Hope's hope dashed

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

stntylr

OBS Chief
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
610
Location
Harker Heights, Texas
Everything looked great for the Texas Eagle to begin service to Hope Ark as early as next week but the brand new ADA compliant platform failed Amtrak's final inspection. The platform is 7 inches farther from the track than Amtrak allows. City officials are trying to work out a soloution such as a rubber bumper to be added but they have no idea when train service can begin now.

Link
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Everything looked great for the Texas Eagle to begin service to Hope Ark as early as next week but the brand new ADA compliant platform failed Amtrak's final inspection. The platform is 7 inches farther from the track than Amtrak allows. City officials are trying to work out a soloution such as a rubber bumper to be added but they have no idea when train service can begin now.

Link
Seven inches?? Who was in charge of the construction? The whole time they are designing and building it no one noticed it was not right?

That is kinda pathetic.
 
Everything looked great for the Texas Eagle to begin service to Hope Ark as early as next week but the brand new ADA compliant platform failed Amtrak's final inspection. The platform is 7 inches farther from the track than Amtrak allows. City officials are trying to work out a soloution such as a rubber bumper to be added but they have no idea when train service can begin now.

Link
Seven inches?? Who was in charge of the construction? The whole time they are designing and building it no one noticed it was not right?

That is kinda pathetic.
Dumb, da dumb, dumb.
 
I for one do not understand that "requirement"!
wacko.gif
All Superliner cars carry a ramp that is more than 7 inches long.

Two other examples I can think of:

  1. The Tri-Rail stations at Ft Lauderdale and Boca Raton have the handicapped accessible platforms at or more than 7 inches from the track. They use a bridge plate between the car and the platform.
  2. The handicapped accessible platform at KIN is far less than 2-3 inches from the side of the train cars. And most of the time, an Acela Express passes thru the station - and past the platform - at 140 to 150 MPH!
 
Well, according to the local officials, they sent the design specs into Amtrak for approval on multiple occasions for approval and no one

at Amtrak had raised any red flags. So I wouldn't be too quick to jump all over the folks in Hope.
 
Well, according to the local officials, they sent the design specs into Amtrak for approval on multiple occasions for approval and no one

at Amtrak had raised any red flags. So I wouldn't be too quick to jump all over the folks in Hope.
It said they were sent to them, but not for any type of approval. It was "to keep them informed of exactly how they were building it and how was to look."

They had the requirements right in front of them and basically ignored them.
 
I have met the folks in Hope working so hard to get a platform built. It shouldn't take 10 years but it has and they've hit every snag possible just to get this built. Something tells me UP is somewhat involved too in this. It took a long time just to deal with them...
 
I for one do not understand that "requirement"!
wacko.gif
All Superliner cars carry a ramp that is more than 7 inches long.
It seems that Amtrak now prefers station to have a slightly elevated platform for Superliners. This allows the platform to be the same level as the door. Thus, I believe that makes the ramps that are in the cars unusable. So the gap can only be so wide.
 
Hang onto those bridge plates. The first UP freight that comes through with a shifted load and that 7" rubber bumper is long gone! :(
 
The following is quoted from the Amtrak Guidelines on Platform Design This is I believe to be from 2009, although it may be a few years older than that. Only relevant statements are quoted below.

All new platforms served by Amtrak along other right-of-way should be constructed at a height of 8" ATR, offset by 5'1" from center line of track on tangent sections.
For platforms served by Amtrak that are located along a host railroad, the design standards of that host railroad should normally be followed. Any inconsistencies with Amtrak’s standards should be brought to the attention of Amtrak and will be reconciled by Amtrak, working with the host railroad.

With respect to platform length, Amtrak generally supports full train length platform design, but will consider options based on individual conditions. Amtrak will make the final determination on platform length after consultation with stakeholders.

Amtrak will coordinate the review of plans, when necessary, with the FRA or other DOT agency in accordance with the provisions of the Amtrak-FRA grant agreement and will inform the entity designing the platform of the views of any agency consulted.

Amtrak Engineering will review the plans and specifications for new or renovated platforms to verify compliance with Amtrak’s technical standards, which standards are consistent with the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance-of-Way Association (AREMA) standards.

Plans and specifications should be forwarded to Amtrak’s Engineering Department <<certain details not copied>> for distribution among engineering disciplines for review and approval.
There are other offsets required by other entities. 5'-1" is common and generally the smallest offset. 5'-6" or 5'-8" are used by some others. Most entities use 8 inches above top of rail as their standard height for low platforms. Based on the quoted value, I suspect that the people designing this platform used the 5'-8" value.

I have no idea what UP's preference is. Note that the standards say that if the host railroad's, in this case UP's, standards are different from Amtrak's, it is up to Amtrak to get the differences worked out.
 
When the movie version comes out, the grapevine says Jim Carrey will play the contractor who built everything.
 
Wait ... contractor? I thought this was simply another case of "government" not being able to do anything as well as private enterprise!
 
I can tell you exactly what happened, because I've been there. The plans were sent to Amtrak, they waited the requisite 90 days for comments, and nothing happened. Why? Because no one at Amtrak even opened the package of drawings (even though Amtrak was paid for the review). Meanwhile, the Union Pacific is fine with the plans for the simple reason that they meet their standards (and I can assure you they looked at them). Since the Amtrak submission was FYI, no response was needed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hope folks even tickled Amtrak with phone calls or e-mails begging for comments. Doesn't matter. When Amtrak decides not to do something, they can't be budged.

So, flash forward to today, the station is ready to open, the platform is in place, and is probably better than 90% of the long distance train platforms currently in use. Now, some power-hungry suit at Amtrak finally looks at the plans, and is shocked, shocked to see that the plans that Amtrak sat on for months and maybe years do not meet the letter of Amtrak's standards. So, he (or she) decides to wield the big stick and smack Hope for the audacity of building something that only meets UP's standards.

My suggestion (and I can tell you first hand, it works). Jump over the head of whoever at Amtrak first didn't do their job and is now being a p***k and hit them hard from above. It is amazing how fast the worm can turn with just a simple phone call from just the right person. Let's see, is there anyone with connections with Hope AR that has any political clout????

There are lots of fine folks at Amtrak, and many of them I consider friends. However, as an organization to do business with, Amtrak is the worst. Not just among the worst: THE WORST -period. Every once in a while they need a beat-down. This sounds like one of those times. I'd be happy to come out of retirement to help.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I do know for a fact that the folks in Hope have been in constant contact with Amtrak for a long time. Which is why this deal sort of just baffles me. I've also come in contact with some really fine folks at Amtrak, and they want nothing but the best for the company to succeed. I guess it's the folks I don't meet that are the problem and perhaps the same ones that are giving Hope problems.
 
An article in the Texarkana Gazette states: www.texarkanagazette.com/news/2012/07/20/off-the-rails-173868.php

The platform, constructed by the city, was found to be close to 6 inches shy of what Amtrak requires . . .
It also stated that

Amtrak requires that train platforms be 5 feet 4 inches from the center of the track . . .
which differs from what can be found is information written by Amtrak.

To read the entire article requires registration, which I just don't do.

It was stated on another site that the offset as built was 5 feet 11 inches.
 
I believe that Hi-level platforms are placed further away from the track then Low-Level platforms. This may account in the discrepancy there.

peter
 
Arkansas Online at www.arkansasonline.com/news/2012/jul/20/problem-discovered-hopes-amtrak-platform/

Officials say the platforms edge should be 5 feet 4 inches from the centerline of the track. . . . But Hope officials say their platform is 5 feet 11 inches from the centerline. The error was discovered when Amtrak officials inspected the track.
I have trouble understanding how this happened. Surely anybody that knows whether they are holding a plan right side up instead of upside down could have with minimal research figured out what the offset had to be to satisfy Amtrak before the first bit of dirt moved.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I for one do not understand that "requirement"!
wacko.gif
All Superliner cars carry a ramp that is more than 7 inches long.
It seems that Amtrak now prefers station to have a slightly elevated platform for Superliners. This allows the platform to be the same level as the door. Thus, I believe that makes the ramps that are in the cars unusable. So the gap can only be so wide.
The crazy thing is, in the past few years, there have been times I've been getting on or off the Eagle at BNL where I had to walk down over the cobbly railroad bed - through the rocks - to get onto the sleeper. I suppose if I were handicapped they'd have stopped on the platform, but it seems strange to insist that the gap be some minimum size when there are times when passengers have to negotiate rough terrain once they get off. So it's like they're super picky one place and "meh" another.

I suppose the BNL problem has been fixed with the new station. I will see (maybe, if I don't wind up on a bus - I can't tell when their trackwork is due to end) when I travel up there the end of this month.
 
The crazy thing is, in the past few years, there have been times I've been getting on or off the Eagle at BNL where I had to walk down over the cobbly railroad bed - through the rocks - to get onto the sleeper. I suppose if I were handicapped they'd have stopped on the platform, but it seems strange to insist that the gap be some minimum size when there are times when passengers have to negotiate rough terrain once they get off. So it's like they're super picky one place and "meh" another.
(BNL = Bloomington-Normal. I don't have these things in my head.)

Not at all. Sounds like what you were dealing with at Boomington was the old platform that had been there for years. What you are seeing at Hope is, when we fix something or build it new, we are going to do it right. That is the way it should be. If and when Bloomington is rebuilt, Amtrak will want it to meet their current standard, not a deteriorated version of a 80 plus year old standard of the Alton Route.
 
The crazy thing is, in the past few years, there have been times I've been getting on or off the Eagle at BNL where I had to walk down over the cobbly railroad bed - through the rocks - to get onto the sleeper. I suppose if I were handicapped they'd have stopped on the platform, but it seems strange to insist that the gap be some minimum size when there are times when passengers have to negotiate rough terrain once they get off. So it's like they're super picky one place and "meh" another.
(BNL = Bloomington-Normal. I don't have these things in my head.)

Not at all. Sounds like what you were dealing with at Boomington was the old platform that had been there for years. What you are seeing at Hope is, when we fix something or build it new, we are going to do it right. That is the way it should be. If and when Bloomington is rebuilt, Amtrak will want it to meet their current standard, not a deteriorated version of a 80 plus year old standard of the Alton Route.
George - BNL was just rebuilt - see THIS thread.
 
I believe that Hi-level platforms are placed further away from the track then Low-Level platforms. This may account in the discrepancy there.

peter
Hope is a low level platform.
Yes. If per-say Hope built their platforms as far as way from the tracks as prescribed for a High-Level platform, then they would be to far away then the prescribed distance for a Low-Level platform. However that's all speculation, I haven't seen the Amtrak rule book on platforms.

peter
 
Yes. If per-say Hope built their platforms as far as way from the tracks as prescribed for a High-Level platform, then they would be to far away then the prescribed distance for a Low-Level platform. However that's all speculation, I haven't seen the Amtrak rule book on platforms.
peter
High Level platforms: 48 inches above top of rail, offset 5 feet 7 inches from track centerline. Northeast Corridor and a few other places.

Low Level platforms: 8 inches above top of rail, offset 5 feet 1 inche from track centerline. Almost everywhere else.

Here it is from Amtrak:

Guidelines on Platform Design
These Amtrak Guidelines on Platform Design are based on two foundations: first and fundamentally, the statutory provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act ("ADA") and the current regulations promulgated under the ADA; second, to the extent consistent with that statutory and regulatory scheme, the best engineering practices of track and platform design at railroad stations. These Amtrak Guidelines are intended to provide assistance to entities inquiring about design parameters for platforms at Amtrak-served stations. These guidelines will ultimately be included in Amtrak’s station manual: Station Program & Planning—Standards and Guidelines.

A. Instructions to Entities Seeking Advice on the Design of Amtrak Platforms

• Questions concerning these Guidelines should be addressed to John Bennett, Assistant Vice President for Policy, Standards, and Business Integration and Chief of Amtrak’s Stations/ Program Development team. He may be reached at (202) 906-2114 or at [email protected].

• Technical details on design should be addressed to Joe Rago, Senior Director Stations and Facilities Engineering Structures, at (215) 349-2120 or at [email protected].

• All platform designs should be in compliance with the ADA statutory and regulatory requirements referenced in Section B below.

• All new platforms served by Amtrak along the Northeast Corridor (and select others as designated by Amtrak) should be constructed at a height of 48” above top of rail (ATR), offset by 5’ 7” from center line of track on tangent sections.

• All new platforms served by Amtrak along other right-of-way should be constructed at a height of 8” ATR, offset by 5’1” from center line of track on tangent sections.

• Questions regarding the appropriate platform heights for particular stations should be addressed to Amtrak (John Bennett) for resolution.

• Platform edges adjacent to track bordering a drop-off must have a detectable warning consistent with ADA requirements. Such detectable warnings shall contrast visually with adjacent surfaces, be 24 inches (610 mm) wide, and run the full length of the public use areas of the platform.

• Design plans should be coordinated with Amtrak and should anticipate the use of one or more of the following assistive boarding devices as provided for in the ADA regulations:

...o Car-borne or platform-mounted wheelchair lifts;

...o Ramps or bridge plates; or

...o Mini-high platforms. (Note, the placement of the mini-high platforms should not have the effect of channeling passengers into a narrow space between the face of the higher-level platform and the edge of the lower platform, since this may place passengers uncomfortably close to moving trains.)

• For platforms served by Amtrak that are located along a host railroad, the design standards of that host railroad should normally be followed. Any inconsistencies with Amtrak’s standards should be brought to the attention of Amtrak and will be reconciled by Amtrak, working with the host railroad.

• With respect to platform length, Amtrak generally supports full train length platform design, but will consider options based on individual conditions. Amtrak will make the final determination on platform length after consultation with stakeholders.

• Amtrak will coordinate the review of plans, when necessary, with the FRA or other DOT agency in accordance with the provisions of the Amtrak-FRA grant agreement and will inform the entity designing the platform of the views of any agency consulted.

• Amtrak Engineering will review the plans and specifications for new or renovated platforms to verify compliance with Amtrak’s technical standards, which standards are consistent with the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance-of-Way Association (AREMA) standards.

• Plans and specifications should be forwarded to Amtrak’s Engineering Department (Mark Wurpel, Sr. Director, Program Development and Planning, Engineering 215- 349-1127) [email protected] for distribution among engineering disciplines for review and approval.

B. The Americans with Disabilities Act Statute and Regulations

Entities should familiarize themselves with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) statutory requirements found at 42 USC § 12162(e) and the U.S. Department of Transportation’s regulations found at 49 CFR Parts 37 and 38. All Amtrak-served stations within the United States (other than flag stops) must be made accessible to passengers with disabilities by July 26, 2010.

With respect to platform requirements, the ADA and implementing regulations generally provide as follows:

• Platforms must be “readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs.”

• At stations with raised platforms, there may be a gap of no more than 3” horizontal and 5/8” vertical between platform edge and entrance to the rail car (recognizing, however, that it is very unlikely that commuter and intercity rail operators can meet this requirement).

• Where it is not operationally or structurally feasible to meet such gap requirements, assistive boarding devices (e.g., ramps or bridge plates, car-borne or platform mounted lifts, mini-high platforms) are permissible means to accommodate passengers with disabilities. Regulatory approval is not required.

• Platform length is not mandated by the ADA.

• Low level platforms must be 8” (205 mm) minimum ATR, although lower levels are permissible where vehicles are boarded from sidewalks or at street level.
 
Thanks for the info! I'll bookmark it for inclusion with my collection of other Amtrak manuals & guidelines. Is a PDF available anywhere for it?

However since the Amtrak requirement is 5'1" (I can see where it could get mis-typed as 5'11") and the platform is 6" to far, then that would put it at 5'7", which is the correct distance for a High-Level platform. So looks like someone in Hope didn't read the rules correctly.

peter
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top