Fire impacts Coast Starlight (6/29/21)

[Willbridge]

The train is bookable on the south end (LAX-SAC), but not the north end.

That's why my squawk and the recollections of the Oakridge slide are posted above. They tried to discontinue the route north of Sacramento before, a la the Sunset east of NOL. It took political pressure to restore the service with a KFS<>EUG bus bridge if I recall correctly.

 

[zephyr17]

That isn't my recollection. Amtrak restored service pretty quickly after UP physically restored the line. I do not recall any question that service would be resumed once a seriously devastated piece of railroad was reconstructed.

 

[railiner]

Makes me wonder what the UP would do today, if there ever was a repeat of the Thistle, Utah slide, that closed the then D&RGW for a few months in 1983. I doubt they would go to the length's to reopen it that they did back then. The CZ would probably be permanently rerouted thru Wyoming. Maybe, Amtrak or the state would run a Denver-Grand Junction local or tourist train....

 

[Keith1951]

I've been checking google news for anything about the dry canyon/hotlum trestle/bridge, and not much pops up. I hope that's a good sign. I saw the picture from the side posted in #53 above, hard to believe there could be so much damage to one section without affecting the strength of the remaining bridge.

I guess a more detailed report will come along eventually.

I just googled it and got many results.

 

[Danib62]

Here is the latest official word from Amtrak:

Amtrak Coast Starlight Trains Canceled

Between Seattle and Sacramento until mid-July

Amtrak Cascades Trains Provide Substitute Transportation Seattle-Eugene



Trains 11 & 14 are unable to operate between Seattle and Sacramento due to a temporary track closure by the Union Pacific Railroad. Until on or about July 14, these Amtrak Coast Starlight trains will operate only between Los Angeles and Sacramento.

Customers booked between Seattle and Eugene are welcomed aboard Amtrak Cascades trains. No other substitute transportation is available. Refunds are being provided.

 

[zephyr17]

Makes me wonder what the UP would do today, if there ever was a repeat of the Thistle, Utah slide, that closed the then D&RGW for a few months in 1983. I doubt they would go to the length's to reopen it that they did back then. The CZ would probably be permanently rerouted thru Wyoming. Maybe, Amtrak or the state would run a Denver-Grand Junction local or tourist train....

Have to agree there. In 1983 the line was D&RGW's one and only mainline. They had to restore it to have a railroad, and they also had heavy coal traffic from on line sources.

Today the line is effectively redundant for UP. One thing that get little notice here is there is almost no traffic west of Grand Junction. Amtrak and a BNSF trackage rights freight is all. It is so lightly trafficked PTC isn't required for passenger service. It has quietly become another Raton.

If anything major happened, especially something on the scale of the Thistle slide which required construction of some miles of brand new railroad, there is no question in my mind that UP would embargo or abandon the line.

I think it is in some danger even just sitting there fully intact and operational because it is hosting no UP traffic at all. The only reason I can think of that UP has not already at least embargoed it is they don't to want give BNSF the opportunity to grab it.

 

[Cal]

Here is the latest official word from Amtrak:

Good. Won't effect my travel (other than the bus bridge)

 

[George Harris]

Someone once told me that jet fuel can’t melt steel and you expect me to believe some burning trees did /sarcasm

It doesn't have to actually melt it, but it can get it hot enough to lose its strength. Years ago I saw a set of steel frame supported wood bleacher stadium and roof after it had burned at many of the steel beams looked like they had become wet spaghetti. To go to the horse's mouth for some information, from the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) web site,
"The strength of steel remains essentially unchanged until about 600°F. The steel retains about 50% of its strength at 1100°F. The steel loses all of its capacity when it melts at about 2700°F. However, for design purposes, it is usually assumed that all capacity is lost at about 2200°F."
. . . .
A general rule of thumb reads: “If it is still straight after exposure to fire – the steel is OK”. Straightening techniques are also available for steel members that have been misaligned after fire exposure."

From Fire Engineering: "At approximately 1,100 °F, steel will start to fail. At this temperature, the steel begins to expand and twist."

Another site says, "The lack of deformation in a loaded condition is a visual clue that the steel was not heated to a temperature sufficient to result in the formation of martensite during the fire, and as a result, the steel's mechanical properties were probably not altered by the fire."
. . . .
And yes, forest fires can get hot enough to reach temperatures that can result in deformation of the steel, in other words above 1100F. Yes, there are inconsistencies in answers between sources. The twisted deck beams shown in the picture are really possible. The still straight column might or might not still be safe, but I would not trust them without cutting out samples for testing.

 

[Asher]

Those photos Cal and D Flyer posted show exactly how hot that fire was to buckle the rails and completely burn away the ties in that one area. Sort of looks like all the movement on top is what caused all the distortion down below the rails.

 

[MARC Rider]

Have to agree there. In 1983 the line was D&RGW's one and only mainline. They had to restore it to have a railroad, and they also had heavy coal traffic from on line sources.

Today the line is effectively redundant for UP. One thing that get little notice here is there is almost no traffic west of Grand Junction. Amtrak and a BNSF trackage rights freight is all. It is so lightly trafficked PTC isn't required for passenger service. It has quietly become another Raton.

If anything major happened, especially something on the scale of the Thistle slide which required construction of some miles of brand new railroad, there is no question in my mind that UP would embargo or abandon the line.

I think it is in some danger even just sitting there fully intact and operational because it is hosting no UP traffic at all. The only reason I can think of that UP has not already at least embargoed it is they don't to want give BNSF the opportunity to grab it.

Maybe it's time for state and local interests to make an offer to buy the line and have it run by a shortline who's interested in providing service to the region rather than a bunch of MBAs who want to manipulate the manipulate company's value on the stock exchange.

 

[zephyr17]

Since the "endangered" part of the line is mostly in Utah, it would have to come from Utah.

Note that I've not heard any rumblings about UP actually doing something. It is just that the traffic level is so low.

I do think BNSF would grab it if UP tried to embargo it.

 

[Willbridge]

That isn't my recollection. Amtrak restored service pretty quickly after UP physically restored the line. I do not recall any question that service would be resumed once a seriously devastated piece of railroad was reconstructed.

The issue was that during that project they started out by turning the train at Sacramento. They only went as far north as Klamath Falls and put on a bus bridge after protests. And my dad was at a meeting at which an Amtrak staffer claimed in a condescending manner that it wasn't possible to run a passenger train on the Inside Gateway from Klamath Falls to Portland. As he (and I) had ridden that line and as Amtrak had used that detour before, her answer stuck in his memory.

Given the protests that they got I'm sure that they understood the need to reopen as soon as the work was safely completed. The temporary Katrina shutdown showed what happens if people don't get on something right away.

 

[Triley]

I just tiptoed through the reservation system and it shows Train 11 cancelled through Bastille Day, July 14th, from Seattle to Portland. It's an appropriate date, as in recent years they've been eager to cancel huge portions of long-distance trains, then been attacked in local media and by the state and national RPA's and finally run part of the route with a bus bridge where possible.

I'm sure my congresswoman's staff in Denver will appreciate spending time getting Amtrak to run trains. First, they'll have to be briefed that there are multiple choices of solutions that are all better than what they have set up. Eugene's congressman is working on delivering a billion dollars to Amtrak; he'll have to mention to Gardner that a train can be turned in Eugene or Klamath Falls.

Part of the issue with doing a bus bridge is the fact that SEA is so short staffed, we can barely crew the Builder, even with giving the coach jobs to CHI crew base for the time being. (Getting new hires in SEA is hard these days...) So unless they fly LAX crews to/from SEA to work the train, there won't be anyone to work it.

I do agree a bus bridge is the best solution, or convincing WDOT/ODOT to run an additional Cascades train to at least Eugene in its place, but ultimately...I don't know what will happen. Will be interesting to see.

 

[Triley]

Here is the latest official word from Amtrak:

Just to clarify the alert, passengers are welcome aboard the two existing Cascades trains servicing SEA/EUG. No replacement train is being offered.

 

[Cal]

Part of the issue with doing a bus bridge is the fact that SEA is so short staffed, we can barely crew the Builder, even with giving the coach jobs to CHI crew base for the time being. (Getting new hires in SEA is hard these days...) So unless they fly LAX crews to/from SEA to work the train, there won't be anyone to work it.

I used to think that the EB was crewed in Chicago, and honestly I think that might be easier. Having one central crew base instead of many (as I've said before on here).

 

[zephyr17]

Especially given the situation with the Starlight, WashDOT and ODOT should start working to resume the full Cascades schedule south of Seattle as soon as possible.

 

[Cal]

Especially given the situation with the Starlight, WashDOT and ODOT should start working to resume the full Cascades schedule south of Seattle as soon as possible.

Do they have enough sets since selling the Talgo 6's?

 

[zephyr17]

I used to think that the EB was crewed in Chicago, and honestly I think that might be easier. Having one central crew base instead of many (as I've said before on here).

Please God, not Chicago. While individuals vary, my experience with Chicago based crews is they often, shall we say, lack a customer service orientation. There is something about the culture of the Chicago base that seems to just be off.

 

[zephyr17]

Do they have enough sets since selling the Talgo 6's?

Not sure. That's part of why I said start working towards. They might have to work with Amtrak to get more Horizons. In any case, I hope they are working towards restoring full service as soon as it is physically possible.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Part of the issue with doing a bus bridge is the fact that SEA is so short staffed, we can barely crew the Builder, even with giving the coach jobs to CHI crew base for the time being. (Getting new hires in SEA is hard these days...) So unless they fly LAX crews to/from SEA to work the train, there won't be anyone to work it.

I do agree a bus bridge is the best solution, or convincing WDOT/ODOT to run an additional Cascades train to at least Eugene in its place, but ultimately...I don't know what will happen. Will be interesting to see.

Every time I've ridden the Portland Section( #28) of the Builder, the Sleeper was Crewed by a Chicago based SCA, not sure about the Coaches?

AFAIK, the Rest of the Crew was Seattle Based on the #8 Section!

Are there plenty of other good jobs in Seattle so that no-one wants the Amtrak OBS jobs???( With 6 Long Distance Trains to/from LAX I think that Crew Base should have enough OBS and T&E Employees to man those Trains)

 

[Cal]

AFAIK, the Rest of the Crew was Seattle Based on the #8 Section!

I have no idea about my SCA last October on #28, all I know is that he was friendly.

Are there plenty of other good jobs in Seattle so that no-one wants the Amtrak OBS jobs???( With 6 Long Distance Trains to/from LAX I think that Crew Base should have enough OBS and T&E Employees to man those Trains)

6 LD trains to/from LAX?

 

[railiner]

I think it is in some danger even just sitting there fully intact and operational because it is hosting no UP traffic at all. The only reason I can think of that UP has not already at least embargoed it is they don't to want give BNSF the opportunity to grab it.

If I understand the agreement that granted BNSF those trackage rights, as a condition to allow the UP to buy the SP-D&RGW, if the D&RGW line wasn't maintained, then the UP would have to let the BNSF run their trackage rights trains over the Overland Route mainline, which I'm sure the UP definitely wouldn't want. I believe the BNSF would be thrilled if that ever happened, much more so than being given the chance to buy the former Rio Grande line, and have to maintain it...

 

[zephyr17]

Every time I've ridden the Portland Section( #28) of the Builder, the Sleeper was Crewed by a Chicago based SCA, not sure about the Coaches?

AFAIK, the Rest of the Crew was Seattle Based on the #8 Section!

Are there plenty of other good jobs in Seattle so that no-one wants the Amtrak OBS jobs???( With 6 Long Distance Trains to/from LAX I think that Crew Base should have enough OBS and T&E Employees to man those Trains)

Yeah, the whole Portland section is staffed out of the Chicago crew base, and the Seattle section is staffed out of the Seattle crew base (Portland has no OBS crew base).

So the dining car LSA is from Seattle and the lounge car LSA is from Chicago.

The Starlight's OBS crews are based out the LA crewbase, not Seattle.

 

[zephyr17]

If I understand the agreement that granted BNSF those trackage rights, as a condition to allow the UP to buy the SP-D&RGW, if the D&RGW line wasn't maintained, then the UP would have to let the BNSF run their trackage rights trains over the Overland Route mainline, which I'm sure the UP definitely wouldn't want. I believe the BNSF would be thrilled if that ever happened, much more so than being given the chance to buy the former Rio Grande line, and have to maintain it...

I didn't know the details other than them having trackage rights over the former D&RGW. But, boy howdy, I agree that BNSF would be thrilled to get on the Overland Route. If UP really wanted out from under the former D&RGW, I think they'd basically have to give it to BNSF gratis (and maybe throw in a few years of maintenance) for BNSF to even consider releasing their rights to run the Overland Route.

 

[Triley]

Yeah, the whole Portland section is staffed out of the Chicago crew base, and the Seattle section is staffed out of the Seattle crew base (Portland has no OBS crew base).

So the dining car LSA is from Seattle and the lounge car LSA is from Chicago.

The Starlight's OBS crews are based out the LA crewbase, not Seattle.

Sort of...

Every time I've ridden the Portland Section( #28) of the Builder, the Sleeper was Crewed by a Chicago based SCA, not sure about the Coaches?

AFAIK, the Rest of the Crew was Seattle Based on the #8 Section!

Are there plenty of other good jobs in Seattle so that no-one wants the Amtrak OBS jobs???( With 6 Long Distance Trains to/from LAX I think that Crew Base should have enough OBS and T&E Employees to man those Trains)

Because of being so short staffed right now in Seattle, we gave up the coach car on 27/28 to be crewed by Chicago as well. The sleepers, coaches, and lounge on 27/28 are still crewed by Chicago. The sleepers and diner on 7/8 are still crewed by Seattle, but that coach is crewed by Chicago. Freed up 11 regularly scheduled jobs, and we're still struggling.

With the minimum wage being so high in Washington, and specifically the Seattle area, it's harder to financially convince people to be away for so long. We get paid well, but when you factor in all the unpaid time that we have onboard + at the hotel, our wage drops really close to minimum wage. In fact, I would say that train attendants and food specialists make below minimum wage, if you average in the unpaid hours they're away from home. LSAs and Chefs are a few dollars over.

It's also not a wage thing, but...drugs. Working on the rails, for obvious reasons we have to pass a drug to test to be hired (and are subject to random tests throughout our employment). In Washington, this unfortunately narrows down the prospective applicant pool considerably.