Let's Help Amtrak Lose Money

[jis]

Yup. If there is an adverse comment in the IG report on anything, trust me, someone in Congress will use that to micro-manage some more, even if the issue has already been addressed and fixed.

I would encourage people to read the opinion piece titled "America in Decay" by Francis Fukuyama in the September/October issue of Foreign Affairs, which gives a very interesting perspective on the mess we are in (while I may not agree with all of what Fukuyama says, the line of reasoning presented in this piece is certainly cogent). Apparently Amtrak is neither the first nor perhaps the last outfit that has been grossly mis-micromanaged by the Congress. It is indeed one of the things that is pointed out as what is wrong with the way the US is run, relative to many other western countries and even some non-western parliamentary democracies. A much bigger and longer term mess is exemplified by the Forest Service apparently.

Incidentally, you can read this piece online for free if you have not read anything else from Foreign Affairs for free this month (one free article per month without registering). If you wish try to access it at:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141729/francis-fukuyama/america-in-decay

If you believe what is stated in the article then it follows that Amtrak is really not empowered fully to fix its own problems, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise. As long as Amtrak management is fully beholden to Congress for their individual jobs, they will defer to Congress in any critical confrontation. Hence, what Mica says and threatens will tend to hold sway even if he does not necessarily get the votes in Congress, until such clear cut vote happens to dethrone him. Recall McCarthy.

 

[Ryan]

Excellent article, thanks for sharing it. Well worth the registration required and the 40 minutes to read through it.

Sadly, I agree with his conclusion:

The depressing bottom line is that given how self-reinforcing the country’s political malaise is, and how unlikely the prospects for constructive incremental reform are, the decay of American politics will probably continue until some external shock comes along to catalyze a true reform coalition and galvanize it into action.

Let's hope that we can pull ourselves together and the inevitable external shock isn't too painful.

 

[reppin_the_847]

I disagree with the premise of the OP's post, but respect what she's trying to say. I feel like the vouchers should put pressure on Amtrak to try and improve their service. I live in the Midwest (primary trips are between Chicago & the various Michigan cities), and have had numerous voucher-worthy trips. And I have called in religiously and received vouchers. I've taken a few LD trips to NYC & one to FL as well and a couple of those trips have been voucher worthy. I also have the Amtrak credit card.

One time I was staying in Harrisburg (PA) [drove there from MI] and commuting into Philly a couple days via the Keystone using voucher money. These trains literally ran like clockwork and it could be virtually guaranteed that there would not be any excessive delays. If the rest of the country operated a bit more like the NEC and its neighboring areas (ie. Keystone), we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.

 

[Ryan]

Compare the ownership of those tracks to the rest of the country and you'll have your answer.

 

[reppin_the_847]

Compare the ownership of those tracks to the rest of the country and you'll have your answer.

True. Eventually the Michigan Services may be a lot more reliable than it is presently. I also never experienced a problem with the Hiawatha the couple times I have taken that (granted, I took little short hops from Glenview, IL to Chicago, IL in place of the Metra). There are at least a couple rail lines west of the NEC that are pretty reliable.

 

[jis]

Almost all of California Corridors are fine as is the Cascade Corridor. Coming to think of it, in general most serious corridors are fine. It is the LD's that suffer the most.

I don't think paying out all the vouchers in the world is going to fix that problem. but at least it does save some money for a few who were truly inconvenienced, which is not a bad thing. I just don't like it when railfans use their deep knowledge to try to game the system to gyp Amtrak. That is very different from asking for a voucher for a genuine problem.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Almost all of California Corridors are fine as is the Cascade Corridor. Coming to think of it, in general most serious corridors are fine. It is the LD's that suffer the most.

I don't think paying out all the vouchers in the world is going to fix that problem. but at least it does save some money for a few who were truly inconvenienced, which is not a bad thing. I just don't like it when railfans use their deep knowledge to try to game the system to gyp Amtrak. That is very different from asking for a voucher for a genuine problem.

*LIKE*

 

[Anderson]

The only, only time I have asked for a voucher was when Amtrak did not get me to my destination (namely, the SWC not going through to Chicago, resulting in me having to scramble to find a way to connect home; this resulted in an awesome ride on the Cardinal, but it wasn't what I planned on). I've gotten vouchers on two other occasions:
-$50 for a highly annoying, endless breakfast announcement on the Auto Train (unrequested but offered when I called to complain). The gist was that they started saying "If you will be joining us for breakfast" at probably 0630 or 0700 and kept repeating the announcement every few minutes. I did not have any desire for a continental breakfast, but the announcement was cranked up so loud that even when I killed the sound in my room I could still hear it loud and clear.

-$50 for an exceedingly late (7-8 hours IIRC) SW Chief back in 2009/10-ish (unrequested; Amtrak called me to offer the voucher, probably based on the fact that I had a paid ABQ-FLG segment on top of a CHI-ABQ reward, and someone just saw the paid segment).

 

[MrFSS]

The only, only time I have asked for a voucher was when Amtrak did not get me to my destination (namely, the SWC not going through to Chicago, resulting in me having to scramble to find a way to connect home; this resulted in an awesome ride on the Cardinal, but it wasn't what I planned on). I've gotten vouchers on two other occasions:

-$50 for a highly annoying, endless breakfast announcement on the Auto Train (unrequested but offered when I called to complain).

-$50 for an exceedingly late SW Chief back in 2009/10-ish (unrequested; Amtrak called me to offer the voucher).

I've only had two voucher experiences. Both times after completing the mail in questionnaire they sent me vouchers without my ever asking for them.

 

[jis]

Indeed I have never requested a voucher, and nor have I turned down one when offered by Amtrak.

 

[afigg]

Compare the ownership of those tracks to the rest of the country and you'll have your answer.

It is not simply ownership, but capital investment in the corridor to provide the capacity and reliability for the service. We should see marked improvements in the non-NEC corridors over the next 3-4 years that received the larger HSIPR grants, a scattering of TIGER grants combined with state funding. Mainly the Cascades, Surfliner, CHI-STL, CHI-DET, NC Piedmont, the Virginia Regional routes, the NYP-SDY section of the Empire corridor & some modest gains on the western part, NHV-SPG and the Vermonter, the Downeaster. Which is much of the Amtrak system outside of the NEC. The NEC should see improvements in schedule reliability as well, but its capital needs are in the tens of billions for modernization and getting it to a state of good repair.

The segments of the LD train routes that run over those corridors will be more reliable and maybe a little faster, but the rest of the routes will remain at the mercy of the freight railroads to keep them on-schedule. Still, maybe Amtrak will not have to hand out vouchers as often after 2017.

 

[neroden]

Almost all of California Corridors are fine as is the Cascade Corridor. Coming to think of it, in general most serious corridors are fine.

There are major delays on the Michigan corridors. These are *consistently* in the trackage controlled by Class I "freight" railroads -- CN delays trains, NS delays trains, CSX occasionally delays trains (that line seems to be very low-usage), but MDOT & Amtrak don't delay trains.
There have been major delays on the Carbondale corridor (CN).

There have been major delays on the St. Louis corridor (UP).

There have been major delays on the Buffalo corridor (CSX).

There have been major delays on the Carolinian (CSX).

It really does seem to, mostly, come down to ownership. There are some exceptions. BNSF treats all of its corridors well; UP treats the Capitol Corridor and Surfliner (and Metra) pretty well; CP treats the Hiawatha OK; CSX treats the Pere Marquette and the Richmond trains OK; NS treats the Lynchburg and Norfolk trains well; and the shortlines all treat their corridor trains well (I suppose Amtrak is "real money" to them, unlike the attitude of the Class Is).

But the rest of the corridors which run on time run on track controlled by governments or Amtrak. The Class Is seem quite willing to delay corridor trains just as much as they delay long-distance trains.

 

[jis]

Well, that is why I used the word "serious". A single train a day does not make a serious corridor, nor just two IMHO.

Arguably all corridors around Chicago are a mess to some extent though.

But notwithstanding your point is taken.

 

[Ispolkom]

I just don't like it when railfans use their deep knowledge to try to game the system to gyp Amtrak. That is very different from asking for a voucher for a genuine problem.

Other than the dodgy word "gyp," I'm not sure what this sentence means.

I like riding trains. I also have to travel from St. Paul to Minot at least once a month because of my ailing mother. Am I cheating Amtrak if I use Amsnag to ensure I pay as little as possible for my roomette?

When I book AGR travel, am I cheating Amtrak if an agent is willing to book an itinerary that, to me, seems to violate the Rules as Written? Why shouldn't I assume that the Trained Professional I'm talking to knows his job better than me?

Am I cheating Amtrak when I booked a trip WPT-PDX-SAC-DEN, rather than MOT-PDX-SAC-DEN, preferring to travel in coach between Minot and Wolf Point and making the AGR redemption only a one-zone award?

Am I cheating Amtrak when I use AGR points "earned" by repeatedly receiving application bonuses for credit cards?

In thirty-three years of riding Amtrak, I've complained to Customer Relations 4 times, and the results have been so variable that I can't imagine how anyone could game the system. Why was a nonfunctioning toilet in a bedroom from Denver to Winnemucca in 2010 worth $300, while a nonfunctioning toilet in a bedroom from Chicago to Boston in 2013 only rated $100?

Frankly, I find it odd to read moral considerations put into a business arrangement. Amtrak makes the rules, and changes them at will. I just maximize value within the rules that Amtrak itself created and enforces. It's not personal, it's just business. And I'll continue to complain to Customer Relations when something happens that I consider sufficiently egregious. YMMV, of course.

 

[VentureForth]

Do you get AGR points when you pay for travel with a voucher?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Do you get AGR points when you pay for travel with a voucher?

Not for a "goodwill" voucher, only for Refund Vouchers on Paid Trips.

 

[rrdude]

We are supposed to be Amtrak's best customers, yet throughout the forum we advise people who complain about any problem to call Amtrak and get a voucher.

On my last trip, the shower water was cold. The BNSF track was rough and I ended up with a bruise. The SA overslept and there was no coffee in the morning. The rattling sound from the top bunk was annoying.

No big deal, I got home safely and had great SA's. Yet these are some of the very things we are advising people they can get vouchers for. On the trip home I was wondering how many people on the train had their travel partially or completely paid for by Amtrak vouchers.

Maybe we should start reversing this and stop asking for vouchers for Every. Little. Thing. Who knows? It might even help Amtrak in the long run.

It might help Amtrak, a minuscule amount, in the long run, but I used to expect service for what I paid for. I EXPECT warm showers, hot coffee, and attentive service. Camping in a State Park, I might let that slide, paying hundreds, HUNDREDS, of dollars EXTRA for those perks.....DAMN RIGHT I "expect" them, and so should you. YOU are really doing Amtrak a dis'-service for not reporting them

 

[Everydaymatters]

Jerry, I don't feel I did a disservice to the SA. Other than the coffee incident one morning, he was excellent. Excellent with a Capital C. One very minor slip-up really isn't worth a black mark on his record.

As to the rough track, we all know it is a problem with the host RR.

Cold shower - well, that was certainly a wake-up at 4:30 a.m. Could it be that because I was more than likely the first one to shower, the hot water didn't reach there yet? Maybe that would be cause for complaint. I'll concede on that one.

My question to you, or to anyone else who would like to comment, would be; as a SA, what would you do if you overslept and a pax complained at 6 a.m. that the coffee was not ready? that the track was rough? that the water is cold? As an SA, how would you handle that?

It seems that people are just laying in wait for an opportunity to "get" Amtrak for some very minor inconveniences.

 

[tonys96]

Almost all of California Corridors are fine as is the Cascade Corridor. Coming to think of it, in general most serious corridors are fine. It is the LD's that suffer the most.

I don't think paying out all the vouchers in the world is going to fix that problem. but at least it does save some money for a few who were truly inconvenienced, which is not a bad thing. I just don't like it when railfans use their deep knowledge to try to game the system to gyp Amtrak. That is very different from asking for a voucher for a genuine problem.

Better not use the word "gyp" here. You will likely be sent to sensitivity training, or Political Correctness class.

 

[Railroad Bill]

The only voucher we have received in eight years of Amtraking was on our very first trip. We were to travel from Chicago to Portland on the Empire Builder. Wanted to see Glacier National Park in daylight (It was August when we traveled) and enjoy the scenery. The trip started with a two hour delay sitting in the train in CHI while a locomotive had to be switched out because it had no power. Then our restrooms in the entire sleeping car went out west of Milwaukee and they were unable to fix it anywhere along the line. So we had to trek to the nearest coach car to use the restroom for the entire trip. Of course we were out of sync with the freight traffic so we continued to lose time and by the time we reached Montana we were four hours behind schedule. (This is back in the day when the EB was hardly ever late.. Yes, there were days like that..). We went through Glacier in the dark, so that was a real bummer..

Our SCA was embarrassed that our first trip was a bit of a disaster and he recommended we call Amtrak and complain. We did so when we returned home two weeks later and were issued a voucher for over $500. Certainly more than I expected. We praised the SCA, the LSA and the dining car staff for making the trip bearable. Food was very good and the scenery was great and we did enjoy the train ride except for the restroom mess. Coach restrooms are not fun

That has not been the only time we complained about a trip as there have certainly been other bad experiences along the way on over 60,000 miles of Amtrak riding. We do not expect vouchers but would accept them if offered.

But the comments about how these negative experiences affect ridership are valid. A half dozen of my friends who we recommended to ride Amtrak and who had negative experiences, will probably not ride Amtrak again. Poor service, poor OTP, and shoddy equipment do not invite people to do something they basically see as a novelty, not a necessity.

 

[tonys96]

" Poor service, poor OTP, and shoddy equipment do not invite people to do something they basically see as a novelty, not a necessity."

Well said.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Ditto for me Bill!

The Vouchers I've received through the years were for Bustitutions ( ie no Sleeper and No Meals), Downgrades from Bedrooms to Roomette, to Coach from Sleepers and Business Class,a Bad Ordered Diner, 12+ Hour Late Trains and Cancellations of Trains!

Gaming the system to obtain free travel is a matter of Personal Ethics, something that sadly seems to be in short supply now-a-days,

 

[Everydaymatters]

Ditto for me Bill!

The Vouchers I've received through the years were for Bustitutions ( ie no Sleeper and No Meals), Downgrades from Bedrooms to Roomette, to Coach from Sleepers and Business Class,a Bad Ordered Diner, 12+ Hour Late Trains and Cancellations of Trains!

Gaming the system to obtain free travel is a matter of Personal Ethics, something that sadly seems to be in short supply now-a-days,

"Personal Ethics" is the term I have been searching for. Yes. I fully agree.