Keystone Corridor/Pennsylvanian questions and Dual electric Locomotive

[BrianPR3]

I have some questions regarding these routes and about dual power

Where does electrical power end on the keystone corridor, Harrisburg or somewhere else?

Two questions regarding the Pennsylvanian

How do they turn the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh?

also would it be feasable for the pennsylvanian that instead changing from electric to diesel in philly, instead the train comes in with it's electric and then unpluck the electric and reverse the electric and change to diesel in harrisburg (this is where duel electric comes in)

im not saying get rid of diesel in philly keep some to allow for protect and allow more engines to be freed up for more service in DC and everywhere else.

this is where dual electric comes in, would it be feesable for a route like the pennsylvanian to have a DE engine similar to the alp45dp to where engine changes wouldn't be needed and the only change is just recoupling

i also am not saying that amtrak needs to invest in getting more cab cars im think of the current climate where it's hammered by politics

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak has stated that they have no interest in dual modes at this time.

Disappointing, because I'd love to see them used for NEC-south trains. Traveling from Tidewater to BWI, it always seems like such a waste to sit in Washington for 30 minutes when you're so close to home.

Maybe after the ALP-45DP has some more history.

 

[jis]

Maybe after the ALP-45DP has some more history.

The one fly in the ointment is that I have heard very definitively from usually reliable sources at Amtrak NEC engineering that the ALP45DP's mechanical characteristics make it unsuitable for being cleared for anything above 100mph on the NEC. So while some day some dual mode may make it the ALP45-DP appears to be a highly unlikely candidate for that role. Which means that they would never be used on Regional trains of Amtrak.
Meanwhile, it should not take 30 mins to change engines and even Amtrak knows it. However, it may be the case that there is timetable need for providing that kind of padding for operational uncertainties across CSX for trains coming from the south. So just eliminating engine change my not remove that padding stop. Anyway, for now there is nothing along those lines in any equipment plan that i have seen coming from Amtrak. And given that even meeting the dire needs as expressed in the current equipment plans would be hard to meet, I don't see dual modes coming to pass in Amtrak in a long long time.

 

[cirdan]

Maybe after the ALP-45DP has some more history.

The one fly in the ointment is that I have heard very definitively from usually reliable sources at Amtrak NEC engineering that the ALP45DP's mechanical characteristics make it unsuitable for being cleared for anything above 100mph on the NEC. So while some day some dual mode may make it the ALP45-DP appears to be a highly unlikely candidate for that role. Which means that they would never be used on Regional trains of Amtrak.

I would guess that is largely down to the design of the trucks. Surely it wouldn't be rocket science to substitute trucks of a design for higher speed?

 

[jis]

Maybe after the ALP-45DP has some more history.

The one fly in the ointment is that I have heard very definitively from usually reliable sources at Amtrak NEC engineering that the ALP45DP's mechanical characteristics make it unsuitable for being cleared for anything above 100mph on the NEC. So while some day some dual mode may make it the ALP45-DP appears to be a highly unlikely candidate for that role. Which means that they would never be used on Regional trains of Amtrak.

I would guess that is largely down to the design of the trucks. Surely it wouldn't be rocket science to substitute trucks of a design for higher speed?

I don't know the technical details. What I hear is that the issue is the weight per axle and there is no way no how that an engine with such axle load will get approved for 125mph. It will cause too much damage to the track and will raise the cost of maintenance beyond what is acceptable. Recall that this engine is so heavy that in Europe it could not be transported by rail from the factory to the docks to load onto ships. It was transported by road on special tractor trailer trucks. So no European railroad was willing to let it run on their rails at all at any speed.

 

[Nathanael]

Amtrak has stated that they have no interest in dual modes at this time.

When did they say that? Amtrak already runs dual-modes on the Empire Corridor, and is going to need to do so for the forseeable future, unless they electrify with overhead AC line from New York to Albany.

Now that Siemens is providing both the electric ACS-64 *and* the new "corridor" 125 mph diesels, I'm kind of expecting a dual-mode from Siemens. If I were Amtrak, I'd try it out on the Empire Corridor first and if it works then expand it to other uses.

 

[Andrew]

Amtrak has stated that they have no interest in dual modes at this time.

When did they say that? Amtrak already runs dual-modes on the Empire Corridor, and is going to need to do so for the forseeable future, unless they electrify with overhead AC line from New York to Albany.

Now that Siemens is providing both the electric ACS-64 *and* the new "corridor" 125 mph diesels, I'm kind of expecting a dual-mode from Siemens. If I were Amtrak, I'd try it out on the Empire Corridor first and if it works then expand it to other uses.

Such as the Keystone Corridor?

 

[MattW]

Of course the issue before Amtrak then becomes do they go for a catenary dual mode using overhead where available (rather than where required) that has initial limited use on the Empire Corridor, but possible expanded use for other off-corridor trains; or do they go for a third rail dual mode with MNRR's fancy new third rail shoes so it can operate Empire Service trains at reasonable speeds where possible rather than where required on MNRR's third rail. Of course, the latter would probably require electrifying the rest of the Empire Connection to Spuyten Duyvil. Though with MNRR wanting access to Penn Station, this might not be a bad thing, and possibly a way to mitigate some of the expected opposition by not having diesel emissions.

Hrm, interesting question just crossed my mind. When Empire Service trains head to/from Sunnyside yard, do they use the third rail the entire way?

 

[battalion51]

I think the DMs for Empire Service fall into a different category than what the OP was driving at.

The challenge with Philly is that the Harrisburg line lies north of 30th Street Station, and obviously New York does as well. So there is a need to switch ends when coming in from one direction and going out the other. The Keystones now accomplish this by using a cab car and electric combination. Before the catenary was rehabed about 10 years ago they would also go through an engine change at Philly trading a E-60 for a P-42. Sure if there was a workable Dual Mode you could use a Cab Car on this train and just need to switch ends at Philly instead of doing a power change.

As far as Pittsburgh goes there is a wye somewhere near the station that they use to turn the train each night, as is the case in other places like Savannah, Lynchburg, Newport News, Springfield, St. Albans, Norfolk, etc. In most (if not all) of these places the road crew will turn their set before they turn it over to Mechanical for the night. This way when they come back to work (or the next crew comes to work in some places) they can get on the train and go and not have to run the wye.

In reality most power changes can be done pretty quickly when you have the station set up well, Mechanical there to do cables, and crews that know what they're doing to make the cuts/couples. Most of the time extra time is added to get slotting right on the corridor versus the next host railroad, and for padding purposes.

 

[Acela150]

I have some questions regarding these routes and about dual power

Where does electrical power end on the keystone corridor, Harrisburg or somewhere else? Just west of Harris Tower.

Two questions regarding the Pennsylvanian

How do they turn the Pennsylvanian in Pittsburgh? They wye the train just west of PGH.

also would it be feasable for the pennsylvanian that instead changing from electric to diesel in philly, instead the train comes in with it's electric and then unpluck the electric and reverse the electric and change to diesel in harrisburg (this is where duel electric comes in) No.

 

[AlanB]

Of course the issue before Amtrak then becomes do they go for a catenary dual mode using overhead where available (rather than where required) that has initial limited use on the Empire Corridor, but possible expanded use for other off-corridor trains; or do they go for a third rail dual mode with MNRR's fancy new third rail shoes so it can operate Empire Service trains at reasonable speeds where possible rather than where required on MNRR's third rail. Of course, the latter would probably require electrifying the rest of the Empire Connection to Spuyten Duyvil. Though with MNRR wanting access to Penn Station, this might not be a bad thing, and possibly a way to mitigate some of the expected opposition by not having diesel emissions.

I'm not quite sure why a catenary dual mode would be of "limited use" for the Empire connection. The Empire Connection Tunnel has both catenary and third rail in the tunnel. So it really wouldn't matter if Amtrak's next dual mode acquisition were a third rail capable or a catenary capable engine.

As for Metro North's new fancy shoes, they came up with them so that they can send their current dual mode engines into NYP where all third rail is of the LIRR's over-running type, as opposed to MN's under-running type. This will permit them to send their dual modes to either GCT or NYP without worrying about which engine has which type of shoe.

Hrm, interesting question just crossed my mind. When Empire Service trains head to/from Sunnyside yard, do they use the third rail the entire way?

Yes, they're on third rail power from basically the moment they pop out of the Empire Connection Tunnel until they reach Queens.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

As far as Pittsburgh goes there is a wye somewhere near the station that they use to turn the train each night, as is the case in other places like Savannah, Lynchburg, Newport News, Springfield, St. Albans, Norfolk, etc. In most (if not all) of these places the road crew will turn their set before they turn it over to Mechanical for the night. This way when they come back to work (or the next crew comes to work in some places) they can get on the train and go and not have to run the wye.

Just east of downtown at what is locally called the Highland Park Wye. I have no idea if that's its real name.

http://goo.gl/maps/ak2I3 Here.

It's turned sometime between it's arrival (well obviously) and the westbound Capitol Limited arrival. The locomotive is always pointing east when the Capitol Limited pulls in.

 

[MattW]

Of course the issue before Amtrak then becomes do they go for a catenary dual mode using overhead where available (rather than where required) that has initial limited use on the Empire Corridor, but possible expanded use for other off-corridor trains; or do they go for a third rail dual mode with MNRR's fancy new third rail shoes so it can operate Empire Service trains at reasonable speeds where possible rather than where required on MNRR's third rail. Of course, the latter would probably require electrifying the rest of the Empire Connection to Spuyten Duyvil. Though with MNRR wanting access to Penn Station, this might not be a bad thing, and possibly a way to mitigate some of the expected opposition by not having diesel emissions.

I'm not quite sure why a catenary dual mode would be of "limited use" for the Empire connection. The Empire Connection Tunnel has both catenary and third rail in the tunnel. So it really wouldn't matter if Amtrak's next dual mode acquisition were a third rail capable or a catenary capable engine.

As for Metro North's new fancy shoes, they came up with them so that they can send their current dual mode engines into NYP where all third rail is of the LIRR's over-running type, as opposed to MN's under-running type. This will permit them to send their dual modes to either GCT or NYP without worrying about which engine has which type of shoe.

Hrm, interesting question just crossed my mind. When Empire Service trains head to/from Sunnyside yard, do they use the third rail the entire way?

Yes, they're on third rail power from basically the moment they pop out of the Empire Connection Tunnel until they reach Queens.

I guess I meant that the dual mode would have a more limited run under power if it was a Catenary unit for Empire trains simply because the usable electrification would only be a small part of the total route for Empire trains vs. NEC trains which run under catenary for a significant portion of their trip. So from a perspective of Amtrak using a dual mode for the Empire trains on a "trial" basis it provides a more limited opportunity versus say the Pennsylvanian. What I meant by MNRR's fancy shoes (sorry, that sounds snarky in afterthought doesn't it? It wasn't intended to be) is that at least in theory, if Amtrak chose to stick with the third rail option then if they used the dual-system shoes, they could use MNRR's power system all the way to Croton Harmon. I'm sure it has its problems however that those far more experienced than I can talk about. Sorry, I'm not making very clear postings tonight for some reason!

 

[Jeremy]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

 

[cirdan]

I don't know the technical details. What I hear is that the issue is the weight per axle and there is no way no how that an engine with such axle load will get approved for 125mph. It will cause too much damage to the track and will raise the cost of maintenance beyond what is acceptable. Recall that this engine is so heavy that in Europe it could not be transported by rail from the factory to the docks to load onto ships. It was transported by road on special tractor trailer trucks. So no European railroad was willing to let it run on their rails at all at any speed.

I wasn't aware of that detail. Of course the weight can be a problem that prevents developemnt of a higher speed version.

Concerning the move in Germany though, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that no European railroad was willing to let the locomotive move on their tracks at any speed.

It may also be down to clearances, or just the sheer burocracy of organizing special moves on the railroad. Road transporters on the other hand are extremely flexible and will offer highly competitive prices, even at very short notice. It's not uncommon for European railroads to move even their own locomotives and rolling stock by road when they are new. This is especially common in the UK

 

[Passenger]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Wow. Much thanks for taking the time to post here! Great answer.

 

[jis]

....

Concerning the move in Germany though, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that no European railroad was willing to let the locomotive move on their tracks at any speed.

It may also be down to clearances, or just the sheer burocracy of organizing special moves on the railroad. ....

Clearance was not a problem since these guys fit in Penn Station. They are well within UIC loading gauge. DB specifically quoted the axle loading as the reason for their decision.

BTW Amtrak has not made any blanket statement about opposing the use of dual modes. But they have made it quite clear that they are not interested in the ALP45-DP

 

[Barciur]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Interesting.. so what happens if the train is 45-60 min late? it's not totally uncommon.

 

[Trogdor]

also would it be feasable for the pennsylvanian that instead changing from electric to diesel in philly, instead the train comes in with it's electric and then unpluck the electric and reverse the electric and change to diesel in harrisburg (this is where duel electric comes in)

Since the train has to change directions in PHL anyway, it's so much easier to just swap engines there. The time it would take to run the engine around from one end of the train to the other would just increase the dwell in Philadelphia, for no real benefit.

 

[AlanB]

I guess I meant that the dual mode would have a more limited run under power if it was a Catenary unit for Empire trains simply because the usable electrification would only be a small part of the total route for Empire trains vs. NEC trains which run under catenary for a significant portion of their trip. So from a perspective of Amtrak using a dual mode for the Empire trains on a "trial" basis it provides a more limited opportunity versus say the Pennsylvanian.

Ok, I follow that.

What I meant by MNRR's fancy shoes (sorry, that sounds snarky in afterthought doesn't it? It wasn't intended to be) is that at least in theory, if Amtrak chose to stick with the third rail option then if they used the dual-system shoes, they could use MNRR's power system all the way to Croton Harmon. I'm sure it has its problems however that those far more experienced than I can talk about. Sorry, I'm not making very clear postings tonight for some reason!

I can't imagine why Amtrak would ever want to do that. First, there is no logical reason for Amtrak to leave the yard and run on LIRR third rail until they clear the Empire tunnel; switch on the diesel to run up to Spuyten Duyvil; then move to MN's third rail; only to flip the diesel motor back on at Croton-Harmon.

Second, at least with the current P32's, my understanding is that they are limited in just how much traction effort they can put out while running on third rail. In other words, they can't reach top speed running on third rail power. I'm not even sure if they could get up to MN's 70 MPH speed limit when running on third rail.

Unlike MU's where you have multiple cars all pulling power from the third rail; a P32 must pull all the power it needs to move and supply HEP through just 2 shoes.

 

[AlanB]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Interesting.. so what happens if the train is 45-60 min late? it's not totally uncommon.

And it will get even more interesting when the crew has to start dropping off through cars for the Capitol upon arrival in PGH and picking them back up the next morning as that will increase the amount of time they remain on the job.

 

[railiner]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Just wondering....don't they have yard crews in Harrisburg that could do the engine change, or if not, couldn't the Philly crew have more time available on their shorter turn to do the change? Or does the Philly crew actually come all the way from New York?

 

[Barciur]

I'm a conductor on trains 42/43. I take the Pennsylvanian from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. I think I can answer both questions. The place we wye the train is the valley industrial tracks about 5 miles away from the station in Homewood/east liberty. the reason they change the engines in philly and not harrisburg is because when we get on in Harrisburg we have to make the 5.5 hour trip, and then when we get to Pitt there is no yard crews so it is our responsibility to wye the train. that usually takes about an hour if Norfolk Southern doesn't hold us out for freight. so by the time we get back to the station and mark off we have just enough time as per FRA hours of service to get to the hotel and get 8 hours of rest before coming back for the 7:30am departure of train 42 back to NYC. if the engines were switched in Harrisburg and we also had to wye in Pitt then we would most likely not get proper rest for our train back in the morning.

Interesting.. so what happens if the train is 45-60 min late? it's not totally uncommon.

And it will get even more interesting when the crew has to start dropping off through cars for the Capitol upon arrival in PGH and picking them back up the next morning as that will increase the amount of time they remain on the job.

I've always been hearing about that - is that something that's going to happen any time soon or just one of the thoughts that "it would make sense and it might happen but no immediate plans?"

 

[AlanB]

And it will get even more interesting when the crew has to start dropping off through cars for the Capitol upon arrival in PGH and picking them back up the next morning as that will increase the amount of time they remain on the job.

I've always been hearing about that - is that something that's going to happen any time soon or just one of the thoughts that "it would make sense and it might happen but no immediate plans?"

AFAIK, Amtrak is currently waiting on NS to complete some switch & track work; before they can even consider starting the service. And a through sleeper will most likely have to wait until the bulk of the 25 new Viewliner II sleepers are operational.

 

[MattW]

I guess I meant that the dual mode would have a more limited run under power if it was a Catenary unit for Empire trains simply because the usable electrification would only be a small part of the total route for Empire trains vs. NEC trains which run under catenary for a significant portion of their trip. So from a perspective of Amtrak using a dual mode for the Empire trains on a "trial" basis it provides a more limited opportunity versus say the Pennsylvanian.

Ok, I follow that.

What I meant by MNRR's fancy shoes (sorry, that sounds snarky in afterthought doesn't it? It wasn't intended to be) is that at least in theory, if Amtrak chose to stick with the third rail option then if they used the dual-system shoes, they could use MNRR's power system all the way to Croton Harmon. I'm sure it has its problems however that those far more experienced than I can talk about. Sorry, I'm not making very clear postings tonight for some reason!

I can't imagine why Amtrak would ever want to do that. First, there is no logical reason for Amtrak to leave the yard and run on LIRR third rail until they clear the Empire tunnel; switch on the diesel to run up to Spuyten Duyvil; then move to MN's third rail; only to flip the diesel motor back on at Croton-Harmon.

Second, at least with the current P32's, my understanding is that they are limited in just how much traction effort they can put out while running on third rail. In other words, they can't reach top speed running on third rail power. I'm not even sure if they could get up to MN's 70 MPH speed limit when running on third rail.

Unlike MU's where you have multiple cars all pulling power from the third rail; a P32 must pull all the power it needs to move and supply HEP through just 2 shoes.

I wasn't thinking that there would be a long break in the third rail, they would be electric all the way from Penn Station to Croton-Harmon with some transition section of third rail for the MNRR-LIRR type changeover.

Yes, that seems to be the problem with dual modes, either the electric or the diesel is crippled, and one might could make the argument that the ALP-45DP has both crippled So realistically, I guess this isn't all that realistic since Amtrak would need a true dual mode to justify using electric where possible and electrifying the empire connection all the way to its meeting with Metro North. And of course, there's your last point, which is really the only one I had thought about till now.