High speed train project in Florida?

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Floridaguy

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Any news about new high speed train project in Florida?

I've heard about plans to build a new high speed line between Tampa and Orlando

few years ago. Since that no news. Is the project frozen?
 
Any news about new high speed train project in Florida?I've heard about plans to build a new high speed line between Tampa and Orlando

few years ago. Since that no news. Is the project frozen?
The project is not only frozen, it is dead. Florida repealed the State amendment that required the train be built. I've heard no news on any serious effort to revive it either. Which is probably for the good anyhow, the project was a bit too ambitious. Florida needs to follow North Carolina's example, IMHO, make constant steady improvements to the existing tracks that will improve travel speeds and such.

While it might be nice to have a train that runs 200 MPH between Tampa and Orlando, one doesn't need that either to be sucessful. A train that runs at 90 - 100 MPH will do just as well, since it would be faster than flying or driving, and it would cost far less money to make the improvements needed for such speeds.
 
...of course, if they would just upgrade that piece of right-of-way to facilitate 200+mph, they could immediately (and relatively cheaply) start running diesel equipment up to 125, and then push for electrification and true high speed rail after everyone sees how valuable it is...
 
I would agree. Why to build new tracks if tracks already exist?

Why not to run Tampa-Orlando train on existing tracks?

I don't understand this.

What is the North Carolina example?

In my opinion America needs more short distance trains

like Tampa-Orlando or Orlando-Miami.

Long distance trains are not reliable, they are often late and run once a day.

3-4 times a day connections between closest cities (like in Europe) would be a great project.

Any news about new high speed train project in Florida?

I've heard about plans to build a new high speed line between Tampa and Orlando

few years ago. Since that no news. Is the project frozen?
The project is not only frozen, it is dead. Florida repealed the State amendment that required the train be built. I've heard no news on any serious effort to revive it either. Which is probably for the good anyhow, the project was a bit too ambitious. Florida needs to follow North Carolina's example, IMHO, make constant steady improvements to the existing tracks that will improve travel speeds and such.

While it might be nice to have a train that runs 200 MPH between Tampa and Orlando, one doesn't need that either to be sucessful. A train that runs at 90 - 100 MPH will do just as well, since it would be faster than flying or driving, and it would cost far less money to make the improvements needed for such speeds.
 
I would agree. Why to build new tracks if tracks already exist?Why not to run Tampa-Orlando train on existing tracks?

I don't understand this.

What is the North Carolina example?

In my opinion America needs more short distance trains

like Tampa-Orlando or Orlando-Miami.

Long distance trains are not reliable, they are often late and run once a day.

3-4 times a day connections between closest cities (like in Europe) would be a great project.

Any news about new high speed train project in Florida?

I've heard about plans to build a new high speed line between Tampa and Orlando

few years ago. Since that no news. Is the project frozen?
The project is not only frozen, it is dead. Florida repealed the State amendment that required the train be built. I've heard no news on any serious effort to revive it either. Which is probably for the good anyhow, the project was a bit too ambitious. Florida needs to follow North Carolina's example, IMHO, make constant steady improvements to the existing tracks that will improve travel speeds and such.

While it might be nice to have a train that runs 200 MPH between Tampa and Orlando, one doesn't need that either to be sucessful. A train that runs at 90 - 100 MPH will do just as well, since it would be faster than flying or driving, and it would cost far less money to make the improvements needed for such speeds.
actually, we have a fair number of those kinds of trains: Southern California, Pacific Northwest, Okla/Tex, Missouri, Chicago/Milwaukee/Michigan, etc.) though many are still limited because of having to use freight lines. It would be nice to have dedicated (and/or redundant) rights-of-way for passenger service, in which case there could be any number of regional trains supported by local, state, regional, or federal government funds, or any combination of the above. Also it would help if the FRA would take an honest look at train weight, so that lighter trains could run on various little-used freight lines (it's just damn silly to have to have a weighted empty F50 on one end of each Cascades train!!)
 
The state has bought the CSX A-Line between Sanford and Kissimmee and intends to start commuter service into / through Orlando. They appear to be intending to run the Colorado Rail Car DMU's, or at least that is what the pictures in their information show. Maybe this will also open the door for faster Amtrak trains, How far do you have left t go to Tampa?

The Cascades: They run under a waiver anyway. The F50 on each end has nothing to do with meeting any FRA "crashworthiness" requirements. These trains are a string of soda cans with a brick on each end.
 
I would agree. Why to build new tracks if tracks already exist?Why not to run Tampa-Orlando train on existing tracks?

I don't understand this.

What is the North Carolina example?

In my opinion America needs more short distance trains

like Tampa-Orlando or Orlando-Miami.

Long distance trains are not reliable, they are often late and run once a day.

3-4 times a day connections between closest cities (like in Europe) would be a great project.
Much of what you ask here can be answered by stating that there is no funding mechanism for rail similar to the funding mechanisms our nation has for highways and airports. If there was a Trust Fund for rail, the DOT (and our elected representatives) might be able to upgrade the lines in order have this level of train service.

Regarding long distance trains: Their lack of reliability stems from the same issue that affect short distance trains: The freight RRs have to pay for their own capacity improvements and maintenance, and when one route reaches capacity, all of the trains on that route will be delayed due to congestion. The long distance trains also function as feeders to the shorter distance corridors. They also serve transport markets that are different than the short distance trains.

Then there is the issue of traffic loads and stops. IN the case of the Empire Builder, the combined number of passenger volume at the smaller town stops is equal to the passenger volume of one larger city stop. If you avoid serving some of these smaller stops, the reduction in traffic would be eqivalent to ending service at one of the larger cities.
 
To get significantly higher speeds you would in effect have to completely rebuild all of the existing track, straighten out a lot of curves, AND put in a lot of overpasses, or some new kind of physical barriers on hundreds of grade crossings, new signalling and positive train controls on all the engines, etc., and even then you haven't addressed the worst hindrance to higher passenger train speeds - the glut of freight traffic on those same tracks, most of which is single main. The Trans-Florida High Speed Rail, as I understand it, would have mandated a complete new passenger-only, limited grade crossing, high-speed system.
 
Hey floridaguy,

I think it was back in 2005, we'all had the chance here in FL to vote on the high speed rail amendment AlanB mentioned.

It was a 'nice to have' project when originally introduced in 2000 but the economics of the day prevailed.

(Think the figure was 20Billion $$ for the system in 2000)

We can certainly do what we can to improve and motivate our elected officials to build on what we have.

Like the Jax/Orlando/TPA/Miami corridors and bringing the Sunset LTD back.

Making and insuring we have an LD and intrastate rail FUTURE in Florida should be the priority.

(soapbox put away)

Charlie Cacioppo
 
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Well I may have mispoken. The project might not yet be completely dead.

Former Gov. Jeb Bush's attempts to kill the high-speed rail project for Florida may have ended in failure.
Gov. Charlie Crist is expected to consider filling the vacancies on the Florida High Speed Rail Authority that Bush refused to appoint. Toot toot.
The above quote comes from a story that just surfaced at MassTransit Magazine. You can read the entire story at the above link.
 
Hey floridaguy,
I think it was back in 2005, we'all had the chance here in FL to vote on the high speed rail amendment AlanB mentioned.

It was a 'nice to have' project when originally introduced in 2000 but the economics of the day prevailed.

(Think the figure was 20Billion $$ for the system in 2000)

We can certainly do what we can to improve and motivate our elected officials to build on what we have.

Like the Jax/Orlando/TPA/Miami corridors and bringing the Sunset LTD back.

Making and insuring we have an LD and intrastate rail FUTURE in Florida should be the priority.

(soapbox put away)

Charlie Cacioppo
I don't think high speed is needed. Several trains per day between Tampa/Orlando/JAX/Miami would be great! It doesn't require billions $$$.
 
Well I may have mispoken. The project might not yet be completely dead.
Former Gov. Jeb Bush's attempts to kill the high-speed rail project for Florida may have ended in failure.
Gov. Charlie Crist is expected to consider filling the vacancies on the Florida High Speed Rail Authority that Bush refused to appoint. Toot toot.
The above quote comes from a story that just surfaced at MassTransit Magazine. You can read the entire story at the above link.
Thanks for the link AlanB for the new info on the 'hispeed rail saga' here in FL.

Regardless of the past political dealings on the issue, the voter's spoke and laid it to rest.

I think it will be VERY difficult to bring this project to reality.

Not being an expert, I will guess that the NEC or one of the West Coast markets might be better suited for true, hi-speed rail.(read= cost)

This kind of project will not be the single compelling reason for people to leave their cars at home.

CC
 
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If it was dependable and could do the run in a reasonable amount of time, it would probably be worth doing. But you would need to put in more double track. There is quite a bit of freight traffic on there right now.

I would expect some interest from Lakeland, Plant City, etc., to Tampa for commuters, and possibly even from JAX and ORL, and perhaps the other way as well. Right now, Amtrak in it's infinite wisdom, has made it literally impossible to commute from Lakeland to Tampa, even though you could theoretically have done it with 91/92. When they truncated 89/90, Palmetto, to WAS-SAV, there was no longer rail service to Lakeland and Tampa. They realized that was a major goof, since Tampa sees quite a lot of passenger traffic, and they had just cut them off from passenger rail service. So they added the current dog-leg on to 91/92, to service Tampa and Lakeland. When they started that service, it was originally scheduled so that 91 got to Tampa fairly early in the morning, and 92 picked up in very late afternoon, so that someone from the Orlando corridor, or someone at Lakeland, could have taken 91 into Tampa , worked all day there, and then commuted back on 92. That actually would have worked for anyone in the Orlando corridor that \wanted to do a day trip to Tampa. Even folks in Jacksonville, theoretically, could have made day trips to Tampa and gotten back the same day. They would have had to get rolling awfully early in the morning, but it would have been do-able. We even took that run once (fromWPK), and spent an enjoyable day in Tampa.

But Amtrak shot themselves in the foot two ways on this one. First, and this is still the case, you CANNOT travel between Lakeland and Tampa on 91 or 92. Amtrak won't allow it. You can't buy a ticket to go from Lakeland to Tampa, nor can you purchase a ticket to ride from Tampa to Lakeland. So a potential commuter from Lakeland to Tampa and back is prohibited from riding. That's plain stupid, IMO.

Second, they then changed the schedule again, so that there are only a couple of hours between the arrival of 91 and the arrival of 92, at Tampa. If 91 is running particularly late, you can't make the connection at all, and would have to do it at Lakeland.

I don't know if the passenger traffic exists, or could be developed, to make it feasible, but if 91/92's schedules could be rearranged to again provide a fairly reliable day trip and commute capability from the Jax-Orlando-Lakeland corridor over to Tampa and back, they could add a car onto the end of 91 at Jax, cut it at the station at Tampa, pick it up and add it at Tampa onto the end of 92, and drop it at Jax from 92. At Tampa, 91 and 92 both back into the station, so if they wanted to do this, it would be fairly easy to just drop that last car at Tampa and pick up the last car at Tampa. They'd have to do some switching at Jax, but they used to do that with the Express boxcars, and I think they still have an engine available at JAX to do switching with, and they have storage tracks at both locations. JAX is a crew change location for 91 and 92, so the arriving engineer ought to have plenty of "hours-of-service" time left when he/she arrives on 92 to do the switching, with the new engineer taking over 92 available to continue on north with 92. I don't know how close the southbound 91 engineer usually is to his hours limit, but one way or the other they ought to have the people available to do this. On 97/98, those trains go all the way from Miami to Jax with one crew, so there ought to be more than enough slack left time-wise for the Tamp-Jax and Jax-Tampa crews to do a little one-car switching if necessary. If the extra coach needed service, they could simply leave it on 91 instead of dropping it at TPA, and take it down to MIA for service, and put a different one on to that morning's 91, pick up the commuters and so forth at TPA, and drop it at JAX that evening.
 
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Rail in Florida needs to be made competitive with highway speeds maybe 120 mph maximums with double tracked right of ways that don't have freight interference. I travel on business throughout Florida. The current Amtrak trains are not an option because they are too slow and un reliable. If we had trains similar to European countries or the northeast corridor, I would use trains for business over flying or driving. Since Florida is relatievly flat, the cost of new rail lines is not as expensive as places with hilly or mountainous terraine. Florida does need better, faster rail service to accomodate the many tourists that visit. The State of Florida needs to follow the lead of California and other states in properly funding the expansion and improvement of rail passenger service.
 
If it was dependable and could do the run in a reasonable amount of time, it would probably be worth doing. But you would need to put in more double track. There is quite a bit of freight traffic on there right now. I would expect some interest from Lakeland, Plant City, etc., to Tampa for commuters, and possibly even from Orlando, and perhaps the other way as well. Right now, Amtrak in it's infinite wisdom, has made it literally impossible to commute from Lakeland to Tampa, even though you could theoretically have done it with 91/92. When they truncated 89/90, Palmetto, to WAS-SAV, there was no longer rail service to Lakeland and Tampa. They realized that was a major goof, since Tampa sees quite a lot of passenger traffic, and they had just cut them completely off. So they added the current dog-leg on to 91/92, to service Tampa and Lakeland. When they started that service, it was originally scheduled so that 91 got to Tampa fairly early in the morning, and 92 picked up in very late afternoon, so that someone from the Orlando corridor, of someone at Lakeland, could have taken 91 into Tampa , worked all day there, and then commuted back on 92. That actually would have worked for anyone in the Orlando corridor that \wanted to do a day trip to Tampa. Even folks in Jacksonville, theoretically, could have made day trips to Tampa and gotten back the same day. They would have had to get rolling awfully early in the morning, but it would have been do-able. We even took that run once (fromWPK), and spent an enjoyable day in Tampa. But Amtrak shot themselves in the foot two ways on this one. First, and this is still the case, you CANNOT travel between Lakeland and Tampa on 91 or 92. Amtrak won't allow it. You can't buy a ticket to go from Lakeland to Tampa, nor can you purchase a ticket to ride from Tampa to Lakeland. So a potential commuter from Lakeland to Tampa and back is prohibited from riding. That's plain stupid, IMO. Second, they then changed the schedule again, so that there are only a couple of hours between the arrival of 91 and the arrival of 92, at Tampa. If 91 is running particularly late, you can't make the connection at all, and would have to do it at Lakeland. I don't know if the passenger traffic exists, or could be developed, to make it feasible, but if 91/92's schedules could be rearranged again to provide a fairly reliable day trip and commute capability from the Jax-Orlando-Lakeland corridor over to Tampa and back, they could addi a car to the end of 91 at Jax, cut it at the station at Tampa, pick it up at Tampa on 92, and drop it at Jax from 92. At Tampa, 91 and 92 both back into the station, so if they wanted to do this, it would be fairly easy to just drop that last car at Tampa and pick up the last car at Tampa. They'd have to do some switching at Jax, but they used to do that with the Express boxcars, and I think they still have an engine available at Jax to do switching with, and they have storage tracks at both locations.
Well put. I would be one of those 'commuters' living near Tampa and working in Lakeland.

I would love to be able to take the train but this is not an option on Amtrak today.

Having come from NJ Transit terrority, near-on time performance is absolutely vital for commuter rail ops.

So I agree that more needs to be done with the current 'mess'.

(as a pt of reference: where I work in lakeland, fl.--about few hundred people commute the east-west corridor of I-4 from the Orlando/Tampa areas.)

Charlie
 
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Charlie, if the 91/92 schedule were massaged just a little, a lot of those Orlando area folks that work in Lakeland could use Amtrak to commute. There is a Florida Resident Annual Railpass, that is usually $249.00, but for two or three months a year is $199.00 on sale, that lets you ride Amtrak anywhere in Florida as often as you want for a year, that would allow them to commute daily at no additional cost beyond the Pass. Obviously you have the problem of OTP, where they would be late for work fairly frequently, depending on when they were supposed to be there, but still it would be an option, and they would know in advance, from checking on the train's current status, so they could decide to drive that day if necessary. I also take issue with Amtrak on the price of that Pass right now, because since Sunset Limited is no longer running to Florida, roughly a third of the rail system miles have been taken away from that Pass but they haven't reduced the price of it. In fact I think they are still advertising Sunset when they try to sell you the Pass, then they make some much smaller disclaimer about it. Anyway, your friends that commute from Orlando might want to look into that Pass.
 
Charlie, if the 91/92 schedule were massaged just a little, a lot of those Orlando area folks that work in Lakeland could use Amtrak to commute. There is a Florida Resident Annual Railpass, that is usually $249.00, but for two or three months a year is $199.00 on sale, that lets you ride Amtrak anywhere in Florida as often as you want for a year, that would allow them to commute daily at no additional cost beyond the Pass. Obviously you have the problem of OTP, where they would be late for work fairly frequently, depending on when they were supposed to be there, but still it would be an option, and they would know in advance, from checking on the train's current status, so they could decide to drive that day if necessary. I also take issue with Amtrak on the price of that Pass right now, because since Sunset Limited is no longer running to Florida, roughly a third of the rail system miles have been taken away from that Pass but they haven't reduced the price of it. In fact I think they are still advertising Sunset when they try to sell you the Pass, then they make some much smaller disclaimer about it. Anyway, your friends that commute from Orlando might want to look into that Pass.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how many Floridians take advantage of the pass?
 
I really don't. Wendy and I have gotten them three times. Didn't get it last year, probably won't as long as Sunset isn't running in FL. One of those years we used the passes to get to Pensacola, and then bought RT coach to NOL, made a nice inexpensive RT to NOL from WPK. For anybody that needed corridor travel between any of the JAX-ORL-TPA-MIA major cities, or for a company that needed to do courier service of small stuff or documents between those places, it would be a great deal, just designate a couple employees to get the pass and then they'd be all set. It's nice to be able to just flash the pass and your ID and get on the train, no reservations or ticketing needed.
 
If it was dependable and could do the run in a reasonable amount of time, it would probably be worth doing. But you would need to put in more double track. There is quite a bit of freight traffic on there right now.
I would expect some interest from Lakeland, Plant City, etc., to Tampa for commuters, and possibly even from JAX and ORL, and perhaps the other way as well. Right now, Amtrak in it's infinite wisdom, has made it literally impossible to commute from Lakeland to Tampa, even though you could theoretically have done it with 91/92. When they truncated 89/90, Palmetto, to WAS-SAV, there was no longer rail service to Lakeland and Tampa. They realized that was a major goof, since Tampa sees quite a lot of passenger traffic, and they had just cut them off from passenger rail service. So they added the current dog-leg on to 91/92, to service Tampa and Lakeland. When they started that service, it was originally scheduled so that 91 got to Tampa fairly early in the morning, and 92 picked up in very late afternoon, so that someone from the Orlando corridor, or someone at Lakeland, could have taken 91 into Tampa , worked all day there, and then commuted back on 92. That actually would have worked for anyone in the Orlando corridor that \wanted to do a day trip to Tampa. Even folks in Jacksonville, theoretically, could have made day trips to Tampa and gotten back the same day. They would have had to get rolling awfully early in the morning, but it would have been do-able. We even took that run once (fromWPK), and spent an enjoyable day in Tampa.

But Amtrak shot themselves in the foot two ways on this one. First, and this is still the case, you CANNOT travel between Lakeland and Tampa on 91 or 92. Amtrak won't allow it. You can't buy a ticket to go from Lakeland to Tampa, nor can you purchase a ticket to ride from Tampa to Lakeland. So a potential commuter from Lakeland to Tampa and back is prohibited from riding. That's plain stupid, IMO.

Second, they then changed the schedule again, so that there are only a couple of hours between the arrival of 91 and the arrival of 92, at Tampa. If 91 is running particularly late, you can't make the connection at all, and would have to do it at Lakeland.

I don't know if the passenger traffic exists, or could be developed, to make it feasible, but if 91/92's schedules could be rearranged to again provide a fairly reliable day trip and commute capability from the Jax-Orlando-Lakeland corridor over to Tampa and back, they could add a car onto the end of 91 at Jax, cut it at the station at Tampa, pick it up and add it at Tampa onto the end of 92, and drop it at Jax from 92. At Tampa, 91 and 92 both back into the station, so if they wanted to do this, it would be fairly easy to just drop that last car at Tampa and pick up the last car at Tampa. They'd have to do some switching at Jax, but they used to do that with the Express boxcars, and I think they still have an engine available at JAX to do switching with, and they have storage tracks at both locations. JAX is a crew change location for 91 and 92, so the arriving engineer ought to have plenty of "hours-of-service" time left when he/she arrives on 92 to do the switching, with the new engineer taking over 92 available to continue on north with 92. I don't know how close the southbound 91 engineer usually is to his hours limit, but one way or the other they ought to have the people available to do this. On 97/98, those trains go all the way from Miami to Jax with one crew, so there ought to be more than enough slack left time-wise for the Tamp-Jax and Jax-Tampa crews to do a little one-car switching if necessary. If the extra coach needed service, they could simply leave it on 91 instead of dropping it at TPA, and take it down to MIA for service, and put a different one on to that morning's 91, pick up the commuters and so forth at TPA, and drop it at JAX that evening.
Nice post.

Why don't we tell this to Amtrak management?

Does Amtrak have any place to send our feedback?
 
(jphjaxfl) Rail in Florida needs to be made competitive with highway speeds maybe 120 mph maximums with double tracked right of ways that don't have freight interference. I travel on business throughout Florida. The current Amtrak trains are not an option because they are too slow and un reliable.
In general I agree with that, but in the specific instance of ORL-TAMPA, I don't. I-4, especially during rush hour, is such an utter disaster for commuters that I don't think a train used for commuters would have to run at higher than current track speeds in order to be successful. I-4 frequently comes to a complete halt at rush hour in both directions. And with the continued growth in Florida, it's going to continue to get worse. There has been pretty much continuous construction on I-4 for as long as I can remember, and I've been here since 1971. They will never have enough traffic lanes to fix it, we're growing too fast. Just the wear-and-tear on the drivers' nerves is substantial, and I feel fairly confident that if 91 and 92's schedules could be massaged a bit so that it they would be a good 'fit' time-wise for commuters to work in Tampa from Orlando, Lakeland, Plant City areas, AND (this is a biggie) if 91 could be at least semi-dependable time-wise, it would probably work. 92 isn't usually too late since it's only coming up from MIA in the first place, but 91 starts at NYP, and it's OTP leaves something to be desired. One possible semi-fix for this would be to add dwell time at JAX to give it a chance to start the Florida portion of the route on-time, and maybe to do the same at SFD's former location, or WPK or ORL. In fact, if we look at this more globally, the Orlando area is now looking at a commuter rail system that would run from around Deland to Kissimmee. I would expect that as part of that, they will refurbish the old SFD depot, (which in the past year or so was falling apart so badly that it was condemned, and Amtrak doesn't even have a station stop there any more), sufficiently to at least use the platform for the commuter service. It might be that the Orlando Commuter Rail folks could do some joint brainstorming with Amtrak and come up with something that would knit that proposed system with an Amtrak-assisted commuter connection, possibly using 91/92, with Lakeland, Plant City, and Tampa. They might even consider adding the Tampa dog-leg to 97 and 98 to double the frequency of service through that corridor, and perhaps run 98 earlier and 97 later, to make commuting possible in both directions. While it would make 98's MIA departure VERY early in the morning, it would also allow for commuting (or courier service using employees with Florida Railpasses) from MIA to TPA and ORL and back. The trains are already there, and none of this would violate the "no-new-routes" rule that currently exists. If there was enough passenger traffic for it, 97 and 98 could also pick up and drop off one extra coach between TPA and JAX. If the connection up to JAX wasn't enough passenger count to justify running the extra coach from the ORL area up to JAX and back, then do it at SFA, Sanford Auto-Train - they have storage, cleaning, maintenance, and switching capabilities there - add and cut off the additional coach there. The only downside to that is that they normally only handle Superliner equipment, and the trains we're talking about, 91-92-97-98 are all single-level.
 
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It seems like Amtrak is using a bus to transfer passengers to and from Tampa to 91 & 92 when it is running late which seems to be quite frequent. Amtrak really needs to go back to splitting the Tampa and Miami section of the train. While the current arrangement allows for South Florida to Tampa travel, most travelers from the Northeast to Miami prefer 97&98 since they are faster without the added dogleg to Tampa.
 
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