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Would you "give up" LD travel as it is today for a nationwide network of HSR?


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Oldsmoboi

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Would you "give up" LD travel as it is today for a nationwide network of HSR?

Amtrak is packing trains like the Capitol Ltd. to their sold out point yet still can't make any money on them. Part of the problem is that there is too many man hours that go into running an overnight sleeping train complete with diner car and lounge.

At the same time, switching a route like the Capitol to HRS would negate the need for overnight accommodations and with it all of that payroll overhead. Even at Acela speeds, the 780 mile run could be done in less than 8 hours.

However, there is still a certain romance to overnight travel. Having done many trips on the Cap Ltd overnight myself, the roomette, the food, the lounge car would all be missed.

So what say you? If they build it, would you come or do you prefer the overnight travel as it is today?
 
I think it's a false dichotomy.

A true "nationwide" HSR network would make long-distance train travel more viable. In the example you give, an eight-hour Capitol Limited would enable you to leave at 10 pm, and arrive at your destination at 7 am (given the time change, if traveling eastbound, or 11 pm to 6 am westbound).

It would allow something like Chicago-Florida in 16 to 17 hours, which is approximately the same as the current Capitol Limited to DC.

If you were able to get HSR from Chicago to the West Coast, then two-day trips would become one-day trips.
 
I think it is clearly two different markets. IMHO people who love to ride LD trains aren't in a hurry to get from point A to point B. HSR would serve those who did need to get somewhere on time while freeing up Amtrak to add more sleepers to the LD trains. (in my dream world, anyway).
 
In the world of money losing transportation methods, I don't think you'd get much worse than long distance high speed rail sleeper service.

My guess would be that the lengths of the runs would be shortened substantially. I don't see them duplicating the runs as they are today from end to end. More than likely, Amtrak would go to a more defined hub and spoke system with some of the spokes touching at the end to make mini-hubs (Cleveland would be a prime suspect for this I think)

I think the harsh reality is that there is no way Amtrak could do both over the same route.
 
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This really comparing apples and oranges.

HSR will grow between the major clusters of cities, such as the NEC, around Chicago, in California and in the longer term in Texas and Florida - all of which have clusters of big cities some hundreds of miles apart. In those situations, HSR can be a viable alternative to both driving and air (and to be economically viable, HSR must abstract passengers from both segments). Passengers may accept train trips that are 1 to 2 hours longer than the equivalent flight, taking into account the simpler checkin and less security hassle. So that means trips of maybe 300 or 400 miles are on the radar. Beyond that the economic case gets very thin.

LD trains cover thousands of miles. HSR can never be so fast as to get at the airlines throats on those journeys, and as HSR lines come with a pricetag that scales with the length of line to be built, those are going to have far higher start up costs and comparatively lower revenue streams.

I do however see a risk that uninformed decison makers may seen HSR as an excuse to divert LD funds.

The USA is today probably the premier country for LD trains. Russia, India and China have them too, but apart from that there aren't many left. Most of the European LD routes have been fragemented precisely because of HSR and railways seeking to eliminate in-house competition to their own HSR. Until about 10 years ago there was still a direct train from Paris to Bukarest and a bit before that there was a through sleeper from Lisbon to Vladivostock. All that is history and if you want to do those trips today you'll have to change trains several times (and use plenty of HSR)
 
I don't think HRS will ever come to fruition. It is an expansive boon-doggle.
 
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I don't think it is a false dichotomy at all. Amtrak needs to at least have it's sights set on trying to make money. HSR has a better chance of making money than LD travel does. There is no round trip fare on the Capitol between PGH and CHI for less than $240 in the next 30 days. There are a number of flights between those city pairs for equal or less money. If Amtrak can get away with charging $90 more for a trip that takes 5 hours longer (at minimum) each way, then imagine what they could do with a trip that would match the trip in time, but not have the hassle of the TSA or getting to the airport.

I just did two trips to Chicago and back. One on American Air and one on Amtrak. Total trip time door to door for American was about 5 hours. Chicago is only 460 miles away. Even Acela can cover that distance in 6 hours 40 minutes (same distance as Boston to DC.) but a higher speed high speed service (that doesn't have to contend with WAS or NYP) could do it even faster... negating the need for overnight sleeper service.

As much as I enjoy the overnight service on Amtrak, even with packed trains and mostly high bucket fares, they are still operating at a loss.

About the only place I really see a need for the LD service to continue would be the westbound trains out of Chicago to the west coast. Everything east and south of Chicago, and shorter runs east from California, could be served by HSR.
 
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You make some Valid Points but Trains will ALWAYS Lose Money, ALL forms of Transportation Do! In fact it would require Untold Billions, if not Trillons of Dollars to have a true nationwide HSR System! I think the Posters that mention Large Paired Cities Similar to the NEC with Acela and the Regionals have a Valid Point and I agree with them! :excl:

As for me, Im Retired, don't have to be anywhere by any certain time and ride LD Trains For the Journey! :wub: I Do agree it's getting Pricey but Flexibility in Dates/Times can still get you a great Deal for LD Trips! A mix of both is what is proposed/affordable and what well eventually end up with IMHO!

**If we Elect more Rick Scott/Walker/ T-Pub Types All Bets are Off! :help: :help: :help:
 
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I think our nation can have both HSR and LD service.

As previously mentioned, the HSR can serve larger cities within 200 - 300 miles.

Long Distance trains can operate between longer distance cities.

Depending on the frequency, LD trains could operate on HSR trackage.

I also agree that no form of public transit, when considering a fully

loaded cost, is profitable and requires some form of government funding.
 
This really comparing apples and oranges.

HSR will grow between the major clusters of cities, such as the NEC, around Chicago, in California and in the longer term in Texas and Florida - all of which have clusters of big cities some hundreds of miles apart. In those situations, HSR can be a viable alternative to both driving and air (and to be economically viable, HSR must abstract passengers from both segments). Passengers may accept train trips that are 1 to 2 hours longer than the equivalent flight, taking into account the simpler checkin and less security hassle. So that means trips of maybe 300 or 400 miles are on the radar. Beyond that the economic case gets very thin.

LD trains cover thousands of miles. HSR can never be so fast as to get at the airlines throats on those journeys, and as HSR lines come with a pricetag that scales with the length of line to be built, those are going to have far higher start up costs and comparatively lower revenue streams.

I do however see a risk that uninformed decison makers may seen HSR as an excuse to divert LD funds.

The USA is today probably the premier country for LD trains. Russia, India and China have them too, but apart from that there aren't many left. Most of the European LD routes have been fragemented precisely because of HSR and railways seeking to eliminate in-house competition to their own HSR. Until about 10 years ago there was still a direct train from Paris to Bukarest and a bit before that there was a through sleeper from Lisbon to Vladivostock. All that is history and if you want to do those trips today you'll have to change trains several times (and use plenty of HSR)

In the sense of train operation it is apples and oranges. LD's and HSR corridors fulfil totally different transportation needs.

But in terms of transportation politics this might be the choice the US has to make anyway, as it might not be possible to get funding for both. Even if we leave out operating subsidies at least it is a choice in terms of needed investments to maintain/enhance LD routes or building up new HSR or semi-HSR intercity corridors. Or more concrete, spending the hundres of millions needed for a daily Sunset Limited or maintaining the Raton Pass route, or putting them into corridors like Chicago - St. Louis. It will be hard to get a political coalition to do both.

One thing that will for sure not happen is true HSR from coast to coast. If the huge investments in new ROW has to be warranted, it has to be high volume corridors of a distance, where the train will become the preferred mode of travel for a large part of the market. On transcontinental routes any ever so fast train will still spend far, far longer than a plane, and will only pick up a fraction of the market. There will (and should) never be HSR tracks from Chicago to LA.

In the best of worlds a good number of HSR and enhanced intercity corridors all the way down the east coast, in the Mid West, Florida, Texas and California and maybe a few other places could be combined with a skeletal LD network like today. But it requires political will to keep funding both, both in terms of (large) investments and in therms of operations. Some HSR and intercity routes will be profitable, others not and the LD's probably never.

But if choosing is necessary, good HSR and intercity service in feasible corridors will transport much more passengers much more miles than the LD's and do much more for congestion, energy saving and the environment in general. Even if the choice is painful.

As Cirdan notes this is pretty much the choice Europe has taken - not because the railroad companies saw transcontinental routes as competition to their HSR's though, but simply because they largely are not competitive with any mode of travel, and the political choice has been to focus money and interest on mass transportation in corridors. This has happened also in the countries that has not invested in HSR (like Denmark, where I reside). Part of the reason is also here that the railroads are run on a national level and not by the EU or any other transnational entity, and there is very little pressure to get a train from Copenhagen to Rome, but lots of pressure to get better service on the short distances across the country or to the nearest large cities in neighboring countries, like to Hamburg in North Germany.
 
You make some Valid Points but Trains will ALWAYS Lose Money, ALL forms of Transportation Do! In fact it would require Untold Billions, if not Trillons of Dollars to have a true nationwide HSR System! I think the Posters that mention Large Paired Cities Similar to the NEC with Acela and the Regionals have a Valid Point and I agree with them! :excl:

As for me, Im Retired, don't have to be anywhere by any certain time and ride LD Trains For the Journey! :wub: I Do agree it's getting Pricey but Flexibility in Dates/Times can still get you a great Deal for LD Trips! A mix of both is what is proposed/affordable and what well eventually end up with IMHO!

**If we Elect more Rick Scott/Walker/ T-Pub Types All Bets are Off! :help: :help: :help:
All forms of mass transit require government funding of one sort or another, whether it be direct operating subsidies, capital grants, or below market interest loans. If rates were raised to break even levels or above, many consumers would be priced out of the market.

It is true that the metrics might be improved by reducing levels of service and focusing on major markets. The profitability of phone companies and internet service providers could likewise be improved if service to smaller markets were eliminated.

The public and its elected officials have, to date, decided that it is a priority of government to provided certain minimum levels of service to more rural communities. Small market airport subsidies are not inconsequential. Why is Amtrak LD service not looked at in the same spectre?

There is a material benefit to pursuing a HSR initiative in major markets. Long distance service should not be mutually exclusive.
 
I also do think some of you are short changing the distance the HSR could serve. NYC is 400 miles from me, Boston is further. Would I spend an extra two hours napping on the train to avoid LaGuardia or Logan National and then the schlep into downtown? You betcha! Chicago is worthwhile to me TODAY as an overnight trip (just a quirk of scheduling that makes it work really well for me). Chicago is 460 miles from me.... HSR could make Chicago an easy weekend getaway while avoiding O'Hare or Midway.

It's not just distance... it's the TSA and the wait in the airports that really push things over for me. Even NYC - Chicago isn't out of the cards if they could keep the pace up with very limited stops.
 
There is a material benefit to pursuing a HSR initiative in major markets. Long distance service should not be mutually exclusive.
LD service on the east coast should be scrapped then... and when I say east coast, I mean Boston all the way to Miami.
 
So it's 2:1 in favor of keeping today's tired old LD network as-is instead of upgrading to a nationwide network of high speed trains. I'm honestly surprised by that view. If I could only have one I'd much rather have a nationwide HSR network myself.
 
I don't see why we couldn't have coast to coast HSR. I mean sure, you shouldn't have a train that starts in Washington D.C. then doesn't stop until it reaches Los Angeles, but if you take the Southeast corridor, then link it to the Texas corridors, then link that to Albuquerque (4 hours at 140mph avg.), then Phoenix (3 hours) then L.A. (just under 3 hours), you suddenly have a coast to coast HSR system. I'm not necessarily saying run trains straight through, but why not? Maybe run a few select trains straight through and advertise a stress-free one-seat ride WAS-LAX. Averaging 140 miles per hour, that's a 21 hour trip coast to coast.
 
Kinda hard to make the call. I think it depends on how much time a person has. If they need to get somewhere quicker, the HSR is good. But if I am going on a vacation, then LD is my way to go, I want to enjoy seeing the country going by.

Over sea, do the people use the HSR for vacation or mostly for work?
 
Kinda hard to make the call. I think it depends on how much time a person has. If they need to get somewhere quicker, the HSR is good. But if I am going on a vacation, then LD is my way to go, I want to enjoy seeing the country going by. Over sea, do the people use the HSR for vacation or mostly for work?
That's like asking if Americans use planes for vacation or work. They use them for both. HSR doesn't go everywhere, there are lines that are still slower speeds. Just like there are a routes that use smaller and slower planes. Slower trains also cost less and if you string a bunch of slow trains together you can save a lot of money in exchange for all the time and inconvenience. However, regardless of the route taken they don't have to tell whoever they're meeting that they'll arrive sometime "between midnight and noon" like I sometimes have to say when riding Amtrak.
 
I think our nation can have both HSR and LD service.

As previously mentioned, the HSR can serve larger cities within 200 - 300 miles.

Long Distance trains can operate between longer distance cities.

Depending on the frequency, LD trains could operate on HSR trackage.
I agree. However, I would not limit it to 200 to 300 miles only. That is so 20th Century! :) Consider this .... (specially in the context of Shanghai) :) Beijing to Shanghai is roughly the same distance as New York to Chicago. The new HSR service takes a bit longer than four and a half hours. If there were hourly, or even every other hourly service from New York to Chicago in 4.5 hours with stops in several larger population centers on the way, what do you suppose that will do to the air share of the O/D market? And one could even run a nice slow pokey sleeper train at night, for those that want to use the train as a hotel.

I would place the viability of an HSR corridor at around 1000 miles in this century. Now consider how many corridors start making sense. Also consider what it does to the travel markets to the en-route population centers, both between pairs of them, and between them and the end points of that HSR corridor.

If that were to happen, and I am not saying that it will or will not, then that will obsolete many of the shorter LD routes of today. This has already happened in spades in Europe and Japan. So let us not kid ourselves that it will be any different here.
 
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I don't think it is a false dichotomy at all. Amtrak needs to at least have it's sights set on trying to make money. HSR has a better chance of making money than LD travel does. There is no round trip fare on the Capitol between PGH and CHI for less than $240 in the next 30 days. There are a number of flights between those city pairs for equal or less money. If Amtrak can get away with charging $90 more for a trip that takes 5 hours longer (at minimum) each way, then imagine what they could do with a trip that would match the trip in time, but not have the hassle of the TSA or getting to the airport.
And this has what to do with the original question?

I just did two trips to Chicago and back. One on American Air and one on Amtrak. Total trip time door to door for American was about 5 hours. Chicago is only 460 miles away. Even Acela can cover that distance in 6 hours 40 minutes (same distance as Boston to DC.) but a higher speed high speed service (that doesn't have to contend with WAS or NYP) could do it even faster... negating the need for overnight sleeper service.
As much as I enjoy the overnight service on Amtrak, even with packed trains and mostly high bucket fares, they are still operating at a loss.

About the only place I really see a need for the LD service to continue would be the westbound trains out of Chicago to the west coast. Everything east and south of Chicago, and shorter runs east from California, could be served by HSR.
The question you posed was not one of which is more financially viable, but whether one would "give up" one type of service to get another. My position was, and still is, that it's a false choice. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

Overnight sleeper trains can and do work, even in places with high-speed rail.

Such trains would be better financial performers if the network were more robust. For one thing, a more robust network would mean more capacity, so you wouldn't have the limitation of sold-out trains hurting you as much. Secondly, faster trip times means labor cost savings (they are paid hourly, so fewer hours means less pay). Third, more frequent service gives you economies of scale with operating crews, station infrastructure and staffing, etc. The list goes on.

Plus, an expanded passenger-rail network (high speed or not) would bring more people to the rails, making them potentially more likely to consider longer trips.

Stringing along a couple of HSR corridors (and I'm not saying that everything would have to be 220 mph either) and some decent speed non-HSR corridors would enable Chicago-Florida service at Chicago-Washington trip times.

Heck, even Amtrak's trains 66 and 67 do well enough (without a sleeper, due to lack of equipment availability) while operating on the same corridor as the Acela.
 
I don't see why we couldn't have coast to coast HSR. I mean sure, you shouldn't have a train that starts in Washington D.C. then doesn't stop until it reaches Los Angeles, but if you take the Southeast corridor, then link it to the Texas corridors, then link that to Albuquerque (4 hours at 140mph avg.), then Phoenix (3 hours) then L.A. (just under 3 hours), you suddenly have a coast to coast HSR system. I'm not necessarily saying run trains straight through, but why not? Maybe run a few select trains straight through and advertise a stress-free one-seat ride WAS-LAX. Averaging 140 miles per hour, that's a 21 hour trip coast to coast.
Of course you can - it will just be with only a fraction of the market not much bigger than today...

If the tracks were in place all the way such a train would probably be worth running, but there is no way it is feasible to build HSR tracks for a service like that running one or two trains a day. So New York to Atlanta at least and LA to Phoenix should be built for the local corridor service. It would change the local geography economically and be ecologically sound. The problem is Phoenix to San Antonio or Dallas, as Albuquerque and El Paso are the two only places on the way with just a half decent population size. I doubt it is feasible to build HSR here or at least it is very far away. The routes across the lower South is a bit better, with several mediumsized cities, but still lack the big ones. Of course going HSR half the way still speeds things up greatly, but in essence it will be no different from the current LD's, which can only cater to people with plenty of time. It will probably still be loss-making, as the cost structure is much the same.

The point is where to spend your juice - politically, financially and otherwise - and this is where the dictonomy is not false. Drop the speculations and look at the rest of the developed world. It is in high volume corridors of up to about 600 miles where HSR beats flying and driving hands down. On a bit longer routes it still gets a fair market share - New York to Chicago looks worth it as the market is gigantic and getting even 30% of the airline business would be great.

Now there is enough of those corridors that they will form a coherent network in much of the eastern half of the country if built, but the goal is not to get a network that looks nice on a map or can deliver a nice experience to people who like riding trains. It is to get high quality transport to people - millions of people on a daily basis.

If money then still can be squeezed out to keep up an LD network running on the HSR tracks where possible, fine. But it really should be second priority, and if it isn't I fear rail will continue dying its' slow death in America...
 
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About the only place I really see a need for the LD service to continue would be the westbound trains out of Chicago to the west coast. Everything east and south of Chicago, and shorter runs east from California, could be served by HSR.
Having LD trains from CHI to the west coast would seem (to me at least) to contradict the proposed NATIONWIDE HSR idea! But try building a HSR line between DEN and SLC or RNO and SAC!
 
I don't see why we couldn't have coast to coast HSR. I mean sure, you shouldn't have a train that starts in Washington D.C. then doesn't stop until it reaches Los Angeles, but if you take the Southeast corridor, then link it to the Texas corridors, then link that to Albuquerque (4 hours at 140mph avg.), then Phoenix (3 hours) then L.A. (just under 3 hours), you suddenly have a coast to coast HSR system. I'm not necessarily saying run trains straight through, but why not? Maybe run a few select trains straight through and advertise a stress-free one-seat ride WAS-LAX. Averaging 140 miles per hour, that's a 21 hour trip coast to coast.
And there starts the problem.

Either you're going to use a standard high-speed train, ie, one packed with normal coach seats from end to end. Then you're not going for today's mixed LD customer base but more for a high-speed type of greyhound service. Or you're going to try to put the comforts of a current LD train inside a high-speed train, including roomettes, bedrooms, dining car, lounge car - all of which eat away a massive number of coach seats, but are necessary to keep the present day riders seeing it is still a 21 hour journey. As a high-speed train is much more expensive to buy and maintain than a normal train, tickets are going to be much more expensive as well and maybe many present day LD passengers will find themsleves pushed towards air travel.

HSR in the USA will be regional corridors. I don't think there will be a nationwide HSR system for at least another two generations of train technology. For me the question is, can LD survive in some form in the interim or will we see Amtrak gradually fall part into disconnected regional HSR systems with no LD trains between them?
 
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We wouldn't give up LD train travel.

Here in the Northeast we like having the choice of the Northeast Regional, the Acela, and the LD trains.

We take the Northeast Regional and LDs to see this country. The Acela is just too fast for good sightseeing, but is a wonderful commuter option.
 
HSR in the USA will be regional corridors.
Not only that; but connected regional corridors. OK, so you've built your Minnesota-Milwaukee HSR corridor at umpty billion dollars. Where are the people who are going to ride it gonna come from?

Same with a Tampa/Orlando corridor; or a lot of others.

A much more logical HSR corridor to complete would be the Pittsburg-Philadelphia proposal. Part of the line is already electricified from the PRR days; and it would connect with the NEC; meaning more riders, rather than standing alone.

Likewise; pushing the NEC north above Boston to Portland or southwards to Richmond and beyond also make sense.
 
My opinion is the big limiting factor in high speed over long distances is the electrification issue. I read the maximum practical limit of diesel/electric locomotives is about 125 MPH, which I think would be good for runs up to about 1000 miles. If you're going to electrify a line, you need to make back that investment with high frequency usage. One or two trains a day won't cut it.

I'd like to see us just back to the golden era speeds, such as Chicago - New York in 16 hours like the 20th Century Limited could do. (See what happened when they took out the water trenches, and they have to stop for water now!)

If you consider travel time, the airplane is tough to beat for non-stop travel. However the train could have some advantage against the airlines when a connection is needed. For instance, if I took an airline trip from Milwaukee, WI to Springfield, MA, most options require a connection. The flight would take about 5 hours. Need to get to the airport about 1 1/2 hours early. The Hiawatha/Lake Shore is scheduled for 21 hours. So subtract the 6 1/2 for a flight, 8 hours sleeping, about 2 hours eating, and an hour for regular stuff, like showering, you would do at home anyway, and you're only talking 3 1/2 hours of your productive time is taken by using the current train. If they could get it to the old streamliner time, it would actually save productive time. That example only works for an overnight train though.
 
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