ParrotRob
Service Attendant
I'll take those odds.JoeBas said:
How to handle the TSA? Take Amtrak!
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With some serious trepidation, and against my best judgement, here is the reasoning behind the legality of airport security screening and searches. Somehow I know I'll be sorry I didn't just keep my mouth shut and continued watching the Knicks and Bulls.
The Fourth Amendment:
The key word is "unreasonable." Case law has found that airport security checks are not unreasonable and do not violate the Fourth Amendment based on a principle called the Administrative Search Doctrine. Basically, airport screening has been found by the courts to be administrative (not criminal) searches “conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme” where the essential administrative purpose is “to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft”. An airport screening search is reasonable if it is no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, and it is confined in good faith to that purpose.
The screening and searches must be conducted by administrative personnel, not armed police, The screening and searches must not carry the stigma of a criminal investigation, and cannot be for the purpose of discovering evidence of criminal activity. A person must be allowed to avoid screening by electing not to fly, however, that election must take place before the screening begins. Once a person enters the screening process, they cannot back out.
If all those conditions are met, then the courts have determined that the searches are legal and are not "unreasonable" as courts have interpreted the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. If, in the course of the adminstrative search, evidence of a crime is discovered, that evidence is admissible at a criminal trial.
The key case that established this principle was US v Davis, 482 F.2d 893 (1973). Multiple cases have followed this one, and all have been decided in favor of airport security searches not being in violation of the Fourth Amendment. More cases are in process, with the point of argument being the degree to which present airport security meets the "reasonable" requirement of Davis. There is no way to know if future courts will change the interpretation of the administrative exceptions to the Fourth Amendment. However, courts are typically not inclined to overturn case law absent significant changes in circumstances or a change in the arguments.
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Devil's Advocate
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All my groping sessions were indeed performed by goons of the same sex. However, they were completely unlike any sort of conventional "pat down" you might receive while entering a sporting event or club or a fancy hotel in a rough part of the world. I mean, you would know, right? Oh, wait, you've never had one, have you? You're just "imagining" what it might be like and using that imagination to criticize others.
You think giving people two equally poor choices makes it incapable of being challenged? I thought this was the land of the free and home of the brave. And yet here we have folks who are furious to the point of SHOUTING just because somebody isn't falling in line behind them. Does your father work for the TSA or something? Because otherwise I don't see what you're so fired up about.
ParrotRob
Service Attendant
No, my father is disabled, thanks for asking. What I'm fired up about is the rampant exaggeration and outright lying that some people will do to try to make their point. You know as well as I do that that guy a few posts up didn't have his junk pulled by a begloved FEMALE TSA agent. If you want to have civilized discourse and an intelligent debate about the issue, let's go. But let's debate it based on fact, not fabrications and fearmongering.Texas Sunset said:
ParrotRob
Service Attendant
No, I haven't. I don't like pat-downs, so I choose not to have them. It's that simple.Texas Sunset said:
Now there's a thought...though I've got to wonder what that would cost (even if using something like a Cessna for a trip) if I was hell-bent on flying somewhere by non-commercial aviation. Not cheap, I would imagine, but I do wonder.
I'll say that I've voluntarily not flown in a rather long time, to the point that I find flying to be increasingly a strange thing to do and something that I've only considered even in passing for trips that would take more than a week (if not be outright impossible) otherwise...and even in those cases, my inclination tends to come down against taking the trip.
JoeBas
Conductor
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I'm sorry I thought calling other members liars was against the TOS. I'll have to double check that.
Anyway you lose all, ALL credibility yourself when you say TSA "ALWAYS" does ANYTHING the same way. This is the agency that prides itself on consistent inconsistency.
You weren't there so you can drop the "respectful" condescension and I'll consider accepting your apology for calling me a liar.
Anyway you lose all, ALL credibility yourself when you say TSA "ALWAYS" does ANYTHING the same way. This is the agency that prides itself on consistent inconsistency.
You weren't there so you can drop the "respectful" condescension and I'll consider accepting your apology for calling me a liar.
Texan Eagle
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The rate at which any and all topics that have mention of air travel turn into 'TSA is a blood-sucking monster while Amtrak is such an angel' rants, one such discussion should instead be put up on the top as a sticky permanently.
On the one hand, given the topic, I think this was destined to become such a thread. On the other hand, for good or ill I think that your statement is a reasonable enumeration of the views of most of our readers.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
Yet the TSA is slowly encroaching on Amtraks Territory.
I have to share an Amtrak TSA story from last summer. I think this was at WAS. True story.
A joint team of Amtrak Police and TSA K-9 units were at the station.
The Amtrak dog and handler diligently and competently scoured a hallway, moving with purpose, knowing where to focus, and generally inspiring a sense of confidence and competence.
The poor TSA handler was practically being pulled along by his dog, which was weaving back and forth along a crowded hallway. This dog appeared to have no sense of purpose or mission. It just looked confused.
That pretty much summed up my opinions of TSA vs. the Amtrak police in a nutshell.
A joint team of Amtrak Police and TSA K-9 units were at the station.
The Amtrak dog and handler diligently and competently scoured a hallway, moving with purpose, knowing where to focus, and generally inspiring a sense of confidence and competence.
The poor TSA handler was practically being pulled along by his dog, which was weaving back and forth along a crowded hallway. This dog appeared to have no sense of purpose or mission. It just looked confused.
That pretty much summed up my opinions of TSA vs. the Amtrak police in a nutshell.
A step too far.
Box cutters and utility knives with blades less than 4" were allowed/harmless on/before 9/11 and we see how that one turned out. Nail clippers are not prohibited. Oh heavens, you have to take off your shoes and jewelry, and then put them right back on again 30 seconds later. Big deal. When I went to the Masters this past weekend, I had to go through security that was very similar to airport security, minus the shoe removal mandate. Did I or anyone else complain as they emptied everything out of their pockets and walked through a metal detector and, for some, got wanded by security personnel? Nope. But somehow when the TSA does the exact same thing, it's some huge ordeal. A double standard, if you ask me. <_<
I agree. Another quality thread on airline travel here at Amtrak Unlimited that has predictably transformed into the whole TSA-gropes-me/air-travel-sucks/Amtrak-does-no-evil rant.
I get it. I get that some people don't like flying, I get that some people don't like the TSA and its policies, and I get that some people don't agree with having to pay for a checked bag. Some people will never be pleased. But that's the way it is, and bitching about it on an Amtrak forum will do nothing to change the current procedures in place. This is the world that air travel exists in now, and bitterness will not magically correct it. I grow very tired of threads like these. There are quality people that work at our airlines who go to work every day with the intent of pleasing their passengers, and most of the crews and pilots fly with great pride. I myself find that the customer service at our major airlines is superior and far more consistent to what I find anywhere in the Amtrak system. I fly through security (no pun intended) and don't make a stink of it, because it is part of the flying experience. Plus, I personally don't have a problem with an automated machine outlining a piece of metal on a generic body image that I may have left on me by accident. By the way, if you boneheads would just take your stuff out of your pockets completely the first time and proceed through the metal detector/scanner as directed, you would be through the process in a matter of seconds and wouldn't really ever have to worry about a pat-down anyway. At the end of the day, the vast majority of TSA screeners in my experience are decent hard working Americans trying to provide for themselves and/or their family who are simply doing their job as they have been told. Placing a blanket negative stereotype on these individuals isn't very fair.
Devil's Advocate
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Yeah, we know they're still getting through. Or had you not heard, Bob?
Nail clippers have been prohibited at various times. But I guess if you didn't personally see it then it simply never happened, eh Bob?
Dealing with the TSA is no big deal. Got it. Meanwhile, seeing someone dare to criticize the TSA is a huge stink-worthy fiasco. Got it. Thanks for the info Bob.
ParrotRob
Service Attendant
Condemning the entire TSA because one or two agents may overstep their authority is kind of like condemning the entire teaching industry because one or two teachers go too far with a student. In EVERY industry where one is granted some authority, there will be those that abuse it. That doesn't mean the industry itself is flawed.Texas Sunset said:
bmorechris
Train Attendant
I have had 4 TSA patdowns (one at the Aruba preclearance outpost, the rest at domestic airports)thanks to a metal rod in my leg (since removed) before the backscatter/millimeter wave machines were up and running everywhere. Each time it was exactly the same, go through metal detector, it goes off, tell the TSA agent I have a medical implant. Twice it was a woman at the detector so they showed me to the little glass booth, ask me to wait, go get a man. Wait a couple minutes, they apologize for the wait, wand me until they find the rod in my leg, then they say they are going to perform a patdown using the back of their hands, proceeded to have them check arms, front/back/sides of torso, legs up to groin, all professionally and politely. I am guessing this is how 99.9% of the screenings go. Also the exact same screening I get when going to an NFL game. The reason you hear about the bad ones is because they are noteworthy, no one is going online to post about their great TSA experience. And to the people who have had issues at screening locations, get the agents name, contact the TSA/congresscritters/press because there are always going to be bad apples who go on power trips. And to call all TSA agents goons is pretty unfair, I work right next to an airport and see TSA agents all the time getting lunch, etc. They are all pretty normal looking people, and seem pleasant when I have interacted with them.
"Q. Is it okay to take pictures or videos inside the airport and at a checkpoint?
A. TSA does not prohibit photographs at screening locations; however, local laws, state statutes, or local ordinances may. We recommend contacting your local airport authority in advance to ensure you are familiar with their local procedures. While TSA does not prohibit the public, passengers or press from photographing, videotaping, or filming at screening locations, TSA may ask a photographer to stop if they are interfering with the screening process or taking photos of X-ray monitor screens in a checkpoint. The same guidelines apply to media. Members of the press should contact TSA's Office of Public Affairs, at 571-227-2829, prior to filming or taking photographs at a security checkpoint.
While there is a difference between taking a casual photo and someone conducting surveillance, travelers should not be surprised if TSA or local law enforcement inquires about their actions. This is important to ensure the safety of the traveling public and something our officers may do as part of their security mission."
That would be because of a local ordinance, not a TSA "law"
"Q. Is it okay to take pictures or videos inside the airport and at a checkpoint?
A. TSA does not prohibit photographs at screening locations; however, local laws, state statutes, or local ordinances may. We recommend contacting your local airport authority in advance to ensure you are familiar with their local procedures. While TSA does not prohibit the public, passengers or press from photographing, videotaping, or filming at screening locations, TSA may ask a photographer to stop if they are interfering with the screening process or taking photos of X-ray monitor screens in a checkpoint. The same guidelines apply to media. Members of the press should contact TSA's Office of Public Affairs, at 571-227-2829, prior to filming or taking photographs at a security checkpoint.
While there is a difference between taking a casual photo and someone conducting surveillance, travelers should not be surprised if TSA or local law enforcement inquires about their actions. This is important to ensure the safety of the traveling public and something our officers may do as part of their security mission."
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin Feb 1775
As for me, I will never give up my freedom or liberty and will resist tyranny to my last breath.
Benjamin Franklin Feb 1775
As for me, I will never give up my freedom or liberty and will resist tyranny to my last breath.
jis
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Seems like a good idea.
I find it fascinating the length to which people have to go, to justify their preference to travel by Amtrak - must be a painful experience for them to need such lengthy justification.
I do it (travel by trains in general and Amtrak in particular) whenever reasonable opportunities present themselves, simply because I love it and I say it so. Why the need for the TSA hatred reason or the baggage fee reason or whatever? If all those disappeared would these folks just abandon Amtrak and just start flying or would they need to look for other reasons - but never just that they love trains?On the whole I think this is a very interesting anthropological phenomenon worth a study.
amamba
Engineer
Finally, after three pages, someone after my own heart. I find it interesting that the original topic of this thread was "take amtrak to avoid the TSA."
Meanwhile, starting in 2011, we found TSA agents set up checkpoints in a train station and then screen passengers detraining, I personally saw TSA agents in both CUS and NYP, and the amtrak police swabbed bags for explosives for many weeks in PVD.
The TSA harasses airline employees who have access to restricted areas, and have had it for years, FAR more than they harass the traveling public. The way they treat the passengers is generally quite sane, as people here have pointed out. But I will weigh in with,
1) Sometimes you have to fly - no Amtrak to Hawaii, and sometimes, time is of the essence and air travel is simply a necessity for many, many people.
2) It is nice not to have to pay a checked bag fee on Amtrak, no question!
3) Taking the train is indeed, a lot of fun, and an adventure.
1) Sometimes you have to fly - no Amtrak to Hawaii, and sometimes, time is of the essence and air travel is simply a necessity for many, many people.
2) It is nice not to have to pay a checked bag fee on Amtrak, no question!
3) Taking the train is indeed, a lot of fun, and an adventure.
JoeBas
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I think if Airport Security returned to Walk Through Metal Detectors, a hand wanding for alarming, and simple pat of the targeted area, as you described above, there would be several orders of magnitude less complaint than there is about the current process.
However, the current process does not even VAGUELY resemble what you described above. Makes me wonder how long it's been since you've flown, or if you're trying to deliberately be disingenuous.
Again, your experience must be everyone's. There couldn't possibly be anyone out there who, say, for medical reasons, can't just march through the scanner as directed. We're just all idiots or troublemakers.
JoeBas
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I think your view is pretty myopic... I have a fairly wide and fully developed range of interests, and whenever the subject of this abomination of an agency comes up in any of the various fora, my response is the same - registered disgust.I find it fascinating the length to which people have to go, to justify their preference to travel by Amtrak - must be a painful experience for them to need such lengthy justification.
JoeBas
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There's a bit of a difference here.
1) TSA is a GUEST on Amtrak's property - Chief O'Connor has made that perfectly clear. They defer to Amtrak police at all time, who are properly trained and sworn Law Enforcement Officers, with clearly delineated boundaries and rules governing their behavior, and whom I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with.
2) Amtrak Police were performing the swabbing you mentioned in PVD, and again, under a well regulated department, I don't have a problem with this. There's a WORLD of difference between a simple swab of a bag exterior and what goes on in airports these days.
Some of you seem to be laboring under the delusion that people want there to be NO security at all. What we want is meaningful, useful, non-intrusive security, not the worthless (and dehumanizing to boot) boondoggle of "Security Theater" the airports have now become.
amamba
Engineer
I actually consider what happened in PVD to be security theater, because they were only swabbing people boarding amtrak trains and not anyone boarding the MBTA trains traveling on the same rails/tracks and to the same destination.
Now maybe they did have a specific threat that they were responding to - I don't know. But it seems to me that if I wanted to bring explosives on a train, and I saw police swabbing people for explosives, I would just wait and take the slower train one platform over that was not being screened.
I don't have a problem with security - but I do have a problem with "security theater."
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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I think you misunderstand. I actually do think that the way the TSA operates is an abomination. It is not the individuals necessarily. Most are pretty decent human beings, a few are on power trips like in every walk of life. The general conception and the mode of operation can do with much improvement. I have been on record posting on that subject in this forum in the past.I think your view is pretty myopic... I have a fairly wide and fully developed range of interests, and whenever the subject of this abomination of an agency comes up in any of the various fora, my response is the same - registered disgust.I find it fascinating the length to which people have to go, to justify their preference to travel by Amtrak - must be a painful experience for them to need such lengthy justification.
I was addressing the original topic of the thread which suggested that one should take Amtrak to avoid the TSA. My point was that one should not need TSA as a justification for riding Amtrak. Amtrak is fun to ride and use irrespective of whether TSA stands between one and ones plane ride or not. Just like anything else, everything has its appropriate use. For my purposes Amtrak is great for short to medium distance trips in general and for long trips when on vacation or no other mode is available. For example I seldom use anything but Amtrak on the NEC. OTOH I also seldom use Amtrak when I have to go out to California from NJ, and naturally never use Amtrak to go to London UK. These decisions in my case do not involve TSA in any major way usually. The suitability of the mode given the distances involved and the time available for the trip is a much greater and indeed, primary, consideration.
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JoeBas
Conductor
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Well of COURSE it was security theater - there really is not much point on doing this kind of thing on a train, when all some evildoing turrwrist would have to do is drive a dump truck onto the ROW in front of an approaching train, but at least it was minimally intrusive security theater.
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