Future Amtrak Sleeper and ADA ideas

[basketmaker]

Does anyone remember the Budd "Sleepercoach", with very small single rooms in kind of a staggered, interlocked design. There also a few double rooms in the car. They came out in the 1950s and were sold as a premium form of coach; a first class ticket was not required. About a half dozen railroads used them. Illinois Railway Museum has an example.

I think you're referring to the "Slumbercoach". Husband and I had single rooms on the LSL back and forth from CUS to BOS. A bit cramped for one but doable. The car went on to NYP so we had to ride coach from ALB into BOS. We took a regional from BOS to NYC and walk to NYP in a snow storm so we would have a room all the way back to CUS. Also good thing we did since a blizzard rolled into Boston right after we left. Maureen Stapleton was in one of the bedrooms in the same car. She was very nice and friendly but she wasn't a great traveler. She started the next morning off in the Lounge car downing a few Boilermakers. Other than being 5 hours late since the BOS-ALB leg hit a car stuck at a crossing in the blizzard sadly killing 3 of 4 teens. Overall the trip was normal.

 

[railiner]

By AmDay there were very few American trains offering open sections, mostly only on trains having cars in which sections were combined with other accommodation types, like CP(VIA)'s Manor and Chateau sleepers. The only train I know for sure offered up them right up to 4/30/71 was UP's Salt Lake City-Butte "Butte Special".

The UP cars assigned to that service were real gems...they even had a tiny "dining room" and a grill.

 

[railiner]

I think you're referring to the "Slumbercoach".

The New York Central, referred to their Slumbercoaches as "Sleeper Coaches".

 

[cocojacoby]

Would Amtrak view lie-flat seats as too much competition with the cash cow of their sleeper offerings?

No. It opens up a whole new revenue stream. My wife is going RT from Florida to Boston later next month. She has a choice of Amtrak coach for about $300 or roomette for $1400! Something in between is definitely necessary. Most people will not pay that fare. Those mini-suites would be ideal. BTW - Frontier Airlines was offering RT specials starting at $85!

 

[Bob Dylan]

No. It opens up a whole new revenue stream. My wife is going RT from Florida to Boston later next month. She has a choice of Amtrak coach for about $300 or roomette for $1400! Something in between is definitely necessary. Most people will not pay that fare. Those mini-suites would be ideal. BTW - Frontier Airlines was offering RT specials starting at $85!

Such a difficult choice! NOT!!!

 

[Mailliw]

Russia does, but I don't see Amtrak embracing platzcart.

Russian Railways Unveils New 'Platzkart' Redesign

A mock-up of the next generation of Russia's cheap sleeper-carriages was opened to the public in Sochi on February 13.

www.rferl.org

 

[TransitTyrant]

Russia does, but I don't see Amtrak embracing platzcart.

Russian Railways Unveils New 'Platzkart' Redesign

A mock-up of the next generation of Russia's cheap sleeper-carriages was opened to the public in Sochi on February 13.

www.rferl.org

Those might be a tough sell for sleeper passengers here. I think you’d need to tap a totally different market in fact, an overnight train less than 1000 miles. I think a budget night train of all roomettes, basically a modern slumbercoach. That’s a market that’s been missing since the last were.

 

[Mailliw]

Platzcart is the equivalent of long-distance Coach, not a sleeping car. Back on topic, has Amtrak released any diagrams or information on seating capacity yet?

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Wouldn't it make sense to implement a JetBlue Mint like product instead of sleeper racks or bunks? You could angle them to be more up/down so that they would fit in a 10.5ft wide car and they offer similar privacy and have lie flat seats. Sure its a downgrade over a private room but this could help boost the number of available seats by a good amount on a given train.

Maybe I dont fully understand the demands of sleeper riders but I would think that you could fit a ton of those pods in a given train in a modern looking trainset and it would be a fantastic product for Amtrak to promote. I think we should be looking very closely at airlines for guidance on seating style (ie airline's domestic first class product should be our guide for coach seating on Amtrak trains. International first class should be our first/business class guide).

 

[cocojacoby]

I like the Delta One better for rail travel. We all like to look out of the window once in a while and the doors add additional privacy.

Update: I found that Mint has doors also. They do appear to take up more floor space though.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

I like the Delta One better for rail travel. We all like to look out of the window once in a while.

Sure, but really think we are in agreement that these pods are a great pre existing design and would likely be better for both passengers and Amtrak if implemented rather than bunks

 

[UserNameRequired]

I missed the Slumbercoach era.
What are differences between this pod/aircraft idea or the Russian sleeper carriage and a what a modernized slumbercoach could be?

 

[cocojacoby]

I would really like Amtrak to at least try this Delta One mini-suite idea between Boston and D.C. Just a couple of cars needed to offer sleeper service as the old Night Owl. With the high price of overnight accommodations in Boston, New York and Washington, there has to be a market for this alternative. Easy enough to add/subtract the car in D.C. with the engine change.

 

[mlanoue]

These Russian sleeper designs seem okay to me, but I can see why a lot of folks in North America wouldn't go for it--especially if you were always stuck up in the higher bunk.

It seems like all sleeper discussions on AU revert back to a "Bring Back Slumbercoaches" vs. "Import Airline-style Pods" discussion. Having never been in either, I can't contribute much. on those. I tend to think it boils down to whether we expect most people would sleep in their clothes or would they actually change into sleepwear in whatever idealized budget sleeper we are conceiving. The more private you get, the more likely they would be to change clothes for the night. (I know there will always be exceptions).

 

[Touchdowntom9]

These Russian sleeper designs seem okay to me, but I can see why a lot of folks in North America wouldn't go for it--especially if you were always stuck up in the higher bunk.

It seems like all sleeper discussions on AU revert back to a "Bring Back Slumbercoaches" vs. "Import Airline-style Pods" discussion. Having never been in either, I can't contribute much. on those. I tend to think it boils down to whether we expect most people would sleep in their clothes or would they actually change into sleepwear in whatever idealized budget sleeper we are conceiving. The more private you get, the more likely they would be to change clothes for the night. (I know there will always be exceptions).

Limited privacy, bottom row doesn't look all that comfortable. If those top bunks are not foldable then I think it wouldn't be appealing at all because of tight headroom. Especially at what Amtrak would like to charge for it. Would rather just have the pods on a duplex train car instead if you need that many seats.

 

[TheCrescent]

Wouldn't it make sense to implement a JetBlue Mint like product instead of sleeper racks or bunks? You could angle them to be more up/down so that they would fit in a 10.5ft wide car and they offer similar privacy and have lie flat seats. Sure its a downgrade over a private room but this could help boost the number of available seats by a good amount on a given train.

Maybe I dont fully understand the demands of sleeper riders but I would think that you could fit a ton of those pods in a given train in a modern looking trainset and it would be a fantastic product for Amtrak to promote. I think we should be looking very closely at airlines for guidance on seating style (ie airline's domestic first class product should be our guide for coach seating on Amtrak trains. International first class should be our first/business class guide).

View attachment 30779

That may work for some, but I want complete privacy and particularly no noise from people talking on their phones. I would buy only a totally private room with walls and a door.

 

[Mailliw]

I think Delta One could be a basis for a neo-Slumbercoach; especially fully enclosed or even just heavy curtains. It's not clear how they would be treated under the ADA though.

 

[cocojacoby]

That may work for some, but I want complete privacy and particularly no noise from people talking on their phones. I would buy only a totally private room with walls and a door.

Delta fought hard with the FAA to have doors on their unique Delta One Mini-Suites. Doors were not allowed up to this point. Amtrak could easily extend the walls and doors up to the ceiling and provide plenty of privacy in their version.

 

[b1xn00d]

I'd be over the moon if Amtrak embraced Platzkart. Roomettes are too expensive for me and I can't sleep (in any meaningful sense of the word) sitting upright, so I end up just flying for nearly all my travel despite loving trains.

Maybe I just care less about privacy than most, though - I frequent hostels and such too.

 

[jis]

Some quick back of the envelope calculations....

A Venture car, after taking out space for crumple zones, ADA restroom and ancillary closets and stuff has about 750inches of length available for passenger occupancy.

If each Pod takes around 70-72" as is true of the Delta Pods, you can have about 10 rows of those in 750" with a couple of feet to spare.

A typical Delta Pod is about 40" or so wide. So at most you can have a 1x1 layout in a cabin that is 120" wide if you wish to have an aisle.

Which means you can have 20 such seats and that is the absolute maximum capacity.

Compare this with a Viewliner Roomette like layout. Each Roomette has a footprint allowing 9x2 in the same space. It has a maximum capacity of 18x2 = 36. Admittedly some are sold as singles, but at somewhat elevated fare. But still it is not clear to me how this pod based car would have a lower fare than a Roomette based car.

It is also worth noting that any further space that is lost for ADA accommodation would be the same in either configuration losing equivalent amount of seating space, except that for each row lost Roomettes lose 4 berths whereas pods lose 2 seats. But still I do';t see how Pods will be cheaper fare than Roomettes.

Doing a Herringbone arrangement may allow addition of one or two more rows while keeping enough width for an aisle but that still does not quite get us there.

There is a reason that Slumbercoaches were built, which takes advantage of vertical staggering thus allowing more capacity and that is what allowed the lower fares in Slumbercoaches.

 

[Steve4031]

I have ridden in couchettes in Europe. It is not my thing to share rooms with others. Even on an overnight trip, it was onerous. On one memorable trip I was riding from Rome to Zurich on a couchette train in 1990. This was during the world cup which was in Italy. There was some sort of railroad strike which meant no trains were moving. The strike ended when the game Italy was playing in that day was over.

My train to Zurich left Roma Termini 3 hours late. It was hot and there was no AC. I was sharing the 4 person room with three other passengers. I was on the top bunk. There was an Italian man and wife who argued every five minutes. One of the arguments was on whether the window would be up or down. Fortunately, the man won that one. The ride to Milano was a shake, rattle, and roll experience on the diritessema and was loud as we rolled through tunnels. Somehow were on time when we got to the border in Switzerland. I ditched the arguing couple and sat in a comfortable swiss coach car for the rest of the ride to Zurich.
/

 

[cocojacoby]

Some quick back of the envelope calculations....

A Venture car, after taking out space for crumple zones, ADA restroom and ancillary closets and stuff has about 750inches of length available for passenger occupancy.

If each Pod takes around 70-72" as is true of the Delta Pods, you can have about 10 rows of those in 750" with a couple of feet to spare.

A typical Delta Pod is about 40" or so wide. So at most you can have a 1x1 layout in a cabin that is 120" wide if you wish to have an aisle.

Which means you can have 20 such seats and that is the absolute maximum capacity.

Compare this with a Viewliner Roomette like layout. Each Roomette has a footprint allowing 9x2 in the same space. It has a maximum capacity of 18x2 = 36. Admittedly some are sold as singles, but at somewhat elevated fare. But still it is not clear to me how this pod based car would have a lower fare than a Roomette based car.

It is also worth noting that any further space that is lost for ADA accommodation would be the same in either configuration losing equivalent amount of seating space, except that for each row lost Roomettes lose 4 berths whereas pods lose 2 seats. But still I do';t see how Pods will be cheaper fare than Roomettes.

Doing a Herringbone arrangement may allow addition of one or two more rows while keeping enough width for an aisle but that still does not quite get us there.

There is a reason that Slumbercoaches were built, which takes advantage of vertical staggering thus allowing more capacity and that is what allowed the lower fares in Slumbercoaches.

We already did this exercise somewhere. The 350 cabin is 18' 5" wide and has eight across Delta One Suites:

A350-1000 - Airbus Aircraft​

https://aircraft.airbus.com › a350-clean-sheet-clean-start

Dimensions ; Overall length, 73.79 m ; Cabin length, 58.03 m ; Fuselage width, 5.96 m ; Max cabin width, 5.61 m ; Wing span (geometric), 64.75 m.
Max cabin width: 18 ft 5 in
Cabin length: 190 ft 5 in
Fuselage width: 19 ft 7 in
Overall length: 242 ft 1 in

​

So it was pretty easy to just cut the airplane fuselage in half and figure out that a train could easily hold four sets and an aisle with 9' 3" needed to do so.

Note that the seat diagram is a bit misleading. The seats do nest together more and when laying flat they are side-by-side although staggered.

 

[jis]

Yeah, I need to take into account what the overlap between two adjacent pods is Roughly speaking it would be 72"- some amount, which I don't know and that will allow additional rows.

 

[cocojacoby]

Yeah, I need to take into account what the overlap between two adjacent pods is Roughly speaking it would be 72"- some amount, which I don't know and that will allow additional rows.

It is absurd to claim that you will put 4 across in 10'. You won't. In terms of fractions it will be 2+ something, maybe close to 3, but not much more, unless you want people in the seats on the wall side to not have any way to get out. And yes 3 would get 30. Which is still less than the capacity of a full Roomette car.

Study the Delta One Suites a bit and you will see that no passengers are trapped. All have aisle access.

 

[cocojacoby]

This is the car to do some back-of-the-envelop figuring on. Two levels and fits in NYP: