How bad is the inside air quality, during a long train ride?

[BenLandau327]

Hello -

I will be taking the train from NYC to Miami, a 27 to 30 hour ride. The reason i am unable to fly is because in-cabin co2 reaches 2000 ppm in an airplane, and it has a noticeable effect on me (dizzy, feel asphyxiated, etc) for medical reasons. Normal outside air ppm is about 400.

So i am wondering if anyone knows how 'refreshed' the air gets on a long train ride. If i have to, i could bring a portable oxygen concentrator, but i'd rather avoid that hassle if possible.

I've ridden on commuter rail train cars in the Boston area, and was always able to sit near the end of the car, and air would be just fine - as long as it's not freezing out, they would open the door in-between the cars.

Any thoughts on how this situation will be on Amtrak? I found studies on air quality metrics inside planes, but nothing on trains.

Thanks!

 

[Silver Star rider]

As my nickname states, I have taken the Star from NYP to ORL yearly. I never had any problems. There are vents along the window that you can block, but not turn off. There are also controllable vents that you can control fan speed. When they switch locomotives in Washington DC, there is a period of time there is no power to the cars, so nothing will work.

I never felt I had a problem with stale air. I am guessing you are going in a sleeper??

Bruce-SSR

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Trains aren't pressurized. They are ventilated. I wouldn't expect a problem.

 

[BenLandau327]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

Not sure on a sleeper yet..... looking to save money, so may just tough it out in a regular seat, with eye mask and noise covers on the ears......

Very excited here.....moving from the Northeast to Miami.

 

[BenLandau327]

Trains aren't pressurized. They are ventilated. I wouldn't expect a problem.

Excellent point. Thank you. I assume this is better than a Greyhound bus..... not really an option for me, but i would consider it.

Thanks!

 

[VentureForth]

They aren't vents to ambient but GML's point is valid - the train isn't pressurized and there aren't very many places where you go for more than an hour or two without the doors opening. Also, the vestibules are hardly airtight.

 

[BenLandau327]

They aren't vents to ambient but GML's point is valid - the train isn't pressurized and there aren't very many places where you go for more than an hour or two without the doors opening. Also, the vestibules are hardly airtight.

Oh ok, thanks.....so it sounds like the vents that SSR was referring to dont go directly to the outside.....

Sounds like it will be ok...... the reason i ask all this is that when i've taken the commuter rail in Boston, when it's a packed train it is noticeably hard to breathe for me on the train, the air gets really nasty.... hence the reason i need to sit near the doors.....

 

[gmushial]

The biggest downside I've encountered is when the crew fails to make an announcement that while the CZ is passing through either the tunnel under the Sierra or Rocky summits, that the coach end doors should be kept closed. This last trip they didn't and for both the summits we had people wandering back and forth and as such were "treated" to some pretty nasty diesel exhaust fumes for quite a while afterwards. But short of that it's not too bad.

 

[the_traveler]

Also, at some stops, you can go outside. Not at every stop (some are only a minute or less), but it is seldom more than 5-6 hours between longer stops.

 

[BenLandau327]

Gmushial - LOL! ok, that doesnt sound like fun..... i think the train from NYC to Mia doesnt go under any mountains, as far as i know, so that wont be an issue

 

[gmushial]

Gmushial - LOL! ok, that doesnt sound like fun..... i think the train from NYC to Mia doesnt go under any mountains, as far as i know, so that wont be an issue

If you find any 8 and 12 minute tunnels on that route... something's badly amiss. ;-)

 

[FormerOBS]

There are tunnels in Baltimore and DC. And of course the train tunnels under the Hudson River upon departure from NYC. But these tunnels are short in comparison to those out west, so it's unlikely that they will pose a problem.

 

[ehbowen]

There are tunnels in Baltimore and DC. And of course the train tunnels under the Hudson River upon departure from NYC. But these tunnels are short in comparison to those out west, so it's unlikely that they will pose a problem.

(Most of) Those tunnels are also electrically operated (vs. Diesel), so it is even less likely that they will pose a problem.

 

[Texan Eagle]

There are tunnels in Baltimore and DC. And of course the train tunnels under the Hudson River upon departure from NYC. But these tunnels are short in comparison to those out west, so it's unlikely that they will pose a problem.

All those tunnels are crossed on electric locomotives, so no diesel fumes coming in there.

 

[afigg]

There are tunnels in Baltimore and DC. And of course the train tunnels under the Hudson River upon departure from NYC. But these tunnels are short in comparison to those out west, so it's unlikely that they will pose a problem.

All those tunnels are crossed on electric locomotives, so no diesel fumes coming in there.

Well, the train will be on diesel power passing through the First St tunnel in DC south of Union Station, but it is not a long tunnel.
To the OP, I would not expect a problem with the CO2 levels on an Amtrak LD train, Even a full Amfleet II LD coach car has 59 passengers, which is a lot less than a packed commuter train. If you do have a problem, you can get up and walk to near the vestibules at either end of the car which will have fresher air from the doors opening at each stop.

 

[BenLandau327]

There are tunnels in Baltimore and DC. And of course the train tunnels under the Hudson River upon departure from NYC. But these tunnels are short in comparison to those out west, so it's unlikely that they will pose a problem.

All those tunnels are crossed on electric locomotives, so no diesel fumes coming in there.

Well, the train will be on diesel power passing through the First St tunnel in DC south of Union Station, but it is not a long tunnel.
To the OP, I would not expect a problem with the CO2 levels on an Amtrak LD train, Even a full Amfleet II LD coach car has 59 passengers, which is a lot less than a packed commuter train. If you do have a problem, you can get up and walk to near the vestibules at either end of the car which will have fresher air from the doors opening at each stop.

Thank you. I am hoping that since i am taking an overnight train, it will be less crowded than a 'typical' daytime crowd volume that might exist on the Bos to NYC route.

 

[lstone19]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

You have a misconception about how airplane pressurization systems work. While some air is recirculated, about half the air is fresh, taken in by the engines (prior to the bunker section - it is not exhaust air), compressed (since at altitude, it is very thin), and then pumped into the cabin. A misconception many people have is that a pressurized airplane is totally sealed (like a submarine). A pressurized plane does leak air to the outside but the pressurization system works by pumping in more air than is leaking out (pressure is maintained at the desired level by an outflow valve that lets out the excess air beyond what is leaking naturally from the plane). On the other hand, the air in an airplane is not at sea-level pressure. Since there is a maximum pressure difference between inside and outside, at altitude the "cabin pressure altitude" is typically between 5,000 and 8,000 feet (although it can go up to 10,000 feet). So flying in a plane is like spending a few hours in the Rockies.

 

[BenLandau327]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

You have a misconception about how airplane pressurization systems work. While some air is recirculated, about half the air is fresh, taken in by the engines (prior to the bunker section - it is not exhaust air), compressed (since at altitude, it is very thin), and then pumped into the cabin. A misconception many people have is that a pressurized airplane is totally sealed (like a submarine). A pressurized plane does leak air to the outside but the pressurization system works by pumping in more air than is leaking out (pressure is maintained at the desired level by an outflow valve that lets out the excess air beyond what is leaking naturally from the plane). On the other hand, the air in an airplane is not at sea-level pressure. Since there is a maximum pressure difference between inside and outside, at altitude the "cabin pressure altitude" is typically between 5,000 and 8,000 feet (although it can go up to 10,000 feet). So flying in a plane is like spending a few hours in the Rockies.

You're misunderstanding what i said. I'm only talking about the mini-vent blowers right above the seat. Those *are* only recycled cabin air, and nothing fresh from the outside. Of course the cabin does get some fresh outside air generally.

Also, it's more than just that the air is equivalent to a higher altitude, like you described It's also that the ppm of co2 is much higher in a plane, typically around 2000 ppm, as opposed to sea level, which is around 400 ppm. So it's a double whammy

 

[gmushial]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

You have a misconception about how airplane pressurization systems work. While some air is recirculated, about half the air is fresh, taken in by the engines (prior to the bunker section - it is not exhaust air), compressed (since at altitude, it is very thin), and then pumped into the cabin. A misconception many people have is that a pressurized airplane is totally sealed (like a submarine). A pressurized plane does leak air to the outside but the pressurization system works by pumping in more air than is leaking out (pressure is maintained at the desired level by an outflow valve that lets out the excess air beyond what is leaking naturally from the plane). On the other hand, the air in an airplane is not at sea-level pressure. Since there is a maximum pressure difference between inside and outside, at altitude the "cabin pressure altitude" is typically between 5,000 and 8,000 feet (although it can go up to 10,000 feet). So flying in a plane is like spending a few hours in the Rockies.

Obvious somewhat off topic: but as you describe - but there is a limit to the pressure differential btwn inside and outside... but my question is: how much is that over-pressure (relative to the outside) is used as part of the structure (much like the air in a car/truck tire)?

 

[gmushial]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

You have a misconception about how airplane pressurization systems work. While some air is recirculated, about half the air is fresh, taken in by the engines (prior to the bunker section - it is not exhaust air), compressed (since at altitude, it is very thin), and then pumped into the cabin. A misconception many people have is that a pressurized airplane is totally sealed (like a submarine). A pressurized plane does leak air to the outside but the pressurization system works by pumping in more air than is leaking out (pressure is maintained at the desired level by an outflow valve that lets out the excess air beyond what is leaking naturally from the plane). On the other hand, the air in an airplane is not at sea-level pressure. Since there is a maximum pressure difference between inside and outside, at altitude the "cabin pressure altitude" is typically between 5,000 and 8,000 feet (although it can go up to 10,000 feet). So flying in a plane is like spending a few hours in the Rockies.

You're misunderstanding what i said. I'm only talking about the mini-vent blowers right above the seat. Those *are* only recycled cabin air, and nothing fresh from the outside. Of course the cabin does get some fresh outside air generally.

Also, it's more than just that the air is equivalent to a higher altitude, like you described It's also that the ppm of co2 is much higher in a plane, typically around 2000 ppm, as opposed to sea level, which is around 400 ppm. So it's a double whammy

Any idea why the 5x increase over the ambient? Simply human respiration? Or is there some other preferential process?

 

[BenLandau327]

Bruce - thank you!

There are actual vents to the outside? good to hear..... that may be good enough..... as long as it's not like those ones on airplanes right above the seat that just force the recycled air.

You have a misconception about how airplane pressurization systems work. While some air is recirculated, about half the air is fresh, taken in by the engines (prior to the bunker section - it is not exhaust air), compressed (since at altitude, it is very thin), and then pumped into the cabin. A misconception many people have is that a pressurized airplane is totally sealed (like a submarine). A pressurized plane does leak air to the outside but the pressurization system works by pumping in more air than is leaking out (pressure is maintained at the desired level by an outflow valve that lets out the excess air beyond what is leaking naturally from the plane). On the other hand, the air in an airplane is not at sea-level pressure. Since there is a maximum pressure difference between inside and outside, at altitude the "cabin pressure altitude" is typically between 5,000 and 8,000 feet (although it can go up to 10,000 feet). So flying in a plane is like spending a few hours in the Rockies.

You're misunderstanding what i said. I'm only talking about the mini-vent blowers right above the seat. Those *are* only recycled cabin air, and nothing fresh from the outside. Of course the cabin does get some fresh outside air generally.

Also, it's more than just that the air is equivalent to a higher altitude, like you described It's also that the ppm of co2 is much higher in a plane, typically around 2000 ppm, as opposed to sea level, which is around 400 ppm. So it's a double whammy

Any idea why the 5x increase over the ambient? Simply human respiration? Or is there some other preferential process?

I belive it's only human respiration that causes this, much the same as what happens in any room with poor circulation. This is a great article on this, that turned me on the whole subject

factspluslogic.com/articles/43/airlines-should-be-required-to-disclose-cabin-carbon-dioxide-levels

 

[railiner]

Trains aren't pressurized. They are ventilated. I wouldn't expect a problem.

Excellent point. Thank you. I assume this is better than a Greyhound bus..... not really an option for me, but i would consider it.

Thanks!

The MCI and Prevost Greyhound coaches HVAC system most of the time takes in a large proportion of outside air to be heated or cooled, as appropriate, before ventilating the cabin from outlets usually at the base of the (sealed) windows. During extreme weather, such as crossing the Mojave in summer daylight, or crossing the northern plains during bitter winter, or passing thru smoke or dust, the driver can select "Recirc", just as you can in most automobiles. Even in that case, a small percentage of outside air is taken in, rather than all from inside intakes. When the coach is new or well maintained, the system slightly pressurizes the coach to keep out air 'leaking in' thru the seals.

The small 'vents' that are passenger operated under the package racks, are nothing more than fan driven recirculated air. The few Van Hool coaches in the fleet are different..

.

 

[BenLandau327]

Trains aren't pressurized. They are ventilated. I wouldn't expect a problem.

Excellent point. Thank you. I assume this is better than a Greyhound bus..... not really an option for me, but i would consider it.

Thanks!

The MCI and Prevost Greyhound coaches HVAC system most of the time takes in a large proportion of outside air to be heated or cooled, as appropriate, before ventilating the cabin from outlets usually at the base of the (sealed) windows. During extreme weather, such as crossing the Mojave in summer daylight, or crossing the northern plains during bitter winter, or passing thru smoke or dust, the driver can select "Recirc", just as you can in most automobiles. Even in that case, a small percentage of outside air is taken in, rather than all from inside intakes. When the coach is new or well maintained, the system slightly pressurizes the coach to keep out air 'leaking in' thru the seals.

The small 'vents' that are passenger operated under the package racks, are nothing more than fan driven recirculated air. The few Van Hool coaches in the fleet are different..

.

Thank you, great info! Do you have an opinion on which has fresher air on the average? Greyhound vs Amtrak?

 

[BenLandau327]

What i think i will do is take my co2 meter onto the Amtrak and measure it the whole way.... it has a logging function, should be an interesting experiment.

 

[railiner]

I personally have no idea....you may be able to research that info online perhaps, from the bus or train manufacturer's specs somewhere. I don't think the carrier's have that info posted anywhere....perhaps you can take your meter into both, and compare. If so, please let us know your findings, here.

Good luck, and thanks.....