Harassed For Photography

[Sam Damon]

Railroaders call the NS the "**** Southern" and for good reason. Although they have won the Harriman Award for safety for the past 18 or so years they fire you if you get hurt~ go figure that one out! It's a tough place to work and I'm sure they have elevated a lot of employees blood pressures from what I have witnessed in their rules classes. (If you deliver a train in interchange to them in New Orleans you have to take their rules classes. The trainmaster was such a jerk he must have ace'd his ***** test.)

You have to wonder if firing people for getting hurt would discourage them from reporting minor accidents, and if a workforce that doesn't report minor accidents would result in safety statistics that suggest that fewer minor accidents happen.

I'm amazed that unions and or lawyers would let them get away with having that policy.

Interesting you folks should bring this up. Pardon the digression here.

Seems to me the NS crew that splattered chlorine gas over Graniteville(sp?), SC were company men to the end -- right up until NS threw them under the bus, even if they deserved it. I think in that incident, they thought the company would take them back if they protected NS as best they could.

Back to Amtrak...

I've said it before, I'll say it again. There are only two ways this crap is going to stop. The first way is to organize mobs of photographers to embarass Amtrak into getting rid of this nonsense. The other way is for any self-respecting railroad photography enthusiast to attend a NARP regional meeting, and (verbally) beat up any Amtrak executives on this issue.

I fear this sort of thing is getting out of control.

 

[ralfp]

Position Title Special Agent CT Surveillance

CAT scans? Those searches are disturbingly thorough.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there

If they really want to crack down on it, all they need is a YouTube admin...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

funny we get in trouble for taking pictures but what about video. that should be even worse right. sense it shows the train moving and stopping and more then one car LOL search google for train videos theres millions out there

If they really want to crack down on it, all they need is a YouTube admin...

my point is that they think its suspicious if you want to take pictures of trains if your not building one

 

[access bob]

Position Title Special Agent CT Surveillance

CAT scans? Those searches are disturbingly thorough.

CT, Counter Terrorism......

Bob

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.

Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?

 

[sky12065]

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.

Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?

In addition, I'll bet that it also didn't mention that AmBivalence is what may cause any future administrations to discontine "counter-terrorism" from decending upon Amtrak!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.

(Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.

Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?

In addition, I'll bet that it also didn't mention that AmBivalence is what may cause any future administrations to discontine "counter-terrorism" from decending upon Amtrak!

Revive the thread then! I can't find it...

EDIT: they've been added to 'All Things Am-'

This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.
(Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)

Sad truth is, if anybody wanted to perform an act of terrorism against Amtrak or the RR system in general, it would be easy as pie. It's as simple as getting on board at a small station (like my home of ALC) and carry-on a backpack's worth of C4 with ya. I promise you nobody would say a thing until the train got into either CHI or WAS and then *boom*.

Its silly to think we can prevent it. And all this showmanship with harassing officers is just dumb.

Totally, utterly, in every sense of the word: dumb.

 

[MattW]

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.

Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?

In addition, I'll bet that it also didn't mention that AmBivalence is what may cause any future administrations to discontine "counter-terrorism" from decending upon Amtrak!

Revive the thread then! I can't find it...

EDIT: they've been added to 'All Things Am-'

This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.
(Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)

Sad truth is, if anybody wanted to perform an act of terrorism against Amtrak or the RR system in general, it would be easy as pie. It's as simple as getting on board at a small station (like my home of ALC) and carry-on a backpack's worth of C4 with ya. I promise you nobody would say a thing until the train got into either CHI or WAS and then *boom*.

Its silly to think we can prevent it. And all this showmanship with harassing officers is just dumb.

Totally, utterly, in every sense of the word: dumb.

And the point of that will be? Even if someone packed all their 3 checked bags and all the carryon allowed with C4, the worst that would happen is it explodes between two packed commuter trains killing about 400 people at most counting the people in the station. (yes, I know I'm being harsh and cold here, but sometimes you have to do that to get a point across). Granted, get more terrorists and that's more checked bags and carryon, but the total damage wouldn't physically be that much. Is a terrorist seriously going to waste their time on a relatively well secured train running a chance he'll be caught, or would he pack a truck full of explosives like Oklahoma City? A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist which makes the rail system one of the safest forms of transport in the world. The political fallout would be massive however in this time of heightened crap.

 

[Chris J.]

A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist

Some terrorists in Spain thought it was.

 

[Acela150]

I got a reply from my friend at Amtrak and the e-mail is copied and pasted below:

yes we do, they are in the department of Security Strategy and Special Ops. I have no idea what there specific jobs are, but that department generally works with Homeland Security. I don’t think they perform “police” type function, because we have a separate police department that does that.

Their's the answer that guy shouldn't even have bothered you!

 

[printman2000]

A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist

Some terrorists in Spain thought it was.

If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.

 

[PRR 60]

A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist

Some terrorists in Spain thought it was.

If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.

The underground attack was in London. The Madrid attack was to commuter trains.

 

[printman2000]

A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist

Some terrorists in Spain thought it was.

If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.

The underground attack was in London. The Madrid attack was to commuter trains.

Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.

 

[PRR 60]

Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.

A total of ten bombs went off on four different trains. 191 died. I believe all the deaths were passengers on board the trains.

BBC Special Report

 

[ralfp]

If I remember correctly, that was in an underground metro system. Doing something underground on a metro system is much different than a long distance or even commuter train.

As PRR 60 stated, that was London, which actually points out that rail systems are vulnerable, just like so many other parts of our lives. One bomber was turned away from the Tube and hit a bus instead.

Trying to make any one part of our lives secure from terrorism is foolish; it's like sticking a finger into a dam to plug one of 1000 leaks. Stopping all the leaks, just like protecting all potential targets, is impossible. Sure, you can stop that one, but it does not matter. Outside of a few super vulnerable, strategically important, or symbolically important targets, trying to stop a terrorist from attacking is a lost cause. Now if we had a police state with a large secret police, an even larger network of informers... it still wouldn't stop the terrorists.

 

[printman2000]

Could it be that all the bombs went off while in crowded stations? I cannot remember, but it seems there were a lot of people around when they went off, not just the people on the trains. I could be wrong.

A total of ten bombs went off on four different trains. 191 died. I believe all the deaths were passengers on board the trains.

BBC Special Report

Okay, okay, stop reminding me my memory is flawed.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

when they ambush you when getting on the train its hard to tell if there real. he had over a hour to confront whoozeonfirst but waits till hes getting on the train.

Did that thread about all things Am mention AmBush as what happens when the Bush administration's ``counter-terrorism'' descends upon Amtrak?

In addition, I'll bet that it also didn't mention that AmBivalence is what may cause any future administrations to discontine "counter-terrorism" from decending upon Amtrak!

Revive the thread then! I can't find it...

EDIT: they've been added to 'All Things Am-'

This article about a bridge collapse mentions that the NTSB found a photograph taken a few hours before the collapse helpful. Just something to think about when weighing the risks of letting citizens photograph infrastructure.
(Note that we've had an accidental bridge collapse in the US in the last 10 years, but I don't think we've lost any bridges to terrorist attacks in that time.)

Sad truth is, if anybody wanted to perform an act of terrorism against Amtrak or the RR system in general, it would be easy as pie. It's as simple as getting on board at a small station (like my home of ALC) and carry-on a backpack's worth of C4 with ya. I promise you nobody would say a thing until the train got into either CHI or WAS and then *boom*.

Its silly to think we can prevent it. And all this showmanship with harassing officers is just dumb.

Totally, utterly, in every sense of the word: dumb.

And the point of that will be? Even if someone packed all their 3 checked bags and all the carryon allowed with C4, the worst that would happen is it explodes between two packed commuter trains killing about 400 people at most counting the people in the station. (yes, I know I'm being harsh and cold here, but sometimes you have to do that to get a point across). Granted, get more terrorists and that's more checked bags and carryon, but the total damage wouldn't physically be that much. Is a terrorist seriously going to waste their time on a relatively well secured train running a chance he'll be caught, or would he pack a truck full of explosives like Oklahoma City? A rail system is just not practical for a terrorist which makes the rail system one of the safest forms of transport in the world. The political fallout would be massive however in this time of heightened crap.

The point of terrorism is to strike terror. Bombing a train would freak a ton of people out. Bombing a town hall would do the same. You don't need to nuke NYC to get your point across.

A definite terrorist attack on Amtrak would put a lot of jobs on the line, make everybody mad, and probly punch another hole in the economy. When a bomb goes off, the market hiccups.

So yes there is a point? But is there a way to stop it? Nope.

 

[the Other Mike]

While I find this thread interesting, ( and in no way do I intend to offend ANYONE), I must wonder about people's observations. Maybe it's just me, an oddball who is just as concerned with people watching as railfanning.

Last year I had an "encounter" on the Sunset.

First, a little about me.

53, male, divorced, high school band director, President of our model railroad club for 16 years, Supt of Ops of the model railroad club for 20+ years. General sarcastic SOB that thinks I'm the ONLY authority that matters..........comes from being a band director for 30 years.

I get to UPT and as I get my ticket the announcement is made that they are boarding sleeping cars..............I walk right up through the gate and to my car and room.

as I'm eating lunch with a Calif. couple on their 4th week of a rail/cruise trip, the announcement is made that we are holding the siding waiting for our "sister" train...................That strikes me funny and as I sit and think to myself, I realize its NOT our sister train "so to speak" because our sister train is actually in Arizona or New Mexico at the time ( can't remember now ) and that the train we are waiting for is actually something like 16 hours late..........

Typical reaction of mine is to say out loud " thats Bulls###" thats not our sister train, that is yesterdays train.................to which many people in the diner look up in a questioning manner.

At the next "smoke stop", I went to the platform and lit a cigarette with the rest of the great unwashed from the sleeper and entered into idle chit chat. As I looked up the platform towards the front of the train, I saw him coming.

A VERY tall man dressed in a black suit with a conductors cap..............looking AT me. As he got closer I noticed the buldge under his arm as well as no name plate on the conductors cap. As he got to our group of nicotine mainliners, he started idle conversation but kept looking at me. I asked him point blank.........."so, are you Homeland Security or Amtrak or what?" ( by this time he realized as fat as I am and light complected I was not likely to be a terriost) He said " well, you've made a few people nerivous Mr. P####, how do you know so much about trains ?"

One of the many visitors to our club is the HS agent at UPT and has told us many stories so I just had to be a smartass and tell him he didn't need to worry about ( insert 3 different stories about HS arrests in the last six months at UPT). That REALLY got him going and eyeing me up and asking how I knew about those arrests...................I laughed and asked why my luggage was not inspected or put through any machines.................or was it because "so & so" knows me personally ?

Once he understood my friendship with the HS agent he said " you must be one of those guys from the model railroad club..............but how did I know he was security ? Not like he stuck out like a sore thumb with the pistol under his coat or the lack of a brass plate on his hat.........NOOOOOOOOO.

From then on the trip was great and I know I made a lasting impression on the guy as well as many of the crew who stopped to chat with me the remainder of the trip.

Maybe it's my age, maybe it's because I look like Santa Claus, maybe it's because of my years of teaching....who knows. My only suggestion is to not get upset but to be quiet and turn the tables on them.

When security comes up, ask to see their ID as you hand them yours. Question THEM, In a quiet manner gain control of who questions who. Smile ALOT in a sly way and make a game out of it. If you #### them off it's only going to make your life harder and then you will be upset and ruin your "train time". But if you handle it correctly, you will have them eating out of YOUR hand and making sure to give you the best service they can. Keep in mind that their "superiors" would not fight them or get into a debate with them like most people do. When you keep your calm and question THEM with a slight air of authority they will "usually" double check their attitudes just in case you ARe a superior of theirs checking their job performance.

But watch my luck, next time I'll get arrested for being a cocky SOB know it all.............

< stepping off the soapbox>

 

[GG-1]

First, a little about me.
53, male, divorced, high school band director, President of our model railroad club for 16 years, Supt of Ops of the model railroad club for 20+ years. General sarcastic SOB that thinks I'm the ONLY authority that matters..........comes from being a band director for 30 years.

Aloha

I am a stage hand, If you give us a hard time we will turn of the lights and sound :lol: So who is in control :lol:

But what you said about remaining calm and friendly ... very good advise.

Mahalo

Eric

 

[the Other Mike]

First, a little about me.
53, male, divorced, high school band director, President of our model railroad club for 16 years, Supt of Ops of the model railroad club for 20+ years. General sarcastic SOB that thinks I'm the ONLY authority that matters..........comes from being a band director for 30 years.

Aloha

I am a stage hand, If you give us a hard time we will turn of the lights and sound :lol: So who is in control :lol:

But what you said about remaining calm and friendly ... very good advise.

Mahalo

Eric

Ahhh, but as a high school band director for 30 years, I've also spent my fair share of time resetting both sound and lights how "I" want them as well as being asked by many groups to double check their crews since they usually have a big problem between sound "check' and a live house.

But please keep in mind, I'm not good at it because I'm smart, it's because I've done it long enough to screw up things every way possible so the end result is the ONLY correct way.

I'm the blind squirel who almost always finds a nut ............ :blush:

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I'm the blind squirel who almost always finds a nut ............ :blush:

Well indeed, you came to the right place then!!!! I am one of 'em!!! :lol: :blink: :lol:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

OBS gone freight...

 

[tp49]

If something seemed fishy to me in the situation the OP was in, I would have asked him the following questions:

1) Can you articulate to me your probabale cause for stopping me?

2) Am I being detained or am I free to go?

3) Would you please call/radio for a uniformed officer here on scene. (Especially helpful when stopped by a plainclothesed officer. Most real officers or agents will call for a uniform to show up.)

4) May I have your name, title, shield number and supervisor's name?

I wonder if Patrick's heard back from his email yet?