Flagler's Line Across Florida

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VentureForth

VentureForth

Engineer
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
6,441
Location
West Melbourne, FL
Is the old Flagler line from Jacksonville to where the Silver Services meets back with it in West Palm Beach suitable for high speed (ok - 79 MPH) passenger service? Why hasn't this been considered as an 'express' train to Miami? Sure it would bypass the tourist traps of Orlando, but it would cut nearly 3 hours off the DC - Miami run...
 
Although its been six years since I've lived in South Florida I do vividly remember my time there. And if im not mistaken, the FEC tracks and CSX tracks (the ones that Amtrak and Tri-Rail run on) do not intersect until just south of the Tri Rail-Metrorail transfer station. And if my memory is correct there is no way to switch from one line to the other, the tracks just cross over each other. I have ridden on those tracks quite a few times, between weekend rides on Tri-Rail with my pop and long distance trips on Amtrak to see my family up north, and i can't remember any type of connecting track between the two rail lines.
 
Glad to hear the old FEC might make a comeback.

But remember this: the old FEC made a lot of stops-- even the finest and fastest trains made multi-stops. This at so many places with small year round populations but big beach business. Even the winter season Florida Special, from NYC to MIA made these stops even when it was non-stop between Richmond and Jax.

I am trying to say the time differential might not be as quite as much as expected.

Here are some of the stops: St.Augustine, Daytona, New Smyrna, Titusville, Cocoa Rockledge, Melbourne,Vero Beach, Fort Pierce, Stuart, Hobe Sound, W Palm Beach, Lake Worth, Delray Beach, Boca Raton, Pompano Beach, Ft Lauderdale, Hollywood, N. Miami.
 
Even if it turns out that the Jacksonville to Miami time makes it non-ideal as a route between those two cities, there's still lots of value in having service available at all of those stops.
 
The oldest table info I have is 1968 when FEC was only running one train a day each way. Here is the map and table. Note it wasn't supposed to leave JAX until other connecting trains had arrived.

FEC.jpg
 
According to the 1956 Official Guide the East Coast Champion made the 366 mile trip in 7 1/2 hours on the FEC. At the same time the Seaboard's Silver Meteor made it's 406 mile journey in just 7hours. Of course it did not go through Orlando.
 
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I note that the FEC has cab signals. These would fill the requirements for speeds in excess of 80 mph. It remains to be seen if the tracks and signals would fit the requirements for either FRA class 5 or FRA Class 6 tracks, though. I suspect that, with all of the municipalities that the FEC passes through, and the numerous highway crossings, outfitting the FEC for FRA Class 6 standards might be cost prohibitive.
 
blueman271 said:
Although its been six years since I've lived in South Florida I do vividly remember my time there. And if im not mistaken, the FEC tracks and CSX tracks (the ones that Amtrak and Tri-Rail run on) do not intersect until just south of the Tri Rail-Metrorail transfer station. And if my memory is correct there is no way to switch from one line to the other, the tracks just cross over each other. I have ridden on those tracks quite a few times, between weekend rides on Tri-Rail with my pop and long distance trips on Amtrak to see my family up north, and i can't remember any type of connecting track between the two rail lines.
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You're right - there'd have to be a tie in somewhere between Magnolia Park and West Palm Beach station to join the two. There looks to be only one place in an industrial yard that borders a cemetery that it looks like it could be conceivable.

Anyone know what class rail the FEC is?
 
JohnF said:
According to the 1956 Official Guide the East Coast Champion made the 366 mile trip in 7 1/2 hours on the FEC. At the same time the Seaboard's Silver Meteor made it's 406 mile journey in just 7hours. Of course it did not go through Orlando.
Click to expand...
The current Silver Meteor makes the jaunt through Orlando in 9 1/2 hours. The above FEC schedule is 6 hours and 40 minutes. Take away all the flag stops, add a few minutes for the cross over to the CSX main and it could still shave a solid 3 hours off the current schedule.

Again, being selfish like I am, I'd like to see it go on up through Savannah and then across to Macon and Atlanta. :)
 
VentureForth said:
JohnF said:
According to the 1956 Official Guide the East Coast Champion made the 366 mile trip in 7 1/2 hours on the FEC. At the same time the Seaboard's Silver Meteor made it's 406 mile journey in just 7hours. Of course it did not go through Orlando.
Click to expand...
The current Silver Meteor makes the jaunt through Orlando in 9 1/2 hours. The above FEC schedule is 6 hours and 40 minutes. Take away all the flag stops, add a few minutes for the cross over to the CSX main and it could still shave a solid 3 hours off the current schedule.

Again, being selfish like I am, I'd like to see it go on up through Savannah and then across to Macon and Atlanta. :)
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That might not be such a bad idea. I know from first-hand experience that Georgia has a lot of Florida traffic. I don't know about others, but if a passenger train went down to Florida from Atlanta, we'd definately take the train. I'm going to be writing a letter to a representative, or someone soon about creating an Amtrak route through Georgia and I might mention Atlanta-Miami instead of just Savannah or Jacksonville like I planned.
 
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I would also insist that it be a couple of frequencies per day each way. Not the typical Amtrak "once-per-day" operation.
 
When the Florida East Coast had the fast schedules of the East Coast Champion, Florida Special and other well known trains, it was double track all the way from Jacksonville to Miami. When the FEC went non union in the late 1960s, they also did away with the double tracking. Since there were no more passenger trains, the railroad was modified for freight service with the idea that passenger trains would never return. In many places the right of way still has enough room for double tracking, but in some areas commercial development is too close to the right of way. Again to offer passenger train service with speeds competitive with driving, a lot of funds will be needed to modify the infrasctuctire
 
VentureForth said:
blueman271 said:
Although its been six years since I've lived in South Florida I do vividly remember my time there. And if im not mistaken, the FEC tracks and CSX tracks (the ones that Amtrak and Tri-Rail run on) do not intersect until just south of the Tri Rail-Metrorail transfer station. And if my memory is correct there is no way to switch from one line to the other, the tracks just cross over each other. I have ridden on those tracks quite a few times, between weekend rides on Tri-Rail with my pop and long distance trips on Amtrak to see my family up north, and i can't remember any type of connecting track between the two rail lines.
Click to expand...
You're right - there'd have to be a tie in somewhere between Magnolia Park and West Palm Beach station to join the two. There looks to be only one place in an industrial yard that borders a cemetery that it looks like it could be conceivable.

Anyone know what class rail the FEC is?
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Some years ago on this forum somebody said it was first class, possibly one of the folks who live in Florida who used to be regulars,like Miami Joe or Battallion.
 
I am reasonably sure that the FEC runs their freights at 50 to 60 mph. That would mean FRA class 4, which would permit 79 mph passenger trains. Train density, I have no idea. Some additional sidings, maybe. Major hindrance would be lack of stations/platforms, etc.

Recall that Henry Flagler made the railroad a first class operation and did not really care whehter it was a profitable venture or not. His main thrust was the development of southeast Florida. Therefore in those pre-airline pre-interstate highway, initially even pre long distance paved roads, he wanted the future land buyers and snowbirds to have a fast and pleasant trip. It was a large scale version of the land gimmicks that will pay you money to come see their development. It was only sometime in the last 20 years or so that the FEC ever paid a dividend at all.
 
An interesting article from 2001:

ST. AUGUSTINE, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 3, 2001
Amtrak today announced that it will double its passenger rail service in Florida, add a new coastline route from Jacksonville to West Palm Beach and Miami, and serve eight new communities under an agreement with FEC Railway (FEC).

According to the agreement, Amtrak will add two daily round-trip services on FEC's track between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach with new stops in eight communities: St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Titusville, Cocoa/Port Canaveral, Melbourne, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce and Stuart, and continuing on to Miami.
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VentureForth said:
An interesting article from 2001:
ST. AUGUSTINE, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 3, 2001
Amtrak today announced that it will double its passenger rail service in Florida, add a new coastline route from Jacksonville to West Palm Beach and Miami, and serve eight new communities under an agreement with FEC Railway (FEC).

According to the agreement, Amtrak will add two daily round-trip services on FEC's track between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach with new stops in eight communities: St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Titusville, Cocoa/Port Canaveral, Melbourne, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce and Stuart, and continuing on to Miami.
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I notice they do not plan to make all the stops they used to make --making your idea of a faster schedule even more doable,i.e.without so many stops as I had initially noted.
 
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The route sounds like a great idea! I'd take it.

Would the train lose service to any cities that the other one (Meteor or Star) doesn't service? Meaning if the Meteor went to the FEC would there be any towns that the Star doesn't hit that would lose train service?

I say do that, and make a Gulf Breeze do like New Orleans -> Jacksonville, then either extend that or make some other shorter train (why not just continue that one?) to Savannah and Atlanta. It's an absolute joke that if you want to go from Alabama or northern GA to Florida, you need to go up north first. Hopefully that gets fixed someday. The Nancy Hanks sure didn't have many passengers, so it needs to go somewhere besides just Atlanta to Savannah. Nashville to Jacksonville? Sounds difficult.
 
Crescent Mark said:
Would the train lose service to any cities that the other one (Meteor or Star) doesn't service? Meaning if the Meteor went to the FEC would there be any towns that the Star doesn't hit that would lose train service?
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As long as it would be the Meteor switched to the FEC and not the Star, then no. In Florida, 91/92 serves all the same stations as 98/97, plus Okeechobee, Lakeland, and Tampa.

But switching the Meteor to FEC tracks would be a terrible idea for a couple reasons. For one, people travelling between Orlando and S Florida (like me) would only have the option of taking the Silver Star. That means that instead of a 4 hour jog straight up to Orlando, we'd have to endure at least SIX hours because of the Tampa detour.

On top of that, as explained earlier, there really isn't any feasible way to transfer from FEC tracks to Amtrak's Miami station in Hialeah. That means no servicing for the Meteor except at Sunnyside. Big mistake.
 
While there are no guarantees just what Amtrak might do, the plan way back when was to split/combine the trains at JAX. Half would run down the FEC and half would continue down the current route. Therefore no cities would loose service, while other's would gain service.

What Amtrak may or may not do in the future is of course unknown.
 
Shotgun7 said:
On top of that, as explained earlier, there really isn't any feasible way to transfer from FEC tracks to Amtrak's Miami station in Hialeah. That means no servicing for the Meteor except at Sunnyside. Big mistake.
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Any train running down the FEC would travel across a newly built switch and track section at West Palm Beach to connect from the FEC to the current Tri-Rail route used by Amtrak to reach Hialeah.
 
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