Genisis in San Deigo

[MrFSS]

AMTK 121 blew past me twice while at the beach today in San Clemente, one southbound and one northbound run.

Is that nice restaurant still out on the pier at San Clemente? Many years ago I was having a nice seafood dinner there and watched an Amtrak go by.

 

[dan72]

Aloha
Interesting comments. Also interesting, is no one said anything about the ride. since the two trips were so close together my reaction was that push was smother that pull. Or am I imagining the difference.

When my wife and I took the PS last July, the ride itself seemed to be the same, but the sensation of being pushed as different. Personally, I guess I like being pulled, but that a very minor thing...

Dan

 

[dan72]

David,

The P40's are in Storage. Also there are 2 F59PHI's in for overhaul plus 1 on the Starlight.

Actually that's not quite true. Yes, most P40's are in storage. However, 8 can be found in use by Metro North and/or Shore Line East at any given time, since they were leased by the State of Conneticut.

I'm curious about that. It seems odd to me that the DASH 32's are more active in LD trains than the P40's. Wouldn't it make more sense to use locomotives with an extra 800 hp? I'm maybe off base on this, but if anybody could shed some light on this, that would be great.

Dan

 

[Trogdor]

If the ride was the same, how could the "sensation" be different? In reality, from the inside of the train, how could you tell one way or the other?

In all of my times riding the Hiawatha, I've never noticed the difference in ride (except, perhaps, when you first start moving in push mode, and the slack between the cars gets compressed, causing a slight "thump" when the train departs. Other than that, there's no difference at all in ride quality (from a passenger's perspective).

Now, this may not necessarily be the case if you're in the first (or last) car of the train, but if it bothers you that much, then just sit in the middle.

 

[AlanB]

Actually I suspect how smooth the ride is has more to do with the skill and care of the engineer, along with the track conditions. There's a lot to be said for how smoothly and carefully are the brakes applied, do they just jam the throttle into the top notch or do they use skill and car to accelerate more gradually, and so on.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

And as I understand it there's a good bit of the use of "stretch" braking in normal pull service, where they apply the train brakes while still applying notch one on the engine, tending to keep the train stretched out in the couplers so there is no jerk as they go into compression on stopping and no jerk as they come into tension on departure, I would guess it works the same way on push, keeping the couplers in compression.

 

[dan72]

If the ride was the same, how could the "sensation" be different? In reality, from the inside of the train, how could you tell one way or the other?
In all of my times riding the Hiawatha, I've never noticed the difference in ride (except, perhaps, when you first start moving in push mode, and the slack between the cars gets compressed, causing a slight "thump" when the train departs. Other than that, there's no difference at all in ride quality (from a passenger's perspective).

Now, this may not necessarily be the case if you're in the first (or last) car of the train, but if it bothers you that much, then just sit in the middle.

From my own experience, the smoothness of the ride was the same. I personally felt being pushed on the way to LA and for me it felt different than being pulled down. May have been psychological (knowing that I was going ot be pushed), might have due to the fact the F59 was right in back of our car (we were in the business class car) and right in front of us on the way back down to SAN. We were also sitting in the middle both times right by the center four-person table.

Dan

 

[AMTRAK-P42]

AMTK 121 blew past me twice while at the beach today in San Clemente, one southbound and one northbound run.

Is that nice restaurant still out on the pier at San Clemente? Many years ago I was having a nice seafood dinner there and watched an Amtrak go by.

Yup, I usually dont go to that one but it is the best view. There are some cheaper sandwich shops right across the tracks. I usually grab a bite and watch the ocean/trains go by.

 

[someguy]

Almost no two grade crossing incidents are exactly the same. So to compare one accident to another really is not a good comparison.

That has nothing to do with the fact that trains in pull mode are much less likely to derail and cause injuries to passengers onboard. Trains in push mode are much more likely to see a number of cars derailed and serious injuries in these type of accidents are quite common.

 

[battalion51]

Almost no two grade crossing incidents are exactly the same. So to compare one accident to another really is not a good comparison.

That has nothing to do with the fact that trains in pull mode are much less likely to derail and cause injuries to passengers onboard. Trains in push mode are much more likely to see a number of cars derailed and serious injuries in these type of accidents are quite common.

Show me some numbers from the FRA and AAR to back up your claim then we'll talk.

I'm curious about that. It seems odd to me that the DASH 32's are more active in LD trains than the P40's. Wouldn't it make more sense to use locomotives with an extra 800 hp? I'm maybe off base on this, but if anybody could shed some light on this, that would be great

Dan, the reason why the DASH 8's are used is because of the physical layout of the engine. The DASH 8's can be used in yard and MOW service because the Conductors can ride the ladders on the front and back of the engine, making switching easier. With the DASH 8's rear ladder rideable this also assist with back up moves since the Conductor can just hang on to the ladder while he talks with the Engineer, whereas on a P-40 the Conductor has to get into the Air Compressor room and talk him back, which can be a challenge since the compressor isn't very quiet. Because of the DASH 8's HEP capability and speed capability it makes it a good standby motor too in places like JAX, PDX, SEA, where there really aren't major engine servicing facilities and power could be needed in case of break downs.

 

[dan72]

I'm curious about that. It seems odd to me that the DASH 32's are more active in LD trains than the P40's. Wouldn't it make more sense to use locomotives with an extra 800 hp? I'm maybe off base on this, but if anybody could shed some light on this, that would be great

Dan, the reason why the DASH 8's are used is because of the physical layout of the engine. The DASH 8's can be used in yard and MOW service because the Conductors can ride the ladders on the front and back of the engine, making switching easier. With the DASH 8's rear ladder rideable this also assist with back up moves since the Conductor can just hang on to the ladder while he talks with the Engineer, whereas on a P-40 the Conductor has to get into the Air Compressor room and talk him back, which can be a challenge since the compressor isn't very quiet. Because of the DASH 8's HEP capability and speed capability it makes it a good standby motor too in places like JAX, PDX, SEA, where there really aren't major engine servicing facilities and power could be needed in case of break downs.

Thanks for the insight and info! Is this by chance related to why the hostler's cab was done away with in the P42? Or, were there completely different reasons for that change?

Thanks again!

Dan

 

[George Harris]

That has nothing to do with the fact that trains in pull mode are much less likely to derail and cause injuries to passengers onboard. Trains in push mode are much more likely to see a number of cars derailed and serious injuries in these type of accidents are quite common.

Like battalin 51, I am waiting, and still waiting for some real data. Opinion does not count. Perception may be a reasonable substitute for reality in politics and salesmanship, but it goes no where in engineering.

The only accident that I can think of where it can honestly be said that it could have made a difference was in Placentia where the BNSF guy overran a red signal and head ended the commuter train. This sort of occurance is so rare as to be statistically insignificant. You are still in more danger driving to the station than if you spent all your trips standing in the front end of the front coach when operating in push mode.

George

 

[someguy]

A Jeep derailed several cars in push mode and killed 11 people.

Show me a train that was in pull mode in a similar situation and the results. The locomotive would have obliterated the Jeep.

 

[battalion51]

Congrats, you cited a derailment that was a freak occurance. The significant portion of the damage was not caused by the car striking the Jeep, but rather by hitting the adjacent UP train and the other Metrolink train on an opposing track. With the way the Jeep was wedged even an engine probably would've hit the ground and yielded similar results, if not worse from a possible fuel tank rupture. And by the way, you still didn't answer the question pal, I asked for Stats, not a "Perfect Storm" situation that was blown up by the media.

 

[GG-1]

I can confirm that P42DC 121 was pulling a Surfliner into San Diego last night. I'm staying at the Hampton Inn downtown and my window is about 10 feet from the tracks. Watched her sail right by (well, not sail - crawl!) -- I remember thinking the horn sounded a bit different than the usual F59PHI...are the horns different models?
(BTW, you should have seen the hotel clerk's face when I asked for a room facing the tracks!)

Aloha

Noticed your hotel, Thought I would choose it next visit to the Convention center. Think I will get the same hotel clerk

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

Interesting comments, statistics but I am still curious Do you think there is a difference for the rider. Both directions I was in the Cafe Car #2. Pulled into SD and pushed to Fullerton. Sat upstairs at the center table with family.

Good news the Grandaughter is a passenger railfan at 4.5

 

[someguy]

battalion51, are you seriously advocating that accident injury rates do not increase in commuter trains operated in a pushing scenario? ha ha.

this is not a matter of statistics, pal, it's a matter of physics.

 

[George Harris]

Sorry, someguy, you are still generating heat, not light on this issue.

I am not sure that an explanation will even dint you preconceived notion, but for the others, here it is:

The particular accident you mention, which occurred in January 2005, was in all ways a fluke, had a 60 ton coach hit a 3 ton or less pickup. There is nothing about this, considering you already have a mass ratio of 20 to 1 to indicate if it had been an engine of 120 tons or so it would not have also derailed. It appears that there is not as yet a NTSB accident report published on this accident. When we get that it should resolve most issues. It has been long enough that it should be out any time now. Suffice to say, these people are always ready to make recommendantions to improve safety, and they have made no public recommendation against push mode operation.

The following is FACTUAL information from various news reports. I emphasize factual because there were quite a few errors seen in these reports, including in one report even which train hit the SUV:

GLENDALE, Calif. – At least 10 people were killed and an estimated 200 injured at 6:11 a.m. today when southbound Metrolink commuter train No. 100, bound for L.A. Union Station (LAUS) to Burbank, derailed after hitting a Jeep Grand Cherokee intentionally parked on the tracks. The accident also involved northbound train No. 901 which was struck in the side by the first and second cars of train 901, derailing the second and third cars.

Final position of the cars, from post-accident pictures. Positions and angles are guesstimates.

Train 100 (southbound) ended up with:

the first car upright but rotated about 100 degrees clockwise from its original orientation, across all three tracks

the second car ended up leaning about 15 degrees and rotated about 30 degrees counterclockwise, fouling both main tracks

the third car ended up leaning about 5 degrees and approximately in line with but off the rails

the engine appears to still be on the rails but I have no picture that is clear enough to tell.

Train 901 ended up with:

the engine appears to be derailed, but upright and in line with the track.

the first coach is derailed, is upright and rotated about 5 degrees counterclockwise

the second coach is derailed, parallel to but about two feet of the track and leaning about 40 degrees. A large portion of the west side has been ripped off by the back end of the front coach, front end of the second coach of train 100.

the third coach is lying on its side parallel to the track but about 30 feet east of the northbound main close to a warehouse type building. It also has significant side damage from contact with the same cars of train 100 as the second coach.

Location of accident is about one mile north of Metrolink Glendale Station.

Train speed of the two trains was in the 50 to 60 mph range for both trains. Both trains consisted of three coaches and one diesel engine, with the diesel on the nominal north end on both trains.

Impact of train to SUV was about 500 feet south of the Chevy Chase Drive road crossing. UP diesel Locomotive was located some distance south of Verdant St.

Later reports questions the driver's actual suicide intent and speculated that causing an accident was his actual intent.

The track at the accident location consisted of two main tracks, with a third track on the west side on which was parked a ballast train headed by two diesels. the third track ended short of the Chevy Chase Drive road crossing, and a pair of crossovers between the two mains were in the section of track between the road crossing and the start of the third track.

***

The following is my distillation of the events of the accident based on news reports and pictures. No, I am not an expert, although I have been involved in a couple of accident analyses. I wrote the following shortly after the accident occurred.

1. The driver of the Jeep drove around the crossing gates at a grade crossing and proceeded to drive south on the nominally southbound track. If he was attempting to charge the northbound train, he was on the wrong track.

2. The Jeep's wheels became wedged between the rails at the first turnout in the track, the south turnout of the first of a pair of crossovers between the two main tracks so it could no longer be moved forward, backward, or to either side. No damage to the turnout was apparent in any pictures, so it is unlikely that the derailment took place at it.

3. At this point the perp bailed out of the Jeep, and stood to one side in the dark as the disaster unfolded. From the time he passed the lowered gates until the time he abandoned the Jeep may have been as little as thirty seconds... According to some news reports, it was after the collision that he slashed his wrists and stabbed himself in the chest.

4. The southbound train's cab car struck the Jeep (a 60+/- ton vehicle striking a 3+/- ton vehicle) at about 50mph (that stretch of track is cleared for 79mph) pushed it some distance down the track. possibly to the next turnout, and rode up over the wreckage, coming down with the lead wheels off the rails to the right. The greater resistance of the front end of the train plowing into the ballast caused the front coach to move further to the right until:

5. The lead car impacted the UP locomotive knocking it over on its side (a 60+/- ton vehicle impacting a 210+/- ton vehicle). This brought the forward motion of this coach to a virtual stop. At this point, if not before, the back end of this first coach began to rotate left (eastward), carrying the front of the second coach with it.

6. Northbound train reaches derailment site at this time. Leftward (eastward) movement of coach ends in southbound train as described above fouls the northbound train as its second coach is passing. Front end of second car of southbound train gouges into side of second car of northbound train, peeling away side over about half its length. Lateral pressure derails northbound coach to the right (also eastward) based on its direction of travel.

7. Back end of first car and front end of second car of southbound train continue to move to left (eastward) despite impact with northbound train due to the front of the first car being jammed into the UP locomotive, which it is in the process of turning over. Front end of third car of northbound train is impacted, breaking coupling between second and third cars. Front end of third car appears to have bounced sideways and then the car was impacted again about midway along its side. This impact finishes the job of pushing the car over onto its side. It appears to have slide on the ground on its side some 50 to 100 feet.

8. The second car of the northbound train continues northward with the train, but is being pulled along derailed to the right (eastward). It continues to rotate to the right and impacts the signal bridge support, bringing down the signal bridge on top of the car, but resulting in little additional damage to the car, regardless of some news reports to the contrary.

*****

I do not see a lot of tradeoffs in having the engines on the front here. If the engine had been on the front, it might have resulted in fewer injures and deaths on train 100, but it would almost certainly have still derailed, and the back end would have still rotated left into train 901. The greater mass and more rigid frame of the engine would have almost certainly increased the damage to train 901, so any lives saved in train 100 would have most likely been traded for additional lives lost in train 901.

therefore, I see no way that this accident can be used as an example to validate the OPINION that trains should not operate in push mode.

I am anxiously awaiting the NTSB accident report. I would be very curious to see if a computer simulation of the accident has been done with the trains set up as they were and with the engines on the front in both cases. Even then, I would consider it indicative, not definitive, as a truly valid computer simulation of a railroad accident is very difficult.

George

 

[GG-1]

(BTW, you should have seen the hotel clerk's face when I asked for a room facing the tracks!)

Aloha

I know I am reviving an old thread. Looks Like I may get to San Diego this June on someone else's money Think I may ask for the same room. Do you think I will get the same clerk

Mahalo