How to handle the TSA? Take Amtrak!

[Trogdor]

List "A seems much bigger than list "B", so I guess that I'd call that a "Majority"... though this is not independently verified, but from a collaborative wiki project.

The list is not a complete list of all US airports with commercial service. I don't know how many are not on there, but I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

 

[jis]

I believe that a majority of US airports has at least one scanner installed somewhere. I am not sure that a majority of all security check positions have scanners yet though. Is that sort of information available somewhere?

The wiki I lifted that from had extraneous details about which checkpoints did, but not information about how many total or what percentage, etc.

That would really get hair-splitty, too, since some checkpoints are equipped with both and use one or the other depending on load factors/line length/etc. Not to mention daily fluctuations in checkpoints open vs. closed, etc. Thing to keep in mind is that it's all going one way - TOWARD AIT - as no checkpoints are going from AIT to Metal Detector, but the roll-out of AIT continues.

I was just curious. Not trying to split hair. At EWR Terminal C for example quite often they use just the metal detectors even though each checkpoint has at least one scanner installed. For me either one works fine. I have not gotten a full service massage in a while - like a few years now I wish United and EWR would get the trusted traveler program up and running sooner rather than later at EWR. I qualify in two ways for it.

 

[JoeBas]

List "A seems much bigger than list "B", so I guess that I'd call that a "Majority"... though this is not independently verified, but from a collaborative wiki project.

The list is not a complete list of all US airports with commercial service. I don't know how many are not on there, but I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

Well, as the disclaimer said, this was simply a wiki I lifted from a site where this is a prominent discussion, I can give no claim to the thoroughness of the info.

And as illustrated by the tiny nature of some of the airports, just because an airport isn't on there doesn't mean it doesn't have AIT installed.

The point does seem to be wandering a bit, though, which is that as long as Amtrak remains a venue which is 100% free of both TSA Rubdowns and Scanners, those who prefer to avoid those things will continue to factor that into their decision matrix.

I personally think there's no small correlation between the record ridership being seen on Amtrak, and the airport/airline situation in this country. Again, anecdotal, based on the conversations I've had on board and the fact that while the number of people riding the rails grows, the airlines have cut and cut and cut flights to keep load factors up. And when cross-cut with the "Why does Amtrak cost more than flying" thread, you've got to wonder why some people are paying more AND taking longer AND putting up with Oh-Dark-Thirty arrivals/departures to get where they're going. I can assure you that TSA and the airline situation in general is a part of it.

 

[BobWeaver]

List "A seems much bigger than list "B", so I guess that I'd call that a "Majority"... though this is not independently verified, but from a collaborative wiki project.

The list is not a complete list of all US airports with commercial service. I don't know how many are not on there, but I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

That is not anywhere close to a complete list. The primary airports in the US and its territories number 381, and there are a 121 non-primary commercial service airports. That list of current airports with the AIT machines and those slated to receive them is a mere 121. No majority by any means.

The airlines have cut and cut and cut flights to keep load factors up.

No. The airlines have cut capacity recently to deal with high fuel costs and to keep revenues afloat. High load factors do not necessarily correspond to high revenues.

 

[JoeBas]

That is not anywhere close to a complete list. The primary airports in the US and its territories number 381, and there are a 121 non-primary commercial service airports. That list of current airports with the AIT machines and those slated to receive them is a mere 121. No majority by any means.

Like I said, the list may not be complete, but it's the most extensive I've been able to find. And again, just because an airport isn't there doesn't mean that it's AIT-free, or even has regularly scheduled commercial service.

You have to admit that the vast, vast, vast majority of air passengers are passing through airports that have AIT. C'mon.

The airlines have cut and cut and cut flights to keep load factors up.

No. The airlines have cut capacity recently to deal with high fuel costs and to keep revenues afloat. High load factors do not necessarily correspond to high revenues.

I never said they did correspond to high revenues. I said they've cut capacity, and that the outcome of this has been relatively high load factors on fewer flights, meaning still a net reduction in the number of travelers despite planes that remain fairly full. Of course fuel costs factor in pretty large on this, and that's what I was getting to - they're cutting flights to keep from flying empty planes and wasting fuel.

 

[BobWeaver]

You have to admit that the vast, vast, vast majority of air passengers are passing through airports that have AIT.

True statement. Upwards of 90% when I ran the numbers.

 

[Anderson]

You have to admit that the vast, vast, vast majority of air passengers are passing through airports that have AIT.

True statement. Upwards of 90% when I ran the numbers.

This makes sense, number-wise, to me...I think if you take something like the top 20 airports in the US, you get about half of the boardings and alightings between them, while you have probably 100-150 with <100,000/year (and a substantial chunk with <50,000 a year).

By the way, I'd assume that the list you gave was a list of those above a certain ridership cutoff...and I believe that the "B" airports are generally smaller than the "A" airports (PHF has less traffic than RIC IIRC, though I can't recall where ORF is on the ridership list...I think it's still ahead of PHF [and about to get much further ahead], but I haven't seen the comparative numbers in quite a while.

 

[dlagrua]

I find the unreasonable search of innocent people by the TSA Blueshirts a deplorable depravation of ones civil and constitutional rights. I won't fly because of it. I refuse to be humiliated, degraded and lowered to the level of an animal for doing nothing wrong. However I do find the sniffing dogs at the rail terminals acceptable as it's not unreasonable and not intrusive. I like dogs far better than the human garbage at the airports that gropes grandmothers and cripples.

 

[jis]

You have to admit that the vast, vast, vast majority of air passengers are passing through airports that have AIT.

True statement. Upwards of 90% when I ran the numbers.

But that does not imply that a vast majority of passengers are actually going through an AIT checkpoint, since many airports that have AIT also have many more magnetometer equipped security lanes than they have AIT equipped ones.

 

[BobWeaver]

You have to admit that the vast, vast, vast majority of air passengers are passing through airports that have AIT.

True statement. Upwards of 90% when I ran the numbers.

But that does not imply that a vast majority of passengers are actually going through an AIT checkpoint, since many airports that have AIT also have many more magnetometer equipped security lanes than they have AIT equipped ones.

I wasn't trying to imply that. Your point is valid.

 

[Upper berth]

My bride and I each have two metal joints and I keep up with how other such people are treated by the TSA. Until there's a massive injection of common sense there, we're 100% train riders. The slogan says Delta is ready when you are, but so is Amtrak- and you can leave your shoes on.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My bride and I each have two metal joints and I keep up with how other such people are treated by the TSA. Until there's a massive injection of common sense there, we're 100% train riders. The slogan says Delta is ready when you are, but so is Amtrak- and you can leave your shoes on.

What's to stop those same bogus tactics from following you to the train some day? If Amtrak is ready when I am, then how come I need to be ready at 2:45AM? :lol:

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

The majority of airports (with the exception of course being the more major airports) still use walk through metal detectors, not the advanced imaging scanners. I fly about 6-8 times per year out of all different sized airports. This makes me wonder how long it's been since you've flown.

Just as a data point.... Newark, which is one of the busier major airports has just a few millimeter wave scanners. Most checkpoints are still metal detectors. Actually I don't see a problem with the millimeter scanners with the updated software that just displays a schematic of the body surface and not the actual body on the image display. The process is quite painless, even for those that have metal implants. You just have to be more careful about emptying out all your pockets, since anything in pocket will appear as an anomaly.

This was the case as of last week.

mm wave is FAR more safe then Xrays ........ I am OK with it !!!

and ban me if you must but I was sexuality assaulted when I was young ... Lets just say I have a VERY hard time with pat-downs ..

 

[Phil S]

It's not just TSA that drove me back to Amtrak, at least domestically. It's the whole airline/airport cluster%$%#. Long lines at check-in unless you fly first class, and even then it can take forever as scanners break down and printers don't work. Then, ignoring the TSA idiocy, you get to walk miles to get to your departure gate, then sit and listen to TV screens blaring the so-called news from our mainstream media (my personal definition of obscenity). Then the boarding process - enough said. Next you get to sit with someone's seatback in your face. You get a window seat because you'd rather look at the geology and geography than some stupid movie. But the window is so scratched you can't see a thing. In addition, the lead FA has just spent 15 minutes reading advertisements to the entire plane, with the volume cranked up even louder than it was for the safety video.Eventually you land, early because the schedules have been padded out so much. But there's no gate open so you sit for a half-hour. Then there's no one available to work the jetway. Another 10 minutes. But the airlines record this as "on time" or "early" based on wheels-down, rather than last pax off the plane. Next you discover your connecting flight has been cancelled. After much pushy interrogation, you discover it's because of mechanical problems with the plane, no replacement available. You check out the service counter to try to get rebooked but there's a hundred foot line (200 if you count feet). So being an experienced traveler, you keep asking people working gates until you get a number to call for help. On hold for 10 minutes, but at least you can sit an read a book while you wait. They book you on a flight the following day, and give you a number to call to get cut-rate hotel room. One day later you arrive at your destination. Need I go on? Three flights ago, flying first class. I had the lead flight attendant put her arms around me and cry her head off -- "how do you think we feel?" was the gist of her response to what I thought was a very simple question.

Oh yeah, another 1/2 hr to 45 minutes waiting for the wheelie bag to show up, a bag that I just roll right onto the sleeper.

Yes, I'm not surprised Amtrak ridership is increasing, despite all the problems. Railfares in some case are actually lower than airline. It takes at worst no more time for trips up to say 200 miles. It's fun, especially if you're traveling with kids and have raised them so they're well behaved. You can wander around all you want. Employees actually enjoy their jobs. So, no, it's not just TSA.

Just one person's take on this but echoed in a lot of what I hear from other people. Rant over. Thanks for listening.

 

[PRR 60]

...But there's no gate open so you sit for a half-hour. Then there's no one available to work the jetway. Another 10 minutes. But the airlines record this as "on time" or "early" based on wheels-down, rather than last pax off the plane.

...

One correction. The official arrival time for on-time determination is at the gate, door open.

 

[ParrotRob]

1334630623[/url]' post='361442']It's not just TSA that drove me back to Amtrak, at least domestically. It's the whole airline/airport cluster%$%#. Long lines at check-in unless you fly first class, and even then it can take forever as scanners break down and printers don't work. Then, ignoring the TSA idiocy, you get to walk miles to get to your departure gate, then sit and listen to TV screens blaring the so-called news from our mainstream media (my personal definition of obscenity). Then the boarding process - enough said. Next you get to sit with someone's seatback in your face. You get a window seat because you'd rather look at the geology and geography than some stupid movie. But the window is so scratched you can't see a thing. In addition, the lead FA has just spent 15 minutes reading advertisements to the entire plane, with the volume cranked up even louder than it was for the safety video.Eventually you land, early because the schedules have been padded out so much. But there's no gate open so you sit for a half-hour. Then there's no one available to work the jetway. Another 10 minutes. But the airlines record this as "on time" or "early" based on wheels-down, rather than last pax off the plane. Next you discover your connecting flight has been cancelled. After much pushy interrogation, you discover it's because of mechanical problems with the plane, no replacement available. You check out the service counter to try to get rebooked but there's a hundred foot line (200 if you count feet). So being an experienced traveler, you keep asking people working gates until you get a number to call for help. On hold for 10 minutes, but at least you can sit an read a book while you wait. They book you on a flight the following day, and give you a number to call to get cut-rate hotel room. One day later you arrive at your destination. Need I go on? Three flights ago, flying first class. I had the lead flight attendant put her arms around me and cry her head off -- "how do you think we feel?" was the gist of her response to what I thought was a very simple question.

Oh yeah, another 1/2 hr to 45 minutes waiting for the wheelie bag to show up, a bag that I just roll right onto the sleeper.

Yes, I'm not surprised Amtrak ridership is increasing, despite all the problems. Railfares in some case are actually lower than airline. It takes at worst no more time for trips up to say 200 miles. It's fun, especially if you're traveling with kids and have raised them so they're well behaved. You can wander around all you want. Employees actually enjoy their jobs. So, no, it's not just TSA.

Just one person's take on this but echoed in a lot of what I hear from other people. Rant over. Thanks for listening.

Seriously? For me it's usually more like this. Choose a window seat in the back of the plane nd check in a day head of time like you're supposed to. Avoid the check in lines altogether by dropping your bag at the curb because you've already per-paid bag fees (or are flying southwest) and go straight to the security line. Sail through, because you've responsibly packed, and you're at the get 15 minutes later. Kill the time away from annoying people and tv's by sitting at an empty gate or in a br reading a nice book. Get on the pone early because you're in the back and checked in ahead of time next to your window that is every bit as clean as an Amtrak coach. Enjoy on time performance that exceeds those of trains (check it). Six hours later you're on the other side of the country, no problem, all because you're a smart traveller. But then again, maybe you're not.

 

[Ryan]

That blame the victim crap is getting real old, Rob.

Being a smart traveller helps, but it can't prevent all of the hassles.

The fact that you've been lucky (or others have been unlucky, whichever way you want to look at it), doesn't change the fact that it's a bad experience for some folks.

 

[ParrotRob]

1334660179[/url]' post='361479']That blame the victim crap is getting real old, Rob.

Being a smart traveller helps, but it can't prevent all of the hassles.

The fact that you've been lucky (or others have been unlucky, whichever way you want to look at it), doesn't change the fact that it's a bad experience for some folks.

No, Ryan, what's getting really old is diatribes like the one above where "Phil" tries to make this sound typical of flying. You and I both know that's bulls*** and is in no way typical of a normal flying experience by an even HALFWAY savvy traveller. Yes, I know he likes to travel by train, we ALL do, that's why we're here. But don't make up utter nonsense or complain about non-existent problems to try to make a point. I mean really - if you're trying to make the "train versus plane" argument, choosing things like on time performance, missed connections and dirty windows is hardly the way to do it, now is it?

Edit: and anyone who complains about airline service counters should try checking a bag at Union Station WAS and let us know how that works out for ya.

 

[ParrotRob]

All I'm saying, Ryan, is be honest. If you want to compare, then compare a TYPICAL Amtrak experience to a TYPICAL airline experience. No, the airline experience is not perfect, but every single day THESE boards are littered with complaints about attendants, trains that are HOURS late, trains hitting vehicles, running over pedestrians, day-long layovers in NYP or CHI, filthy bathrooms, smoking attendants, the list goes on and on. Are any of these "typical" of the Amtrak experience? Probably not, but neither is Phil's representation of flying.

 

[OBS]

All I'm saying, Ryan, is be honest. If you want to compare, then compare a TYPICAL Amtrak experience to a TYPICAL airline experience. No, the airline experience is not perfect, but every single day THESE boards are littered with complaints about attendants, trains that are HOURS late, trains hitting vehicles, running over pedestrians, day-long layovers in NYP or CHI, filthy bathrooms, smoking attendants, the list goes on and on. Are any of these "typical" of the Amtrak experience? Probably not, but neither is Phil's representation of flying.

I would be willing to bet if you go to Frequent flyer boards, you will find them "littered with complaints" that are equivalent to what we read here...

 

[Phil S]

The couple of times I tried checking bag at curbside, it got lost so I stopped doing it. In any case, on about half my flights I have to go to the counter because I need the bag transfered to a commuter flight, else I'd never make the connection. (And the commuter airline ticket costs about 25% more if you buy it through the long-haul airline, which is the only way to get it into the reservation record.) Turned out that wasn't true this last time as the commuter flight departed over an hour late I do pack quite carefully for TSA, because I have medicines I need to carry, some of which are liquids and I'm allergic to perfumed shampoo and so need to carry a fair bit with me, because it's hard to find in most small towns or 3rd world countries. That game alone is enough to get me onto a train. Occasionally there's a 1st class line for security but I haven't seen one now in over a year. Lines can take up to a half hour, especially if you don't know the airport well and thus don't know the tricks for avoiding the really backed up check-points.

As for the airport noise level, you and I must live on different planets, or maybe my ears just work better than yours.

I pretty much fly first class (non-refundable so it's really pretty cheap) so I get to board even before you. But unless you stand in line before they even call the flight, you have to push your way through a mass of people, none of whom appreciate being asked to step out of the way or shoved.

As for the flight itself, you didn't address the issue of screaming ads and movie previews, and seat backs in your face. (And that's in first class.) And I suspect you don't even interact with the flight attendants who hate their jobs because you're hiding in a window seat at tthe back of the plane and can go 4 hrs between bathroom breaks and stretching.

As for delays and cancellations, here's the summary for the year ending with Feb 2012 http://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/OT_DelayCause1.asp?pn=1 . No way to tell how many of those delays resulted in missed connections. Maybe you're just luckier than I am, or maybe you can walk faster. Or maybe you're able to take only non-stops.

Someone else pointed out that the delay stats are actually based on gate to gate. Ok, though that still sounds like it doesn't account for time spent waiting for a jetway. I do get especially annoyed by the announcements by the flight crew that "Gee folks, we landed 5 minutes early." Then 3/4 hour later you finally start to deplane.

As for my just being a dumber traveler than you, I doubt it. I suspect you live a life in which getting across the country in 10 hrs (counting airport time) is important to you. I don't. And I'm finding more and more people whose expectations and experiences match mine, not yours.

I hope you continue to enjoy air travel but I suspect that in another year or two your attitude will pretty much match mine.

 

[ParrotRob]

1334662525[/url]' post='361487']

1334661811[/url]' post='361483']All I'm saying, Ryan, is be honest. If you want to compare, then compare a TYPICAL Amtrak experience to a TYPICAL airline experience. No, the airline experience is not perfect, but every single day THESE boards are littered with complaints about attendants, trains that are HOURS late, trains hitting vehicles, running over pedestrians, day-long layovers in NYP or CHI, filthy bathrooms, smoking attendants, the list goes on and on. Are any of these "typical" of the Amtrak experience? Probably not, but neither is Phil's representation of flying.

I would be willing to bet if you go to Frequent flyer boards, you will find them littered with complaints that are equivalent to what we read here...

That doesn't make them any more accurate. I get it, your bag got lost once. Big deal, not typical. Your flight was late. Also not typical. The fact is, the reason people complain is BECAUSE they are atypical experiences. I mean let's face it, if air travel was really as bad as Phil's diatribe, then no one would do it, there would be a vast network of high speed intercity rail, and the airlines would be out of business except maybe long haul transoceanic flight. Yet hundreds of millions of people do it every year - even on routes where a train is faster AND cheaper than flying.

Just because you like one thing more does not make the other thing suck. That's a childish argument.

 

[ParrotRob]

The couple of times I tried checking bag at curbside, it got lost so I stopped doing it. In any case, on about half my flights I have to go to the counter because I need the bag transfered to a commuter flight, else I'd never make the connection. (And the commuter airline ticket costs about 25% more if you buy it through the long-haul airline, which is the only way to get it into the reservation record.) Turned out that wasn't true this last time as the commuter flight departed over an hour late I do pack quite carefully for TSA, because I have medicines I need to carry, some of which are liquids and I'm allergic to perfumed shampoo and so need to carry a fair bit with me, because it's hard to find in most small towns or 3rd world countries. That game alone is enough to get me onto a train. Occasionally there's a 1st class line for security but I haven't seen one now in over a year. Lines can take up to a half hour, especially if you don't know the airport well and thus don't know the tricks for avoiding the really backed up check-points.

As for the airport noise level, you and I must live on different planets, or maybe my ears just work better than yours.

I pretty much fly first class (non-refundable so it's really pretty cheap) so I get to board even before you. But unless you stand in line before they even call the flight, you have to push your way through a mass of people, none of whom appreciate being asked to step out of the way or shoved.

As for the flight itself, you didn't address the issue of screaming ads and movie previews, and seat backs in your face. (And that's in first class.) And I suspect you don't even interact with the flight attendants who hate their jobs because you're hiding in a window seat at tthe back of the plane and can go 4 hrs between bathroom breaks and stretching.

As for delays and cancellations, here's the summary for the year ending with Feb 2012 http://www.transtats...Cause1.asp?pn=1 . No way to tell how many of those delays resulted in missed connections. Maybe you're just luckier than I am, or maybe you can walk faster. Or maybe you're able to take only non-stops.

Someone else pointed out that the delay stats are actually based on gate to gate. Ok, though that still sounds like it doesn't account for time spent waiting for a jetway. I do get especially annoyed by the announcements by the flight crew that "Gee folks, we landed 5 minutes early." Then 3/4 hour later you finally start to deplane.

As for my just being a dumber traveler than you, I doubt it. I suspect you live a life in which getting across the country in 10 hrs (counting airport time) is important to you. I don't. And I'm finding more and more people whose expectations and experiences match mine, not yours.

I hope you continue to enjoy air travel but I suspect that in another year or two your attitude will pretty much match mine.

1) If you've lost bags a "couple of times" I strongly suggest you play the lottery, really. WIth odds like that, you're obviously blessed.

2) The curbside baggage handlers have the exact same baggage check capabilities as the counter, and that includes commuter flights, and even transfer between airlines. No need to go to the counter.

3) Not sure what airline you're flying, but the only ads I am subjected to on the plane are the ones in the in-flight magazine and SOMETIMES the one at the beginning of the flight welcoming the frequent fliers and imploring those who aren't to beccome one and get the MasterCard or whatever. Not what I'd call "screaming ads".

4) Someone else did not point out that time is measured gate-to-gate. If you read the post, you'd see it said "DOOR OPEN". I don't know of any airlines that open the door while waiting for a jetway to pad on time performance. If you're waiting for a jetway, it's late.

Finally, no, getting across the country in 10 hours is not important to me. Having honest, truthful debate, however, is. I've flown probably 5 million miles in the last 15 years or so, and I've had a misdirected bag exactly TWICE, and have missed connections resulting in next-day arrival exactly ONCE. It's just not as prevalent as you pretend it is, or else you're doing something really, really wrong.

 

[Ryan]

No, Ryan, what's getting really old is diatribes like the one above where "Phil" tries to make this sound typical of flying. You and I both know that's bulls*** and is in no way typical of a normal flying experience by an even HALFWAY savvy traveller. Yes, I know he likes to travel by train, we ALL do, that's why we're here. But don't make up utter nonsense or complain about non-existent problems to try to make a point. I mean really - if you're trying to make the "train versus plane" argument, choosing things like on time performance, missed connections and dirty windows is hardly the way to do it, now is it?

Edit: and anyone who complains about airline service counters should try checking a bag at Union Station WAS and let us know how that works out for ya.

Pretending that those experiences don't exist because you haven't personally had them destroys your credibility. Are all flights like the ones described above? Of course not. But saying that they are "non-existant" is just as wrong.

I've checked a bag at WAS on more than one occasion, and it's worked out just fine for me, thanks. I guess by your logic, any problems you've had doing so are a product of you not being a smart traveler.

 

[Ryan]

All I'm saying, Ryan, is be honest. If you want to compare, then compare a TYPICAL Amtrak experience to a TYPICAL airline experience.

Sure, lets do that. I'm going to Atlanta next month, and taking Amtrak.

The TYPICAL airline experience is that I would have to arrive at BWI about 90 minutes before my flight departs. When I arrive at the airport, I'll have already printed my boarding pass, but I'll still have to stand in line to check my bags. Then I have to do stand in another line to go through security. When I get to the front of the line, I'll have to take my shoes off, empty my pockets, take my belt off, take my computer out of my bag, put all my stuff into bins and send them down the chute, go through a scanner of some type and then put everything back together at the other side. Assuming everything goes at it should, I'm at the gate with about an hour to kill before the flight leaves.

Instead, I'll take the train to WAS. I'll arrive 30-40 minutes before the train is scheduled to leave. Since I'm in a bedroom, I'll go straight to the Club Acela. Since I have room for my bags in the bedroom, I won't have to mess with the baggage counter. I'll grab a free drink and relax for about 20 minutes or so. Then the train will be called, and we'll go down to the train. I've never had to take anything out of my bags, partially disrobe, go through a scanner or any type. Looks like the TYPICAL Amtrak experience is head and shoulder better than the TYPICAL Amtrak experience to me.