a sliver of southern Illinois last Friday at 109.6 mph. It was part of a first-of-its-kind test of satellite technology crucial to the introduction of high-speed passenger operations in Illinois, according to the Chicago Sun-Times.

You can read the full story from NCI's Destination: Freedom Newsletter, which can be found here.

 

[AlanB]

Last chance to vote in this poll. While it's not quite two weeks, I'm unpinning this poll due to the large number of polls currently running.

 

[P40Power]

Ive got a question about the Genesis locomotives, are the horns controlled by a foot pedal? I recall reading something in an arcticle about the newly extended transcontinental Sunset Limited in Trains Magazine where the Engineers commented about the Genesis P40s and it said that the foot controlled horn allowed both engineer's hands to be free for the other controls.