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George Harris

Engineer
Joined
Apr 6, 2006
Messages
5,604
Location
finally! Back in Mississippi
Recently heard that there was some serious opposition to construction of the Honolulu Light Rail Line. My first reaction was a, you have got to be kidding. First, it is a nearly linear city sandwitched between mountain and sea. Second, being a long way from anywhere, gasoline is most likely more expensive than anywhere else (except maybe California?) Third, it is among the most liberal places in the country, which seems to be taken any many locations as equalling pro-rail.

Alas the opposition is very real. The leader of the charge, at least one of them, is a candidate for mayor of Honolulu, Ben Cayetano, who is a former state govenor and is considered to be one of the top contenders for the office. There is an apparently well funded and very active oppositon group that has a web site, www.honolulutraffic.com

A skim through this site shows that it has all the usual anti-rail wind up dolls going full throttle. There is all the usual "It takes to long to build" "It costs too much" and "no one will ever ride it" arguements. To this has been added the driverless cars possibility and other things more appropriate to 1950's science fiction. Theydo a wonderful job of selective choice of statistics and general scaremongering.

By the way: Construction has already started on the first part of this system.
 
George Harris said:
Recently heard that there was some serious opposition to construction of the Honolulu Light Rail Line.
Click to expand...
Aloha

Unfortunately the fight against HLR is ongoing since Mayor Fasi supported it some 30 years ago. sad as your comments are spot on for the reasons to build it.
 
http://www.latimes.c...0,1733863.story

What happened to the ability to use a headline or other text in place of the actual link? Another degradation due to the latest "improvement?"

The headline is:



Honolulu rail project up in the air, again

The story is poorly written, in a fashion that never woulda seen the light of day when the L.A. Times was a world-class newspaper. But among the weeds is a story about why the Honolulu light rail project is yet again in trouble. Sounds like that Cayetano guy should return to his memoirs.
 
Great quote from Mr. Cayetano: "It doesn't make any sense for a city that's next to the water to have an elevated rail system."

Sorry, Chicago, New York, Boston, Miami, Los Angeles, San Diego, etc., the former mayor of Honolulu thinks the elevated portions of your rail system make no sense. Better start tearing them down.
 
trainman74 said:
Great quote from Mr. Cayetano: "It doesn't make any sense for a city that's next to the water to have an elevated rail system."

Sorry, Chicago, New York, Boston, Miami, Los Angeles, San Diego, etc., the former mayor of Honolulu thinks the elevated portions of your rail system make no sense. Better start tearing them down.
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:eek: Yeah, if New York had had all their Rail @ Ground level it would be Generations before the trains would have started Running Again! Wonder what this guy has been Smoking, Maui Wowie perhaps? :rolleyes:
 
He has a "1.5-billion plan calling for bigger buses, dedicated transit lanes, underpasses and a two-mile elevated freeway" and says that it will be less unsightly and cheaper than an elevated rail line that will be the equivalent in width of a two lane road?

If he has "dedicated transit lanes" does that mean he is building two additional lanes of road - same witdth as the railways - or taking two lanes away from the automobiles.

This guy lives in a logic free world.
 
The anti-rail guy - Cayetano - lost the election by a substantial margin.

http://www.latimes.c...0,3040007.story -

Honolulu elects mayor who supports big rail project

"Former House Majority Speaker Kirk Caldwell won an easy victory Tuesday to become Honolulu’s mayor in an election that was widely seen as a referendum on the city’s controversial $5.2-billion rail project.

"Caldwell, who was formerly acting mayor of the city, defeated former Gov. Ben Cayetano, who had emerged from retirement largely with the goal of halting the 20-mile-long rail project, which he says is too costly and will do little to relieve the city’s worsening traffic congestion.

"Caldwell took 53% of the vote to Cayetano’s 45% after starting the campaign at the back of the pack. Incumbent Mayor Peter Carlisle was defeated in the Aug. 11 primary, which sent the two front-runners into a runoff with Cayetano initially holding a substantial lead."

art1chart_large.jpg
 
Just an incidental thought, but given how persistently high gas prices tend to be in Hawaii (the premium tends to be about $.60/gallon over mainland prices these days...basically, call it a 20% markup on the US average), I'm wondering if Oahu in particular might not be a longer-term candidate to load up with light rail/streetcar lines. It's almost physically impossible to find a direct trip on the island that exceeds 55 miles (the only way is basically an end-to-end trip going into the boonies on the west end of the island), and hard to find many that exceed 40 miles. At the same time, it's also big enough that you've got the population for something like this, and the area that the island isn't all either walkable or doable in a 15-minute drive And though I'm not a fan of it in general, a mixed network using BRT to cover connections over the mountains plus a slowly expanding network in the Honolulu area (perhaps a third line heading up the central valley might be a long-term ambition?) could probably hit most or all of the island's towns.
 
Anderson said:
Just an incidental thought, but given how persistently high gas prices tend to be in Hawaii (the premium tends to be about $.60/gallon over mainland prices these days...basically, call it a 20% markup on the US average), I'm wondering if Oahu in particular might not be a longer-term candidate to load up with light rail/streetcar lines. It's almost physically impossible to find a direct trip on the island that exceeds 55 miles (the only way is basically an end-to-end trip going into the boonies on the west end of the island), and hard to find many that exceed 40 miles. At the same time, it's also big enough that you've got the population for something like this, and the area that the island isn't all either walkable or doable in a 15-minute drive And though I'm not a fan of it in general, a mixed network using BRT to cover connections over the mountains plus a slowly expanding network in the Honolulu area (perhaps a third line heading up the central valley might be a long-term ambition?) could probably hit most or all of the island's towns.
Click to expand...
You're right that Hawaiian prices are noticeably higher than most if not all mainland states (although Cali could have eclipsed them in October with the 60 cent rise in 5 days). Regardless, I think that the priority after Line 1 needs to be the airport. Tourists abound all over Hawaii (wonder why?) and I would say that the next best thing after the airport would be an extension east to a terminus centered near Waikiki's large resorts. It's only a jump away, but would be SO much more convenient for thousands of tourists and would be worthwhile. I'm surprised this was not added into the original plans at all.

If the officials do not want the system to go into Waikiki, then I would think it should go northeast and hit the UH at Manoa, a large campus, and many college students would patronize it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
johnny.menhennet said:
Anderson said:
Just an incidental thought, but given how persistently high gas prices tend to be in Hawaii (the premium tends to be about $.60/gallon over mainland prices these days...basically, call it a 20% markup on the US average), I'm wondering if Oahu in particular might not be a longer-term candidate to load up with light rail/streetcar lines. It's almost physically impossible to find a direct trip on the island that exceeds 55 miles (the only way is basically an end-to-end trip going into the boonies on the west end of the island), and hard to find many that exceed 40 miles. At the same time, it's also big enough that you've got the population for something like this, and the area that the island isn't all either walkable or doable in a 15-minute drive And though I'm not a fan of it in general, a mixed network using BRT to cover connections over the mountains plus a slowly expanding network in the Honolulu area (perhaps a third line heading up the central valley might be a long-term ambition?) could probably hit most or all of the island's towns.
Click to expand...
You're right that Hawaiian prices are noticeably higher than most if not all mainland states (although Cali could have eclipsed them in October with the 60 cent rise in 5 days). Regardless, I think that the priority after Line 1 needs to be the airport. Tourists abound all over Hawaii (wonder why?) and I would say that the next best thing after the airport would be an extension east to a terminus centered near Waikiki's large resorts. It's only a jump away, but would be SO much more convenient for thousands of tourists and would be worthwhile. I'm surprised this was not added into the original plans at all.

If the officials do not want the system to go into Waikiki, then I would think it should go northeast and hit the UH at Manoa, a large campus, and many college students would patronize it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I would argue that the airport line should be built in phase one. Tourists are, to a large extent, more willing to use easy public transit. They won't go out of their way to figure out a complicated system of local buses, but if they see that there's these few lines that they can take that go where they want, they'll use them.

I think that's part of the reason why light rail in MSP was so successful (and far above projections.) It goes from downtown Minneapolis (where hotels, the convention center, etc. are within walking distance or a free transfer down Nicollet Mall), through Minneapolis, over to the airport (easy connection with decent signage), down to the Mall of America. They also improved the mapping of the system some with the "high frequency network" to show where the frequent lines are.
 
jebr said:
johnny.menhennet said:
Anderson said:
Just an incidental thought, but given how persistently high gas prices tend to be in Hawaii (the premium tends to be about $.60/gallon over mainland prices these days...basically, call it a 20% markup on the US average), I'm wondering if Oahu in particular might not be a longer-term candidate to load up with light rail/streetcar lines. It's almost physically impossible to find a direct trip on the island that exceeds 55 miles (the only way is basically an end-to-end trip going into the boonies on the west end of the island), and hard to find many that exceed 40 miles. At the same time, it's also big enough that you've got the population for something like this, and the area that the island isn't all either walkable or doable in a 15-minute drive And though I'm not a fan of it in general, a mixed network using BRT to cover connections over the mountains plus a slowly expanding network in the Honolulu area (perhaps a third line heading up the central valley might be a long-term ambition?) could probably hit most or all of the island's towns.
Click to expand...
You're right that Hawaiian prices are noticeably higher than most if not all mainland states (although Cali could have eclipsed them in October with the 60 cent rise in 5 days). Regardless, I think that the priority after Line 1 needs to be the airport. Tourists abound all over Hawaii (wonder why?) and I would say that the next best thing after the airport would be an extension east to a terminus centered near Waikiki's large resorts. It's only a jump away, but would be SO much more convenient for thousands of tourists and would be worthwhile. I'm surprised this was not added into the original plans at all.

If the officials do not want the system to go into Waikiki, then I would think it should go northeast and hit the UH at Manoa, a large campus, and many college students would patronize it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I would argue that the airport line should be built in phase one. Tourists are, to a large extent, more willing to use easy public transit. They won't go out of their way to figure out a complicated system of local buses, but if they see that there's these few lines that they can take that go where they want, they'll use them.

I think that's part of the reason why light rail in MSP was so successful (and far above projections.) It goes from downtown Minneapolis (where hotels, the convention center, etc. are within walking distance or a free transfer down Nicollet Mall), through Minneapolis, over to the airport (easy connection with decent signage), down to the Mall of America. They also improved the mapping of the system some with the "high frequency network" to show where the frequent lines are.
Click to expand...
On the one hand, I agree that the airport needs to be a major priority (Oahu is small enough to avoid car rentals for a number of vacationers, and the line would probably allow many locals to simply take the train to/from the airport). On the other hand, I'm inclined to think that the local transportation purpose of the line needs to take precedence. Granted, it would be ideal if both projects could be taken care of at the same time, or if failing that if the switches and whatnot for the airport line to branch off could go in right from the start.

Then again, depending on the construction plans, it would seem possible (to the extent that the line has to be built from A to B) to get the airport line done more quickly, as it seems to be a far shorter and more straightforward line. It's a pity they couldn't just back up a mile or two of the west end of the line by a year or two and get most of both lines done, with a funding-locked commitment to finish off the last bit a year or two later.
 
Aloha

In an earlier post the route shown is wrong, With all the discussion about the airport not being included, I had to recheck. Here is the official route.

Anderson said:
jebr said:
johnny.menhennet said:
Anderson said:
Just an incidental thought, but given how persistently high gas prices tend to be in Hawaii (the premium tends to be about $.60/gallon over mainland prices these days...basically, call it a 20% markup on the US average), I'm wondering if Oahu in particular might not be a longer-term candidate to load up with light rail/streetcar lines. It's almost physically impossible to find a direct trip on the island that exceeds 55 miles (the only way is basically an end-to-end trip going into the boonies on the west end of the island), and hard to find many that exceed 40 miles. At the same time, it's also big enough that you've got the population for something like this, and the area that the island isn't all either walkable or doable in a 15-minute drive And though I'm not a fan of it in general, a mixed network using BRT to cover connections over the mountains plus a slowly expanding network in the Honolulu area (perhaps a third line heading up the central valley might be a long-term ambition?) could probably hit most or all of the island's towns.
Click to expand...
You're right that Hawaiian prices are noticeably higher than most if not all mainland states (although Cali could have eclipsed them in October with the 60 cent rise in 5 days). Regardless, I think that the priority after Line 1 needs to be the airport. Tourists abound all over Hawaii (wonder why?) and I would say that the next best thing after the airport would be an extension east to a terminus centered near Waikiki's large resorts. It's only a jump away, but would be SO much more convenient for thousands of tourists and would be worthwhile. I'm surprised this was not added into the original plans at all.

If the officials do not want the system to go into Waikiki, then I would think it should go northeast and hit the UH at Manoa, a large campus, and many college students would patronize it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I would argue that the airport line should be built in phase one. Tourists are, to a large extent, more willing to use easy public transit. They won't go out of their way to figure out a complicated system of local buses, but if they see that there's these few lines that they can take that go where they want, they'll use them.

I think that's part of the reason why light rail in MSP was so successful (and far above projections.) It goes from downtown Minneapolis (where hotels, the convention center, etc. are within walking distance or a free transfer down Nicollet Mall), through Minneapolis, over to the airport (easy connection with decent signage), down to the Mall of America. They also improved the mapping of the system some with the "high frequency network" to show where the frequent lines are.
Click to expand...
On the one hand, I agree that the airport needs to be a major priority (Oahu is small enough to avoid car rentals for a number of vacationers, and the line would probably allow many locals to simply take the train to/from the airport). On the other hand, I'm inclined to think that the local transportation purpose of the line needs to take precedence. Granted, it would be ideal if both projects could be taken care of at the same time, or if failing that if the switches and whatnot for the airport line to branch off could go in right from the start.

Then again, depending on the construction plans, it would seem possible (to the extent that the line has to be built from A to B) to get the airport line done more quickly, as it seems to be a far shorter and more straightforward line. It's a pity they couldn't just back up a mile or two of the west end of the line by a year or two and get most of both lines done, with a funding-locked commitment to finish off the last bit a year or two later.
Click to expand...
 
Feds approve funding for Oahu rail project

Honolulu is a step closer to receiving more than $1.55 billion in federal funding for rail, but it's not a done deal yet.

The Federal Transit Administration told Congress it intends to sign what is called a full-funding grant agreement -- a pledge to pay about a third of the $5 billion project building cost.

...

The FTA gave Congress a 30-day notification that it intends to sign Honolulu rail's full-funding grant agreement.
Click to expand...
 
My best guess is that there were several maps worked out, and that the other one is just an option that was refined. It's good to see that everything is rolled together.

Interestingly, given what traffic can be like, the 16-minute train ride from Ala Moana to the airport is actually pretty time-competitive with what cabs can take getting you to Waikiki. Mind you, you've still got a couple of blocks to walk to a lot of hotels, but it's not that bad. I have to wonder if some hotels will offer an optional shuttle from one of the LRT stations once it gets running?

And I saw that bit about the funding...I think the project is probably good to go at this point.
 
An eastern extension through Waikiki and beyond -- all the way to Kamiloiki -- is completely logical, but it will probably be easier to build once something is up and running. (Having a popular line operating tends to shut down the support for the anti-rail fanatics.)
 
Wow! Reading this thread is like deja vu all over again. As a cub reporter for the Honolulu Advertiser in 1974, I covered a proposed 16-mile line, then called a "fixed guideway" that would have run from Kaimuki to Waipahu, near Honolulu Stadium, with planned extensions along Kalanianiole Highway to Hawaii Kai, where traffic was, and still is, at its most linear and most congestion for locals.

The proposal had UMTA support (the Urban Mass Transportation Agency) but fell victim to city-state politics in Honolulu, at the time between Mayor Frank Fasi and Gov. George Ariyoshi. And when a few powerful state senators started to make noises about perhaps supporting Fasi, a young and upcoming house representative, Ben Cayetano, was able to throw a monkey wrench into any compromise.

It's a sad commentary on American public works to think that it has taken 40 years for Honolulu to get back to the starting gate for a project that could have been done four decades earlier. But then there's the old adage, "better late than never." LA is finally up and running with rail mass transit, delayed decades from when the late Mayor Tom Bradley ran his first campaign (in the late 60s, I think) predicated on getting a subway going. Yes, progress is incremental... :mellow:
 
Feds sign $1.55B commitment for Honolulu rail project

WASHINGTON >> Hawaii received a long-awaited $1.55 billion check from the U.S. Department of Transportation today to continue work on a commuter rail project meant to relieve some of the vexing congestion along the H-1 freeway....

The project is expected to cost upwards of $5 billion, and will be completed in stages over the next several years.
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Hawaii board OKs archaeological studies for Honolulu transit-rail project

Hawaii's State Historic Preservation Division has approved archaeological survey reports for the Honolulu Rail Transit project, marking a major step in getting the project's construction back on track, Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation(HART) officials announced last week.

With the division's approval, HART now will work with the Honolulu Department of Planning and Permitting to submit permit applications to the City Council for its approval, said HART Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer Daniel Grabauskas.
...
The Hawaii Supreme Court ruled last year that the archaeological survey work for the entire rail route should have been completed before construction began in East Kapolei. HART completed the studies for the half of the alignment between East Kapolei and Aloha Stadium and was in the process of completing studies for the remainder of the route at the time of the court's decision.

HART temporarily halted construction to comply with the court's decision, and worked on completing the remaining archaeological studies.
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Sen. Schatz announces $236M for Honolulu rail project


Sen. Brian Schatz announced Thursday the release of $236,277,358 in federal funds for the Honolulu rail transit project.

This U.S. Department of Transportation funding will be used to continue building Hawaii’s first light rail system....
Sen. Schatz serves on the Surface Transportation Subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation....
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