Long Distance Business Class -- A practical idea?

[KrazyKoala]

They aren't fillinf the upper deck with BC. Its just the lower level which holds 20 or 24... Not sure how many rows there are down there.

 

[Ryan]

If you're talking about the Coast Starlight experiment, right now there are 0 seats in the space.

Superliner coaches have 12 seats on the lower level.

 

[KrazyKoala]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.

Both sound fun actually...

 

[Ted Bell]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.
Both sound fun actually...

Can you do that? I would absolutely bring a sleeping bag. Just to lie flat and sleep. I'm one of those coach passengers who can't afford a roomette (although I must admit, I finally splurged and will be traveling in style for the first time next month).

I don't want or need meals in the diner, complimentary bottles of water or wine and cheese. I don't even mind sleeping next to someone else - coach seats are HUGE compared to airline seats. But I would really love to lie down (flat/horizontal) to sleep.

 

[Ryan]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.

I recommend finding the Coast Starlight Performance Improvement Plan and reading it.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/676/676/PRIIA-section-210-FY-12-performance-improvement-plan-amtrak,0.pdf

Also, you've got the wrong station code for New CaRrollton in your signature.

 

[Ted Bell]

I recommend finding the Coast Starlight Performance Improvement Plan and reading it.

Interesting reading. Thanks for the link. If I understood correctly, they want to apply "Acela-type First Class" to the lower level of the Superliners which are currently used as video game arcades. So my question is this: Does Acela-type First Class accommodate lie-flat seating?

 

[Shortline]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.
Both sound fun actually...

Saw a few people doing just that, in the baggage/coach a few trips go. I had gotten off to take a walk, and boarded back in a coach when it was time, saw a few people stretched out down there in sleeping bags.I'm not keen on sleeping on the floor, but, If they'd let me bring a cot.......

 

[Ryan]

No, it doesn't.

 

[Ted Bell]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.
Both sound fun actually...

Saw a few people doing just that, in the baggage/coach a few trips go. I had gotten off to take a walk, and boarded back in a coach when it was time, saw a few people stretched out down there in sleeping bags.I'm not keen on sleeping on the floor, but, If they'd let me bring a cot.......

Can a superliner passenger actually access the baggage car? I don't know what you mean by baggage/coach.

 

[Ryan]

It's a Superliner coach, but instead of the lower level seating area, it's a baggage storage compartment.

I would think that the door should be locked, I wouldn't want folks wandering in and out of there if my bags were stored there.

 

[Ted Bell]

It's a Superliner coach, but instead of the lower level seating area, it's a baggage storage compartment.
I would think that the door should be locked, I wouldn't want folks wandering in and out of there if my bags were stored there.

I don't think I've been on a Superliner coach with baggage storage in the lower level. Seems to me they have had a minimal amount of seating in the lower level, and a dedicated baggage car between the locomotives and the Transition Dormitory. But I could be wrong, is this common on most Long Distance trains?

 

[jis]

I remember that trains like the Pioneer and Desert Wind typically did not carry a baggage car at all. They just had a Superliner Coach-Baggage Car serve the function of a Baggage Car.

 

[Bus Nut]

In response to Nathanael,

The only way I would see the Slumbercoach come back would be if it were marketed agressively to college students. I can't see any other segment of the population signing up to climb in and out of the things! However, it would still be a low margin service. I think it could compete with Megabus, Boltbus because of the advantage of being horizontal instead of vertical. But other than that you'd need a coach full of overnighters to make it work so it would have to be the right corridor. I suspect that even today most state college students travel only a few hours, which would be day trips.

As long as Amtrak has such a tight congressional fist on their finances they are much better off chasing low-risk, high-return, such as adding sleepers to sold-out overnight trains which will command top dollar. Pleasing more well-heeled retired patrons will help them politically too. They will cede the cheap seats to the bus carriers.

If the economics of air travel do become very discouraging to young people but there is a sufficient youth travel market, there could be a niche for a Slumbercoach-like service down the road. In the meantime, it seems like coach patrons on long-distance are, well, happy to sleep in coach. It's quite comfortable and the same equipment can handle on/off day tripping clients as well, which makes it more efficient.

It looked like Marilyn Monroe was riding in the Slumbercoach to Florida in Some Like It Hot. :lol:

 

[KrazyKoala]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.

I recommend finding the Coast Starlight Performance Improvement Plan and reading it.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/676/676/PRIIA-section-210-FY-12-performance-improvement-plan-amtrak,0.pdf

Also, you've got the wrong station code for New CaRrollton in your signature.

I have read it, and a bit confused on why it has not started yet. The only thing they seemed to have done is remove all the arcade games.

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.
Both sound fun actually...

Saw a few people doing just that, in the baggage/coach a few trips go. I had gotten off to take a walk, and boarded back in a coach when it was time, saw a few people stretched out down there in sleeping bags.I'm not keen on sleeping on the floor, but, If they'd let me bring a cot.......

I was totally kidding, no idea people actually did that. You would think those doors are locked but their really not. Ive even purposely pushed the button to find out if it was locked or not.

 

[reppin_the_847]

I think this is an excellent idea. I know that I would definitely be a fan of such a service level when I don't have the points or discretionary money to spend on a Sleeper.

The desirability of having an accommodation level less expensive than the sleepers, but less crowded and with a better chance of sleep than coach has been raised before here. People have talked about restoring old-style open-section pullmans, European style couchettes, and airline lie-flat business calss seats, and they have all been knocked down for various reasons. However, one of the main objections is that this is a low priority for Amtrak because of the expense and shortage of cars. But I have an idea that might be practical, although at this time, maybe only for the single-level long distance trains.
Amtrak is going to be getting a whole bunch of new viewliner cars, including coaches. This would free up a lot of Amfleet equipment. More will be freed up whenever they start replacing the Amfleets on the NEC. How about taking some of those Amfleets and configuring them as "long distance business class?" I see this as being 2+1 club seating, so the seats are wider than the long distance coach, even if the seat pitch is similar. The service might also include complimentary blankets, pillows, eyeshades and earplugs. And while the fares won't include meals, they could at least include a guarantee for dinner reservations in the diner, (The most annoying thing about my last long-distance coach trip was that I was shut out of dinner reservations.) The club seating would allow the possibility that single travelers wouldn't have to deal with a seatmate. It can be a bot weird having to sleep next to a stranger. Perhpas they could also have retractable curtains, such as in semi-prvate hospital rooms that could be deployed at night to give a bit more privacy. I could see the fares being perhaps 25-50% over coach, given that the car's capacity would be 3/4 that of a similarly configured 2+2 seat Amfleet II coach.

Would this be practical? Would it attract passengers? Think it might interest Amtrak?

 

[SubwayNut]

I've definitely done the pass out across three seats in the lounge car routine. I do it when I'm stuck on aisle seat especially when I'm across the staircase downstairs. I've always been tempted to just choose the floor.

 

[VentureForth]

And I was essentially called crazy when I suggested that perhaps all those folks in Coach on the Auto Train would prefer to sleep horizontally than in a chair. Coach is only popular on the Auto Train because sleeper is too expensive for many travellers.

The only way I would see the Slumbercoach come back would be if it were marketed agressively to college students. I can't see any other segment of the population signing up to climb in and out of the things! However, it would still be a low margin service. I think it could compete with Megabus, Boltbus because of the advantage of being horizontal instead of vertical. But other than that you'd need a coach full of overnighters to make it work so it would have to be the right corridor. I suspect that even today most state college students travel only a few hours, which would be day trips.

As for the above quote, there are MANY college towns that are severely underserved by Amtrak. A targeted campaign would certainly bring many on board. That being said, I am 40 years old, 270 lbs, have a household income in the barely middle-middle class, and I feel that I would be a segment of the population that would LOVE to see the slumbercoach.

 

[Ashland Train Enthusiast]

Most LD trains have a single level baggage car preceding the Superliners. Thinking outside the box, why not a newly designed Superliner baggage car? The lower level, completely empty excepts for utilities. The upper level business class and upper level restroom facilities. This would increase the revenue seating without lengthening the train. The car end closest to the locomotive would have a conventional vestibule and a staircase to upper level. Also access to baggage compartment would be made here also. The opposite end would provide high level access to other cars. However, this would bump transition sleepers to opposite end of the train. What would the additional cost in weight to haul bi-level baggage car vs. single level baggage car? Just a few thoughts.

I think this idea is worth further consideration, as I could see the merit here, in terms of getting dual functionality out of a single car. I'm not sure what the actual baggage load in the LD routes is or what the capacity difference is between the lower level of a Superliner vs. a Heritage/Viewliner baggage car, but if the numbers worked out, this might work. I'm not sure you would want this to be on the head end of the consist, and have the LD Business Class passengers having to walk through the sleepers, but I think it could work anywhere. Perhaps between the diner and the SSL?

~ DCTE

 

[Ashland Train Enthusiast]

yea, the naming scheme needs to be changed.
how about:

standard coach - corridor coach

comfort coach - long distance coach and corridor BC

business class - 2+1 BC

1st class - 1st Acela

sleeper class - sleepers

I think tied in with this is that if LD BC was implemented, there would need to be a standardization of what "Business Class" really is, as many posts here have pointed out that on different trains, the features are completely different. For instance, on the NEC, when I last rode BC (exuding 66 and 67), all it was was curtains on the windows and a bit more space between seats; no service or anything. For some of the mid-distance routes like the Pennsylvanian, Carolinian, and Palmetto, it's the same car (60 seat AFI BC iirc), but in addition, there's a dedicated attendent, and in my experience, at-seat beverage service every several hours. On some other routes like 66/67, the Empire Service, and iirc some of the Chicago Corrider trains, BC is the comfortable 1 x 2 seating with the leather chairs. And then there's Acela Business class, which is different in it's own right.

I'm not sure exactly what the appropriate terminology is, but I think basically that there are 3 or so tiers of service (for seat service, I'm excluding sleepers here, as I think they are a category all to themselves). I think of them less in terms of the name of the service, but rather the type of car/seating used:

2x2 short haul seating (Amfleet I coach)

2x2 greater space seating/footrests/etc (Amfleet II/Amfleet I BC/Acela Business Class)

2x1 seating, more space, tables, etc (ex Metroliner BC/Acela First Class)

If I was to think about an LD business class, I would put it in the came category as the third group there, whatever you'd call that, with similar amenities. Perhaps not full meals covered like with Sleepers, but maybe a complementary drink service (of the alcoholic variety) or something else like that in addition to the seats?

~ DCTE

 

[KrazyKoala]

You could connect the transleeper to the engine, and then the BC, to the coaches, SSL, dinerN then sleeper. I do agree, you take out the shower and bathrooms downstairs there would be just as much room since they only utilize ground space only in the baggage car and not have shelves for some reason.

 

[Nathanael]

Just a big room to run around in? Or bring a sleeping bag and sleep on the floor.

I recommend finding the Coast Starlight Performance Improvement Plan and reading it.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/676/676/PRIIA-section-210-FY-12-performance-improvement-plan-amtrak,0.pdf

Also, you've got the wrong station code for New CaRrollton in your signature.

I have read it, and a bit confused on why it has not started yet. The only thing they seemed to have done is remove all the arcade games.

If you read Amtrak's monthly reports, you'll get a clue why it hasn't started yet. Amtrak has been having trouble finding time to get the Superliners off the road and into the shops to do the retrofits. The Beech Grove shops are therefore running a bit behind. There's a desparate need for spare cars so that cars can get their "shop time".

 

[Nathanael]

I'm not sure exactly what the appropriate terminology is, but I think basically that there are 3 or so tiers of service (for seat service, I'm excluding sleepers here, as I think they are a category all to themselves). I think of them less in terms of the name of the service, but rather the type of car/seating used:
2x2 short haul seating (Amfleet I coach)

2x2 greater space seating/footrests/etc (Amfleet II/Amfleet I BC/Acela Business Class)

2x1 seating, more space, tables, etc (ex Metroliner BC/Acela First Class)

I agree that a clearer naming of service classes would help I'm not sure whether you've described the seat classes fully. The Amfleet II class is definitely designed for sleeping passengers, with an emphasis on footrests and reclining, whle the Acela Business Class and Amfleet I BC are designed for awake passengers.

The sleeper classes are, of course,

- roomette

- bedroom

- family bedroom

- bedroom suite

 

[jis]

Frankly, I don't understand this obsession with standardized class naming and amenities across the Board. Generally transportation companies do not do this. They specialize service toc ater to specific market needs.

For example Business Class on a few hours long daytime flight typically is very different accommodation from Business Class in multi hour, possibly overnight international flights. Even within the US JFK to LAX premium flights have different amenities from the run of the mill domestic flight. So why should Amtrak forego th possibility of catering to local corridor needs oin a focused way just to make everything uniform?

 

[Ispolkom]

The only way I would see the Slumbercoach come back would be if it were marketed agressively to college students. I can't see any other segment of the population signing up to climb in and out of the things! However, it would still be a low margin service. I think it could compete with Megabus, Boltbus because of the advantage of being horizontal instead of vertical. But other than that you'd need a coach full of overnighters to make it work so it would have to be the right corridor. I suspect that even today most state college students travel only a few hours, which would be day trips.

Maybe, but when I was a college student I traveled from Minot to Chicago in Coach on the Empire Builder. That's 20 hours, but I would never have sprung for even a slumbercoach because a) when you're young you can sleep anywhere, and b) I had better uses for that money.

 

[Ashland Train Enthusiast]

Frankly, I don't understand this obsession with standardized class naming and amenities across the Board. Generally transportation companies do not do this. They specialize service toc ater to specific market needs.
For example Business Class on a few hours long daytime flight typically is very different accommodation from Business Class in multi hour, possibly overnight international flights. Even within the US JFK to LAX premium flights have different amenities from the run of the mill domestic flight. So why should Amtrak forego th possibility of catering to local corridor needs oin a focused way just to make everything uniform?

I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to say here, as you first seem to be against standardization across the board, but then refer to an example that is standardized in my opinion too much, calling two different service offerings by the same name, which is exactly what I am advocating getting away from.

I think the difference with Amtrak is that unlike an airline, which his distinct and unique flights and plane configurations between distinct endpoints, with Amtrak, you end up with quite a bit of overlap on routes, so the casual traveler doesn't have that same distinction. I'm not saying that Amtrak should at all forego catering to local corridor needs, but rather to have general standards for specific seat types. A quick search shows that for different routes, airlines like United do have different naming schemes to set the expectations for travelers to expect a different standard.

For example, a traveler going from say NYP to RVR has a variety of options to chose from, from a NER to a Medium-distance train like the Carolinian or Palmetto to an LD, and understand that there are very different accommodations as you mentioned above. As it exists currently, having the catch-all term "business class" to mean a variety of things could lend to false expectations for a traveler who is only used to the 2x1 ex Metroliner seating when they take a different service, as we have seen posted here before.

While I am advocating for a level of uniformity here, it's less about trying to squeeze everything into as few boxes as possible, but rather taking stock of the groupings I stated earlier, and figuring out based on the route served how to categorize the offering to set appropriate expectations to the passengers is all.

~ DCTE