Hourly "morning" Richmond, VA service

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zoltan

zoltan

Service Attendant
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
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230
I just read of this in the NEC route page on Amtrak's website. It sounds an exciting project!

So to what extent do we believe it will actually happening, who is paying for it, and does anyone know if it will affect the Carolinan, Palmetto and silver service trains?
 
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I have not read the story yet, but I would say it's very slim!

Unless they electrify the tracks between WAS and RVR, every train would need an engine change at Union Station. And that effectively cancels out the "hourly service", since they would need to switch locomotives 10-15 times a day - in each direction - every day over and above what they do now! And a change of locomotives is semi time consuming.
 
I forgot to add something that changes this all - Hourly morning service. I still assume they will do the locomotive changes and do through running, rather than do something commuter rail-style.
 
But that is overseas. In Washington and Philadelphia the engine change takes 10 to 15 minutes. As soon as the train stops they goto work. No joke either. When I rode the Cardinal in 07' from PHL to CHI when pulled into Washington as soon as the train stopped I opened the door and popped the stairs on the sleeper and speed walked up to the front to get pictures and video of them taking and putting on the electric to diesel. By the time I got to the head end the meatball was almost cutoff. About 90 seconds after I got there the meatball was cutoff and leaving. It's only 5 cars to! I was to the front in about a minute and the meatball was almost gone into the tunnel. But the P42 was backed on and about 10 minutes after i got there the train had undergone a brake test and the HEP was restored. The train sits in DC for an hour but it was worth it. I know when they did the engine change at PHL it was a little bit of a hassle as PHL has high level platforms and WAS low where the engine change is performed.

Stephen
 
The fact that it's high level doesn't really have anything to do with it. They can switch motors in New Haven probably the quickest of em all. I've seen them done in 8-10 minutes.
 
BTW - I think they are certain to upgrade the tracks and service from RVR to DC as well as extending service to Main Street Station (nice/downtown Richmond).

*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.

I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
 
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abcnews said:
BTW - I think they are certain to upgrade the tracks and service from RVR to DC as well as extending service to Main Street Station (nice/downtown Richmond).
*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.

I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
Click to expand...

I might be wrong but I thought the whole idea of the Carolinian was to serve a lot of NC towns which include Rocky Mount, Wilson and Selma to name others. How would routing the train on the Seaboard effect those towns?
 
Well the intent with the Carolinian is to serve a large number of North Carolina towns, but also to allow those who travel to North Carolina (in-staters and out of staters) to have convenient travel options. Serving downtown Richmond may stimulate more business on the train for those traveling from Richmond to Rocky Mount and points south since they won't have to go out to Staple Mills Rd.
 
I suppose it's not an immediate concern, but isn't Main Street Station in Richmond single-track? Or are there other tracks that just aren't in use?
 
Guest said:
abcnews said:
BTW - I think they are certain to upgrade the tracks and service from RVR to DC as well as extending service to Main Street Station (nice/downtown Richmond).
*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.

I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
Click to expand...

I might be wrong but I thought the whole idea of the Carolinian was to serve a lot of NC towns which include Rocky Mount, Wilson and Selma to name others. How would routing the train on the Seaboard effect those towns?
Click to expand...

The Carolinian is making the "best of a bad situation" since CSX pulled up the main line that went directly from Richmond to Raleigh. And the goal of NC Rail is to really better serve the larger metropolitan areas and get cars off the highways. Just between Raleigh and Charlotte are some rather large cities such as Durham, (plus Burlington, Elon College, etc..), Greensboro and High Point. So naturally, they want to connect these large urban areas in NC with the Northeast (Richmond, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, NJ & NY) and the more direct Raleigh connection (on the old Seaboard mainline) could save about two hours. That makes taking the train more competitive with the car and even air travel.

So routing the Carolinian through Rocky Mount - actually does help Rocky Mount, Wilson and Selma - but at the expense of the other (much larger) urban areas of Central NC. Not to mention, that the Amtrak Palmetto (or Silver Palm) hits those stops within and hour or so of the Carolinian schedule.
 
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abcnews said:
Guest said:
abcnews said:
BTW - I think they are certain to upgrade the tracks and service from RVR to DC as well as extending service to Main Street Station (nice/downtown Richmond).
*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.

I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
Click to expand...

I might be wrong but I thought the whole idea of the Carolinian was to serve a lot of NC towns which include Rocky Mount, Wilson and Selma to name others. How would routing the train on the Seaboard effect those towns?
Click to expand...

The Carolinian is making the "best of a bad situation" since CSX pulled up the main line that went directly from Richmond to Raleigh. And the goal of NC Rail is to really better serve the larger metropolitan areas and get cars off the highways. Just between Raleigh and Charlotte are some rather large cities such as Durham, (plus Burlington, Elon College, etc..), Greensboro and High Point. So naturally, they want to connect these large urban areas in NC with the Northeast (Richmond, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, NJ & NY) and the more direct Raleigh connection (on the old Seaboard mainline) could save about two hours. That makes taking the train more competitive with the car and even air travel.

So routing the Carolinian through Rocky Mount - actually does help Rocky Mount, Wilson and Selma - but at the expense of the other (much larger) urban areas of Central NC. Not to mention, that the Amtrak Palmetto (or Silver Palm) hits those stops within and hour or so of the Carolinian schedule.
Click to expand...
OK, what I think he is referring to is the impending start of the third morning train so we would have a 6 a, 7 a and 8 a Monday through Friday.
 
I can't edit so to add, the new pocket track at the Staples Mill station is almost ready for use so they will be able to store three trains overnight at the station.
 
Years ago(mid 80's), the Carolinian used to run down the Norlina sub between Petersburg and Raleigh. I have a pic somewhere of the NB Carolinian coming thru Alberta, VA. By the time the tracks were pulled up in 1987, the only train running the Seaboard was the Star.
 
The third track is about ready up Franciona hill. The have not started work on the East part of the third track From the new interlocking to Alexandria except moved the 2nd track and new signals.
 
abcnews said:
*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.
I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
Click to expand...
The restoration of the former SAL line is part of the proposed SEHSR (Southeast High Speed Rail) You can find out quite a bit about it by going to www.bytrain.org and looking up the subject. Exactly where in the web site I do not exactly recall. I think they are looking at 110 mph, not 79 mph, for this line if they can ever get it back in.
 
Guest said:
abcnews said:
*Also it looks very good to put the rails back (again) on the Seaboard to Raleigh - with one stop after Patersburg in Lacrosse, VA (former crossing of SAL/SCL and Virginian RR). And a stop in NC at Henderson, NC . So it would be Raleigh, Henderson, NC, LaCrosse, VA, Petersburg (Ettrick/VA State), Richmond's Main Street Station and RVR (Richmond - Staples Mill Road), and then north to NY/BOS.
I think they are looking at 79 MPH diesel service, between Richmond and Raleigh. The Silver Star and Carolinian would take the shorter route to Raleigh (about two hours quicker)
Click to expand...
The restoration of the former SAL line is part of the proposed SEHSR (Southeast High Speed Rail) You can find out quite a bit about it by going to www.bytrain.org and looking up the subject. Exactly where in the web site I do not exactly recall. I think they are looking at 110 mph, not 79 mph, for this line if they can ever get it back in.
Click to expand...
sehsr_front.gif


More at http://www.sehsr.org/ (probably has links to what Guest is talking about)
 
Well we both may be correct about the speeds. Here how it was just explained to me.

The track will actually be built for 110 mph certification - with standard rail and concrete ties, but the current FRA guidelines would limit speeds to 79 mph. If granted an exception, they may get 89 mph. The long term goal is to have the FRA allow 100 mph or even 110 mph. But fences may be required for that, and it was explained to me that they also plan to allow freight traffic on this line, to help justify the cost of construction. So not sure of the details, but by including freight service in the plan, it may reduce the overall speeds granted for pasenger service...But the track will be built to specifications that could allow 110 mph passenger service.
 
abcnews said:
Well we both may be correct about the speeds. Here how it was just explained to me.
The track will actually be built for 110 mph certification - with standard rail and concrete ties, but the current FRA guidelines would limit speeds to 79 mph. If granted an exception, they may get 89 mph. The long term goal is to have the FRA allow 100 mph or even 110 mph. But fences may be required for that, and it was explained to me that they also plan to allow freight traffic on this line, to help justify the cost of construction. So not sure of the details, but by including freight service in the plan, it may reduce the overall speeds granted for pasenger service...But the track will be built to specifications that could allow 110 mph passenger service.
Click to expand...
Restoration of the S line is a $3.7 billion dollar project. No way would they be spending this much just to run the Carolinian, the Star, and a couple freights over it at 79mph. Here is how it has been described to me.

  • NCDOT hopes to buy the right-of-way outright from CSX (with federal help of course.) CSX is definitely at the negotiating table on this one. Evidently management finds the idea of a huge chunk of cash in exchange for an abandoned line that would cost a billion or more to restore appealing. I don't think anybody even knows whether what CSX expects for it is anywhere close to in line with what NCDOT hopes to pay at this point. At any rate
  • Every single crossing on the line from the Boylan Wye in Raleigh to Main Street Station in Richmond will be either closed or grade separated.
  • A tremendous amount of the line will be straightened (Somewhere between 40% to 60% of its total length.)
    [*[The former ROW that will be abandoned as a result of the straightening will be turned into a Rail-Trail, known as the High Speed Rail Trail, which will be a part of the East Coast Greenway.
  • The initial MAS will be 110mph, but the line is being built such that, with further improvements (maybe fences, electrification, lightweight Euro spec tilting rolling stock, etc), it will support even faster trains in the future (does that mean 125? 160? No idea.)
  • They will buy new rolling stock, and use it to run at least 4 new round trips from Raleigh to DC.
  • Freight operations will probably be very limited on the line. I've heard two stories: years ago I read that CSX might want to run some intermodals, probably in the overnight hours. More recently (and from a more direct source) I heard that the only freight operations will be local, where service already exists between Raleigh and Norlina, and will be contracted out to a shortline operator.


As for Rocky Mount, Wilson, and Selma: They already have plenty of service to the NEC via the Florida trains and the Palmetto. Service to the rest of NC could be accomplished by extending one (or more) runs of the Piedmont out their way. Or, alternatively, the Carolinian could keep running on its existing route all the way to NY, while the SEHSR trains provide additional frequency.
 
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