How Should Amtrak Reform?

[Isaac Grove]

Hi,

I haven't taken the liberties of registering as of yet, so look out for me as Isaacg. I'm actually from the Tampa Bay Area, which is a pretty large area. I'm very involved locally, especially when it comes to Amtrak, Tranport, etc. I've heard many people mention Amtrak, along with the words "reform". I think it would be a good idea for Amtrak to reform, but it has to reform slowly, as rapid decisions could cause damage to the reformation of Amtrak. I think that the British Rail scenario is what the US is going through at the moment. Way back when, the "Big Four" comprising of LNER, GWR, LMS, and Southern Rlys were about ready to file bankruptcy, they merged. After all the rail services merged, the national government felt it had the duty to take on the railways, nursing them back to health for re-launching into privitisation. Around the 1940s, dieselisation had spread throught Britain, and the railways became more efficient again. Jumping another two decades, in the 1960s, there was a need for nationalisation and bringing on a more corporate service, rebranding themselves as the British Rail, or known as BR. The success of nationalisation brought the demand for rail, what with the motorways filled to the gills and the less need for air travel, people looked for the train. The greatest success of the BR Corporate years was the introduction of the HST, or otherwise known as HST. They took on a uniformed appearance, and they were the workhorse of BR's fleet. After a more conservative government jumped in with the election of PM Thatcher, there was less support for the railways from the government, respectivly. They believed that the service funding should be up to the counties/shires. Then sprung up the birth of sectorisation. The British Rail was categorized into several groups: Intercity, Regional Railways, Railfreight, Network Southeast, ScotRail, and TransPennine. Into the 90s, a labour government moved in, and they decided that the railways were healthy enough to go back to private enterprise, and were launched into privatisation with the births of GNER, Virgin, Great Western Trains, Anglia Railways, etc. Since then, every 5/10/20 years, each company gets back into the nomination process and is determined by the people and the government whether or not they keep the bid for service on that particular route/region. I think its a great idea for the United States to adopt. I do realise that we are a bigger nation, and all, but I don't think its much of an excuse really, to be honest. Amtrak should nationalise, then split up into a National, Regional, State-wide service, then move into privatisation safely and without too many scars and scratches.

Give your input on how Amtrak should reform/ manage/ operate/ and serve the consumer. Try not to flame the thread if possible, we all have our differences

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

The only way I could see any kind of privatization to work for a company set up like Amtrak would be to downsize Amtrak to just the NEC and the current state sponsored services (and possibly Auto Train)! As for the rest of the long distance network, restore it to a point maybe say around 1994 era so as to keep the maximum routes available, and then turn those trains over to the respective freight railroad owners for which they are hosted by. That said, they would need to enjoy the same (or better) government provided subsidies that Amtrak currently enjoys in order to make it worthwhile in the long run!

However, we should keep in mind a few things. First off, if privatization had worked out to be profitable, then the freights would have never given their passenger trains up to Amtrak or cut them off prior to Amtrak's formation in the first place.

The current Amtrak model is already sorta split up in some fashion as you state. We currently have the NEC, State Supported services, and the Long Distance services. Truth be told, the current Amtrak model just simply needs the proper funding more in line with other modes of transportation. I believe there is hope for that! Also, it would help if Amtrak would be able to spend more in order to bring its equipment to a better state of repair. But at some point, they are going to need new equipment for its long distance services.

It doesn't help that Amtrak has a "money pit" known as the Northeast Corridor (NEC) that it continually has to feed on a daily basis! And it is a very old infrastructure as a whole, and it is breaking down little by little and Amtrak just does not have the capital to bring to where it really needs to be. The NEC needs a huge overhaul, period! But that would cost a fortune. And even though it is one of the busiest and most populous routes in the nation, it only serves a small area of the country! It would be a whole lot easier for Amtrak to fulfill its initial purpose that it was created if it was not responsible for the actual infrastructure of the NEC (similar to how the long distance network is handled itself)!

We also have processes involving union issues which would have to be addressed! That simply takes time, and time is money! But they are necessary processes which would have to take place, and God only knows the variables involved within the willingness factors here!

And as you have already touched on, we also have the factor of our countries actual size in land area and the many metropolitan areas within.

We also have the political aspect that comes into play when and where Amtrak is involved! In this county, for as long as there are politicians competing amongst each other for projects for their own constituents, there will be this mentality within the political arena. Trains such as the "Cardinal" and their very existence should reveal themselves as a good example in this respect.

And as I have posted in another thread, there is a different mentality altogether over in Europe/England. The people of this great United States as a whole needs to come to grips with that at some point in time!

All in all, we have a long road (or better said a set of rails) ahead of us....

OBS gone freight...

 

[Shanghai]

I don't think privatization is the proper course for Amtrak. I'm not aware of any passenger rail service, local or long distance, that is privately operated. I'm also not aware that any passenger service anywhere in the world is truly profitable. In Europe, the Eurostar, TGV and ICE services have claimed they are profitable but if one considers ALL of the costs associated with the operations, they are not profitable. In Europe, particularly in France, Germany and The Netherlands, government has realized to economic importance the rail service brings to commerce, that they have funded rail service in many ways. Of course, individuals and companies pay a higher income tax & VAT tax than we do in this country, but citizens there can see benefits from these taxes.

I would like to see Amtrak focus on routes similar to the NEC with Acela type rolling stock and then link them into a more efficient long distance network. As Europe as an example, there are very few truly long distance trains any more. Most are high speed from point to point linking to complimentary trains from point to point. There are first class, non sleeper, accommodations on these trains. I went from Amsterdam to Cologne on an ICE that had very comfortable seats and TV channels. There wasn't a need for food service because you were rarely more than 2 hours away from a station that offered these services.

I feel at some point, people will realize it is easier to travel by train than to drive in may areas of the country. It seems that the more we spend on highways, the more congested they become and as a nation, we become more dependent on foreign oil. Also, if the airlines had to pay for the FAA and the capital and operating costs of airports, they would require a much greater per passenger subsidy than train passengers.

Restoring our transportation infrastructure is a major challenge for our country. I hope we have leaders with the foresight to put our money in the proper technology and in the proper locations to benefit our country.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I would like to see Amtrak focus on routes similar to the NEC with Acela type rolling stock and then link them into a more efficient long distance network. As Europe as an example, there are very few truly long distance trains any more. Most are high speed from point to point linking to complimentary trains from point to point. There are first class, non sleeper, accommodations on these trains. I went from Amsterdam to Cologne on an ICE that had very comfortable seats and TV channels. There wasn't a need for food service because you were rarely more than 2 hours away from a station that offered these services.

You also have to keep in mind that Europe has smaller distances between major cities than the US. Paris to London via the Chunnel is about 300 miles. Boston to DC is about 450 miles. DC to Atlanta is about 700 miles if you go via the four or five biggest cities that are more or less along the way. New York City to Chicago is about 800 miles. If we want competitive travel times from major city to major city by train in the US to the major city to major city travel times enjoyed in Europe, we're going to need faster trains than Europe uses. We're also going to end up needing to build more miles of track, but that may not be terrible, as the US tends to be fairly rich in most natural resources relative to most of the world.

I feel at some point, people will realize it is easier to travel by train than to drive in may areas of the country. It seems that the more we spend on highways, the more congested they become and as a nation, we become more dependent on foreign oil. Also, if the airlines had to pay for the FAA and the capital and operating costs of airports, they would require a much greater per passenger subsidy than train passengers.

California seems to have finally reached the conclusion that from a land use perspective, they need the efficiency that high speed rail can offer.

Also remember that part of the highway congestion equation is freight. One of our goals should be to make sure there's a plentiful supply of conventional speed freight track, so that any freight traveling at least, say, 500 miles, which is not overly time sensitive, makes most of its journey by rail. Perhaps allowing the freight railroads to take capital investments in mainlines as a tax credit instead of a tax deduction is part of the answer here.

 

[WICT106]

Here's a reform: more than once-per-day-each way service! I wonder how many more riders the train routes would have if they offered more than one departure each way each day.

 

[GG-1]

Here's a reform: more than once-per-day-each way service! I wonder how many more riders the train routes would have if they offered more than one departure each way each day.

Aloha

The best reform, Get more Amtrak Management excited about running a railroad. I believe there are some management people here, and there are extremes in all business, but in my opinion the bad managers outweigh the good in about a similar proportion of good employees outnumbering the bad ones.

Years ago it was the rails that brought this country together, and I believe the rails can and will do so again. (Getting off Soapbox)

Mahalo

Eric

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why are we ignoring the fact that the privitization of British Rail is considered an "unmitigated disaster"?

 

[AlanB]

Why are we ignoring the fact that the privitization of British Rail is considered an "unmitigated disaster"?

Well I'm not sure that I'd call it an unmitigated disaster. Yes, it didn't go the way that it was expected to go and it did end up costing the crown billions of pounds more than it might have had they taken a different approach. But after that series of accidents, they now have a pretty decent balance between private and government train operations. And many lines now have more and newer equipment than they did before the privatization took place.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Here's a reform: more than once-per-day-each way service! I wonder how many more riders the train routes would have if they offered more than one departure each way each day.

Aloha

The best reform, Get more Amtrak Management excited about running a railroad. I believe there are some management people here, and there are extremes in all business, but in my opinion the bad managers outweigh the good in about a similar proportion of good employees outnumbering the bad ones.

Years ago it was the rails that brought this country together, and I believe the rails can and will do so again. (Getting off Soapbox)

Mahalo

Eric

Ain't that the truth! Well said....

OBS gone freight...

 

[George Harris]

Why are we ignoring the fact that the privitization of British Rail is considered an "unmitigated disaster"?

Well I'm not sure that I'd call it an unmitigated disaster. Yes, it didn't go the way that it was expected to go and it did end up costing the crown billions of pounds more than it might have had they taken a different approach. But after that series of accidents, they now have a pretty decent balance between private and government train operations. And many lines now have more and newer equipment than they did before the privatization took place.

Having worked a few years with several ex British Rail guys, I would agree with the GML here. :lol: (GML faints.) :lol:

 

[Guest]

Why are we ignoring the fact that the privitization of British Rail is considered an "unmitigated disaster"?

Well I'm not sure that I'd call it an unmitigated disaster. Yes, it didn't go the way that it was expected to go and it did end up costing the crown billions of pounds more than it might have had they taken a different approach. But after that series of accidents, they now have a pretty decent balance between private and government train operations. And many lines now have more and newer equipment than they did before the privatization took place.

Well yes, one would expect at least a few routes to get new equipment over the course of 12-15 years. On the whole quality of service has fallen (and certainly not increased to the degree it has elsewhere in Europe), while fares have risen significantly faster than inflation. The fragmentation of the network often makes travel much less convenient. Further, outside of High Speed 1 (which was financed by the government, and had already been planned before privatisation) there has a been an almost complete lack of needed capital investment.

(Correction to OP: it was the Conservative government that decided to privatise British Rail, Labour ran on a platform of undoing the privatisation, then once elected changed their minds.)

 

[Larry H.]

Here's a reform: more than once-per-day-each way service! I wonder how many more riders the train routes would have if they offered more than one departure each way each day.

A clue might be in Missouri and Illinois when the services were increased by several more trips per day, the traffic soared.. Less is not better.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

To me the best reform for Amtrak would be to fire every management employee and re-populate the management structure with railroaders. I am shocked at how many of the board members, route managers etc. have not one second of experience running a railroad when they are chosen for the job. Most are politicians, the others airline or bus operators, and a small tiny percent come from freight railroads.

One of the saddest things I ever heard was the route manager for the Crescent going to a meeting in Washington, normally she flew, but this time she was told to take her train in. One of the conductors that worked between Meridian and New Orleans said when they crossed the 6mi Lake Pontchartrain Causeway she said "Wow, I didn't know this train crossed the lake, this is beautiful, I might start taking the train more" Now honestly how can you be worth anything as a manager if you don't know even the most simple things about your job?

My Idea would be to hire senior Locomotive Engineers and Conductors to manage the routes they used to run 6 times a week, as far as service managers go hire LSAs with a lot of experience. But honestly hiring somebody with no experience in a field is a very bad mistake.

In my opinion the only qualified CEO/President in Amtrak's history was Graham Claytor, he had sufficient experience in running the passenger in of the Southern Railroad and did the best job of any President/CEO to date.

 

[frj1983]

Why are we ignoring the fact that the privitization of British Rail is considered an "unmitigated disaster"?

Well I'm not sure that I'd call it an unmitigated disaster. Yes, it didn't go the way that it was expected to go and it did end up costing the crown billions of pounds more than it might have had they taken a different approach. But after that series of accidents, they now have a pretty decent balance between private and government train operations. And many lines now have more and newer equipment than they did before the privatization took place.

Having worked a few years with several ex British Rail guys, I would agree with the GML here. :lol: (GML faints.) :lol:

My wife's pen friends from Great Britain bemoan the current service with it's rude on-board personnel, dirty cars, and lack of punctuality. Wait a minute, what system am I talking about here???

 

[Sam Damon]

Step one: Make all (that's ALL) Amtrak trains run on time. Yes, folks, I'm talking about DB standards of "on time" -- not the wussy standard Amtrak uses at present.

Let me reiterate: If #43 is supposed to show up at Greensburg, PA at 8:01 A.M., I had better be able to set my watch by it. No lame excuses (except legitimate safety issues, and NO, delaying Amtrak trains for freights is NOT an excuse).

Having intercity passenger trains run on time would help convince the American nation something is right with the nation. Such a move also exposes weak points in the nation's railroad network, which is also not a bad thing.

Step two: New rolling stock. That's been discussed endlessly, so I'll just say this. Waive the buff strength restrictions (for this round of rolling stock), and start up Amfleet and Superliner production lines. That should buy enough time to reengineer things that will work for 30 years or so. Starting from scratch with Yet Another Rolling Stock Design, IMO, will take more time than is good to crank up intercity passenger rail service.

Let the debate continue.

 

[Sam Damon]

I forgot to mention one other thing in Step one of my last post: having Amtrak trains run on time would quickly settle the notion of which managers are competent, and which aren't.

 

[AlanB]

To me the best reform for Amtrak would be to fire every management employee and re-populate the management structure with railroaders. I am shocked at how many of the board members, route managers etc. have not one second of experience running a railroad when they are chosen for the job. Most are politicians, the others airline or bus operators, and a small tiny percent come from freight railroads.
One of the saddest things I ever heard was the route manager for the Crescent going to a meeting in Washington, normally she flew, but this time she was told to take her train in. One of the conductors that worked between Meridian and New Orleans said when they crossed the 6mi Lake Pontchartrain Causeway she said "Wow, I didn't know this train crossed the lake, this is beautiful, I might start taking the train more" Now honestly how can you be worth anything as a manager if you don't know even the most simple things about your job?

My Idea would be to hire senior Locomotive Engineers and Conductors to manage the routes they used to run 6 times a week, as far as service managers go hire LSAs with a lot of experience. But honestly hiring somebody with no experience in a field is a very bad mistake.

In my opinion the only qualified CEO/President in Amtrak's history was Graham Claytor, he had sufficient experience in running the passenger in of the Southern Railroad and did the best job of any President/CEO to date.

I'm so weary of these "bash management" threads. Are there bad managers out there? Absolutely! No doubt. But there are also good manages out there. Just like there are bad workers out there and good ones out there. And a good manager can't always make a bad employee into a good employee. I'm certain that if we asked Jay (Had8ley), Eric (GG-1), Slim (AmtrakOBS) all of whom are union members to quickly name 5 fellow workers who are bad employees that they could rattle off names without much effort. I'm also certain that they could all give us names of good workers. And I'm willing to bet that all three could give us some good and bad managers too.

As for the idea of hiring senior locomotive engineers to manage a route, what makes you think that they would know anything about managing a route, much less perhaps as many as 100 employees? Heck, I'm betting that there are some great, senior locomotive engineers out there who wouldn't have the first clue on how to manage a locomotive shop. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is one engineer out there who knows how to manage a loco shop, but he/she might also not be a senior engineer either. Years ago we had a member here, MiamiJoe, who worked for Amtrak down in the Hialeah shops. The worst manager he ever had was a former worker bee who had not a clue about how to manage a car shop. They held a party when that man got transferred out under David Gunn.

And while there's always the possibility that there is an engineer out there whose a gourmet chef, I'm not at all sure that I want my next meal in the dining car picked out for me by someone who used to drive trains for a living.

Finally, let me point out two of the newer VP's at Amtrak. The first is Thomas P Schmidt, head of the transportation department. He's a 35 year veteran of the RR industry, including several years at Penn Central and then CSX. And there is Emmett Fremaux, VP of Marketing and Product Management. We have Emmett to thank for the fact that cafe cars on the NEC and else where now open within minutes of departure from an originating station. We have Emmett to thank for mid-run cleanings on Acela and the Regionals. We have Emmett to thank for the new menus at Amtrak, even though I don't believe that he personally oversaw the process.

And I can tell you from personal experience that Emmett is working hard to surround himself with managers who work hard and really do care about Amtrak and the product it delivers. There is one recently promoted manager whom I know worked very hard to roll out the first CCC's on the City of NOL. This same manager also gives graciously of his own free time to help promote Amtrak in ways that might surprise you, but I'm not at liberty to share.

I can't begin to imagine how he might feel if he were to one day stumble across this post stating that he should be fired because he's not doing his job and/or because he didn't come from a RR background. :unsure: But I'm sure that he wouldn't be pleased to say the least.

Again, I'm not going to suggest that all managers are like the three above, and that there aren't managers who do need to find employment elsewhere. But I think that we all need to remember that there are many good, hard working, and dedicated managers at Amtrak. And I think that we need to avoid blanket statements like the one made above.

And to Crescent ATN, while I quoted your post because it's the most recent example, my little tirade isn't directed solely at you and I apologize if it seems that way. It's my hope that all who read this and visit here regularly, remember this and remember that things aren't always as easy as they might seem when sitting in the warm comfort of our living rooms.

 

[access bob]

I forgot to mention one other thing in Step one of my last post: having Amtrak trains run on time would quickly settle the notion of which managers are competent, and which aren't.

better than DB try the Japanese concept of on time, 30 seconds on shinkansen.

but you need a real railroad to run on with sufficient capacity and signaling to handle it..

twice daily on every route should be an absolute minimum level of service.

every city of 100,000 or more should have service

design a true transcontinetal car too, a low profile double decker maybe. I can think of a design or two that might work.

and actually run it coast to coast on a few routes..

in my dream list it would include, a "Midnight sun train" Seattle-Fairbanks (or even Barrow)

maybe I'll live to see it and ride it.

Bob

 

[saxman]

Step one: Make all (that's ALL) Amtrak trains run on time. Yes, folks, I'm talking about DB standards of "on time" -- not the wussy standard Amtrak uses at present.

Hehe, I just rode the DB last week. Everything was 30 minutes late from Frankfurt. But maybe that was because of the snow storm blowing through at the moment. :lol:

 

[GG-1]

To me the best reform for Amtrak would be to fire every management employee and re-populate the management structure with railroaders. I am shocked at how many of the board members, route managers etc. have not one second of experience running a railroad when they are chosen for the job. Most are politicians, the others airline or bus operators, and a small tiny percent come from freight railroads.

I'm so weary of these "bash management" threads. Are there bad managers out there? Absolutely! No doubt. But there are also good manages out there. Just like there are bad workers out there and good ones out there. And a good manager can't always make a bad employee into a good employee. I'm certain that if we asked Jay (Had8ley), Eric (GG-1), Slim (AmtrakOBS) all of whom are union members to quickly name 5 fellow workers who are bad employees that they could rattle off names without much effort. I'm also certain that they could all give us names of good workers. And I'm willing to bet that all three could give us some good and bad managers too.

Aloha

I also am frustrated by the "bash Management" comments. Being a labor Representative and in the same company I would expect to see Allan on the other side of the bargaining table. He respects workers and wants to run a business, As I respect the Managers. A business needs both.

So to be clear I am not bashing, but restating that unfortunately, I believe Amtrak Management, as a group, don't want to run a railroad. Again as a group, they could be managing any business. The man at one end of the team, needs to respect the man at the other end of the team. In addition everyone of the team members must understand "RESPECT" is earned.

And as Alan said, I could name five (unfortunately more) bad workers, and if management need's to discipline those workers, my job, is to see that the rules of employment (the contract) and workers rights (Labor Laws) are met, as is the duty of the company management.

 

[jackal]

I don't think privatization is the proper course for Amtrak. I'm not aware of any passenger rail service, local or long distance, that is privately operated. I'm also not aware that any passenger service anywhere in the world is truly profitable. In Europe, the Eurostar, TGV and ICE services have claimed they are profitable but if one considers ALL of the costs associated with the operations, they are not profitable.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that's not how the British privatization scheme worked. Basically, the train operators there (Virgin, GW, etc.) are franchises who are licensed to run the operations of their lines. The actual capital costs of at least the tracks (and maybe, to some extent, the rolling stock, though I have no idea about this) are financed by the British government.

It's rather like the Interstate highway system we have here: the government funds the creation of the roads, which makes driving trucks across the country profitable.

Perhaps it has been an abject failure, but at least on a conceptual level, it's a way to introduce competition in private industry and the resulting drive towards efficiency and cost reduction. For some reason or another, though, I guess that hasn't happened, so I can't say I'm a fan of it here (even though I tend to lean libertarian in these respects).

in my dream list it would include, a "Midnight sun train" Seattle-Fairbanks (or even Barrow)

maybe I'll live to see it and ride it.

Bob

I hope so, too! The rail extension to Delta Junction (southeast of Fairbanks) is becoming more of a real chance...and that's the first step toward connecting through Canada! I can't wait for that to happen! (I certainly hope I live to see it.)