Long Distance Business Class -- A practical idea?

[MARC Rider]

The desirability of having an accommodation level less expensive than the sleepers, but less crowded and with a better chance of sleep than coach has been raised before here. People have talked about restoring old-style open-section pullmans, European style couchettes, and airline lie-flat business calss seats, and they have all been knocked down for various reasons. However, one of the main objections is that this is a low priority for Amtrak because of the expense and shortage of cars. But I have an idea that might be practical, although at this time, maybe only for the single-level long distance trains.

Amtrak is going to be getting a whole bunch of new viewliner cars, including coaches. This would free up a lot of Amfleet equipment. More will be freed up whenever they start replacing the Amfleets on the NEC. How about taking some of those Amfleets and configuring them as "long distance business class?" I see this as being 2+1 club seating, so the seats are wider than the long distance coach, even if the seat pitch is similar. The service might also include complimentary blankets, pillows, eyeshades and earplugs. And while the fares won't include meals, they could at least include a guarantee for dinner reservations in the diner, (The most annoying thing about my last long-distance coach trip was that I was shut out of dinner reservations.) The club seating would allow the possibility that single travelers wouldn't have to deal with a seatmate. It can be a bot weird having to sleep next to a stranger. Perhpas they could also have retractable curtains, such as in semi-prvate hospital rooms that could be deployed at night to give a bit more privacy. I could see the fares being perhaps 25-50% over coach, given that the car's capacity would be 3/4 that of a similarly configured 2+2 seat Amfleet II coach.

Would this be practical? Would it attract passengers? Think it might interest Amtrak?

 

[zephyr17]

There are coaches in the Viewliner II order? I thought it was only baggage, baggage/dorms, sleepers and diners.

 

[AlanB]

There are coaches in the Viewliner II order?

Nope.

I thought it was only baggage, baggage/dorms, sleepers and diners.

Correct!

 

[amamba]

Didn't I read somewhere that they are considering business class on the CS?

 

[KrazyKoala]

Of course this is practical. When you have a base rate for coach, let's say $149. If given the option to upgrade to a sleeper for $439-600 or upgrade to BC for $149. I'd be taking the BC once the sleepers got too high or were sold out for sure.

 

[LWBaxter]

I have wondered whether a recliner angled towards the window would work. I can see 14 fully reclining chairs fitting in the same space as 10 roomette or 28 long distance coach seats. That would make the price about the same as a roomette, assuming about half of the roomettes are single occupancy, and double a coach fare pluss meal costs.

LWB

 

[Ryan]

Didn't I read somewhere that they are considering business class on the CS?

You are correct, it was in the PiP released recently.
IF Amtrak can get the cars, I think that this is an idea that could work - we'll see what happens on the CS.

 

[Shortline]

I could see that being a good thing. I generally don't care for LD coach even during the day, but a BC coach might be just the thing for long day trips. I certainly appreciate it on the Michigan Service trains, and liked the Quiet Car on the Hiawatha almost as much, so much more enjoyable than regular coach, in my opinion. Throw in a privacy curtain, an I might even do an overnight in a pinch.

 

[daveyb99]

How do you match the single level to the superliners. That would take a re-engineer of the car lineup (ie placing business between the transistion and engine).

And ... what extra benefits would you give ... for example, half-price meals?

 

[xyzzy]

There are problems to be overcome. 1. Many LD trains stop at platforms that are shorter than the train. Sometimes those trains already have to spot twice. Spotting three times would be a pain. Likewise there is more confusion of where to board at stations that don't use PAs. 2. Equipment fungibility in the car pool is reduced; a bad-ordered BC car could not be replaced by a non-BC coach, and similarly a bad-ordered non-BC coach could not be replaced by a BC car (assuming the train is sold out or nearly so). 3. From Amtrak's POV, the marginal profitability of sleepers is so high at current prices for accommodation that there is probably more return on investment to keep sleepers positioned as the only upgrade option for LD passengers -- potentially with new sleepers coming online.

 

[rickycourtney]

Amtrak is actually looking into adding Business Class service to the Coast Starlight. It was one of the initiatives listed in the Performance Improvement Plan for the route. Here's a link to the report.

They propose upgrading the lower level seating area on 5 Superliner coaches to have 12 leather seats (2x2 arrangement based upon the Acela Business Class seat.)

Passengers would also get:

• Continued use of the upgraded coach pillow with the addition of a complimentary blanket.
• A Food credit voucher usable in dining car (amount based on length of trip.)
• Invitation to the wine and cheese tasting in the Pacific Parlour Car.
• Access to Pacific Parlour Car Wi-Fi and movie theatre.
• Exclusive access to the seating area with door marked for “Business Class only.”
• Train attendant assigned exclusively to the car. (Would also assist coach passengers upstairs.)

Essentially it's an "upgraded coach" section to attract riders taking a day trip between LA and the bay.

Amtrak estimates it would cost about $283,000 to upgrade the cars, but would bring in an additional $1.49 million in revenue.

They also mention that the section would "allow for the market examination of a future premium coach service on long distance service."


But for overnight travelers I think they should take it a step further and look into buying airline-style "lie-flat" seats (possibly with plastic half walls around each seat for privacy.) It would also be inexpensive to add in a self-service bar similar to what the sleepers and some short-distance routes have (offer coffee, juice, newspapers and fruit.)

I think many travelers would find it to be an attractive alternative to a roomette if the price was right.

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak is currently trying to work out next-gen LD coaches (among other things), but the funding isn't there to place an order. With that said, I keep forgetting how many seats near-lie-flat or lie-flat seats would allow for overnight travel.

Of course, with that said, an upgrade class aimed at day travel on the Viewliner trains (and potentially on some of the other LD trains) might have some real potential...all but one of the Viewliner trains runs through VA, which is swamped with ridership demand, and 3 of the 5 run through NC as well. And of course, there's Florida (which has a lot of intrastate traffic) and the ATL-NOL part of the Crescent...and the LSL does a healthy batch of business in upstate NY, too...

Basically, I think there's a market for this sort of thing alongside more sleeper demand. Whether it's increased day service (the Star could do a healthy run on both ends, as could the Crescent) or an intermediate overnight class, I think there's room. Amtrak just doesn't have the equipment to play with.

 

[Blackwolf]

To answer your topic question with a personal opinion: A mid-tier Business Class option is a very practical idea that would be highly successful.

The only problem is cutting through the dogma of taking the rather minimal investment and risk to implement such a service. There are a lot of nay-sayers who would remark that Amtrak cannot afford this step be it cost of manufacturing new seats/limited rolling stock/the bad-order risk and like-class substitution/etc. I would counter that Amtrak not only has the financial capability of perusing this opportunity, but has plenty of rolling stock available. The biggest obstacle is getting the giant machine that Amtrak's corporate structure into motion.

Fortunately, the wheels are indeed moving on the Coast Starlight experiment, so we have hope on this front.

As such, any expansion of this concept will likely occur on the Superliner-equipped western routes long before any single-level trains see it. However, if it proves to be the boon I expect it to be, when a new (possibly Viewliner-style) single-level coach car order is made, the placing of Business Class LD seats into the brand new cars might be in the bid cost structure.

 

[MikeM]

Personally, I'd love a 2 + 1 seating option in business class, with a wider seat and near-lay flat seating. Having the option of booking a single seat by my lonesome when traveling alone would be a very attractive option for mid-length trips. Putting these on the lower level of existing superliners, as is being proposed on the CS, would gain additional revenue and provide a nice middle step. I doubt other options like open sections would garner the same degree of passenger interest, although it'd be fun to try as a train fan.

 

[VentureForth]

I would love to just see Amtrak be consistent across the board with Business Class. I don't care HOW it looks, but I just want it to be the same in Georgia (Palmetto), North Carolina (Carolinian), NEC Regionals, Pacific Surfliners, and other trains. WILL SOMEONE AT AMTRAK DEFINE BUSINESS CLASS AND THEN SEE TO IT THAT IS IMPLEMENTED WITH CONSISTENCY ACROSS THE SYSTEM?

Please?

 

[Ryan]

The only problem is cutting through the dogma of taking the rather minimal investment and risk to implement such a service. There are a lot of nay-sayers who would remark that Amtrak cannot afford this step be it cost of manufacturing new seats/limited rolling stock/the bad-order risk and like-class substitution/etc. I would counter that Amtrak not only has the financial capability of perusing this opportunity, but has plenty of rolling stock available. The biggest obstacle is getting the giant machine that Amtrak's corporate structure into motion.

Specifically what cars would you take out of service in order to convert them to a BC configuration? Where will the money come from to do the conversion?

 

[MikeM]

The only problem is cutting through the dogma of taking the rather minimal investment and risk to implement such a service. There are a lot of nay-sayers who would remark that Amtrak cannot afford this step be it cost of manufacturing new seats/limited rolling stock/the bad-order risk and like-class substitution/etc. I would counter that Amtrak not only has the financial capability of perusing this opportunity, but has plenty of rolling stock available. The biggest obstacle is getting the giant machine that Amtrak's corporate structure into motion.

Specifically what cars would you take out of service in order to convert them to a BC configuration? Where will the money come from to do the conversion?

Assuming you just convert the lower level of a superliner coach to the BC seating, I don't see where this is a major expense... you'd have to change outlet and lighting spacing, and procure new seats but you're not adding walls, changing the mechanicals of the car, etc. Not nearly as disruptive as creating a different type of sleeper. Not knowing how much new seats would cost, that would be the biggest question. Maybe you could repurpose an existing seat for BC seating, like Amtrak did with Metroliner seating used in current BC cars. But for consistency purposes (and to better justify the increased charge for the seat), it might be worth procuring new seats with the idea that Amtrak could slowly standardize all medium and long haul BC seating to use the new seats, addressing the "mystery meat" phenomena other writers have commented on with inconsistent product on different routes or even the same route. I don't know about everyone, but from my purposes, the typical drawback with coach is not knowing who I'm parked next to, which can be a problem when you're on the train hours longer than you'd be on a plane. Having greater separation, with 2/1 seating would be very attractive to me, even if legroom stayed the same as it is in current coach seating, assuming you could reserve a specific seat in advance.

The holy grail of BC seating in this case would be this: if you could upcharge on the seats to a midway point to a economy sleeper price, it could be an easy way to gain additional revenue with minimal capital. You reduce your capacity by 25% (assuming same number of rows, but wider seating / 2x1 seating), but if you could charge double coach pricing, you come out well ahead. Probably the biggest drawback is that lower level seating is typically used for handicap seating, so you'd have to either maintain a handicap position in the lower level seating area, or provide more than one coach so that there's still disabled seating in the train.

As a side question, does anyone know what the refresh cycle is for superliner coaches? Is there one? I know there is a cycle for mechanical fixes, but given how SII Sleepers are still running in original interior finishes, it makes me wonder if the same is true with coaches.

 

[Ryan]

The only problem is cutting through the dogma of taking the rather minimal investment and risk to implement such a service. There are a lot of nay-sayers who would remark that Amtrak cannot afford this step be it cost of manufacturing new seats/limited rolling stock/the bad-order risk and like-class substitution/etc. I would counter that Amtrak not only has the financial capability of perusing this opportunity, but has plenty of rolling stock available. The biggest obstacle is getting the giant machine that Amtrak's corporate structure into motion.

Specifically what cars would you take out of service in order to convert them to a BC configuration? Where will the money come from to do the conversion?

Assuming you just convert the lower level of a superliner coach to the BC seating, I don't see where this is a major expense...

He seemed to be implying something more than what Amtrak is already doing on the CS.

 

[rickycourtney]

Not knowing how much new seats would cost, that would be the biggest question. Maybe you could repurpose an existing seat for BC seating, like Amtrak did with Metroliner seating used in current BC cars. But for consistency purposes (and to better justify the increased charge for the seat), it might be worth procuring new seats with the idea that Amtrak could slowly standardize all medium and long haul BC seating to use the new seats, addressing the "mystery meat" phenomena other writers have commented on with inconsistent product on different routes or even the same route.

As I mentioned earlier... this is what Amtrak appears to be doing with the proposed BC on the Coast Starlight. The seats would essentially be the same as the leather seats used in Acela Business Class. There would be 12 seats in a 2x2 arrangement. It would cost approx. $56,600 per car to convert the lower level in the coaches to business class.

 

[Blackwolf]

The only problem is cutting through the dogma of taking the rather minimal investment and risk to implement such a service. There are a lot of nay-sayers who would remark that Amtrak cannot afford this step be it cost of manufacturing new seats/limited rolling stock/the bad-order risk and like-class substitution/etc. I would counter that Amtrak not only has the financial capability of perusing this opportunity, but has plenty of rolling stock available. The biggest obstacle is getting the giant machine that Amtrak's corporate structure into motion.

Specifically what cars would you take out of service in order to convert them to a BC configuration? Where will the money come from to do the conversion?

Assuming you just convert the lower level of a superliner coach to the BC seating, I don't see where this is a major expense...

He seemed to be implying something more than what Amtrak is already doing on the CS.

That's correct, Ryan. I'm saying exactly this. Amtrak is not in the survival mode it was just 10 short years ago. The company is not looking to shut down all non-NEC operations in two weeks time. Employees are not looking at the prospects of IOU's instead of paychecks. The fleet, while not getting any younger, is not in the deplorable state of barely hanging onto the rails and is actually in relatively reliable mechanical condition for a vastly large part. Country-wide railroad ridership has not been at the numbers we're experiencing in over 50 years; better even than before Amtrak's creation. Lastly, the financial picture of the company is the best-ever in Amtrak's history. Not breaking even, but to expect Amtrak to be in the black system-wide is to also expect a manned colonization mission to Mars before the close of this decade.

Business Class standardization, followed by wide-spread implementation is one of the easiest and most obtainable ways to break some of the chains that still bind Amtrak in the past as far as rider impressions go. The best-case scenarios would include having those much-lauded fully-lie-flat business suites you find on most major airline carriers. Barring such a substantial improvement to guest offerings, the next best thing would be to have those 2-1 overstuffed leather seats with no advancement of the legroom (already plenty generous) and make them widely available on every single Amtrak-controlled train. Start off with the lower level of Superliner coaches being converted. If there are substantial sell-out situations happening (not a far-fetched proposition,) then convert half of the upper level to Business Class and put up a partition between regular coach and the new cabin. For the single-level fleet, you slice half of a coach car off for general Coach and the other half for Business Class. Not every car, but enough cars to equip every single LD train with a Business Class section and have a reserve pool for bad-orders. So, you loose a percentage of general Coach seats. I'm going to be a touch cold-hearted and say "deal with it." It will not lower revenue prospects, but will actually make more with the same inventory of rolling stock. In only a few years time, the conversions will have paid for themselves in full, meaning the rest is pure profit. And improved passenger enjoyability.

The long-term solution is to have more cars, say at least 25% more cars, than the current entire fleet (single and double level cars.) Preferably even more than that. Thus you have both more capacity for coach, added capacity for even more Business Class, and of course sleepers. This is still some distance into the future, but new cars have to happen. And they will. There is opportunity to be had here, and the current configuration of available accommodations do not take full advantage of those potential dollars.

Just my personal opinion, mind you. I'm a firefighter, not a railroader. But I don't take any of the reasons given as deal-killing obstacles. Even when all combined together. All it takes is will and fortitude to make it happen, the rest will follow in short order. I, for one, welcome the new BC choice for the Coast Starlight and will be using it.

 

[Ziv]

I may like to have an extra bit of separation from the person next to me, but I would love to be able to lay flat at an angle if the seat was built so that I could actually sleep well. Going from 50" pitch to LFAAA is not a huge change and even the current width of seating would make it a very comfortable seat. So take out 7 rows of coach 2 x 2 seating and put in 6 rows of LFAAA 2 x 2. Amtrak loses 15% of the seats in that section and can charge 50% more than what they charge for a coach seat, plus the LFAAA would have a much higher use rate. Just sell a seat I can sleep in without doubling the ticket price.

 

[Ryan]

So lets say that you take a current coach car and go from 2x2 seating to 2x1 seating and keep the same pitch.

You're reducing capacity by 25%, so you're going to have to charge 25% more for those seats just to break even. In reality you're going to have to charge more than that to pay for the conversion costs, and the fact that you're going to be losing capacity while the cars are in the shop getting reworked.

The goal of doing something like this wouldn't be simply to break even, but make more money on it. Can you charge a 30 or 35% surcharge over coach and sell enough seats to financially make sense? If you go with a lie flat style Business Class seat (which I think would be great), you're going to lose even more seats and have to charge even more of a premium to make the numbers work.

Looking at Northeast Regional prices, you're looking at $200 to go from Washington to Boston tomorrow. The upcharge for Business Class is $50, or 25%. Of course, if you look far enough out you can get that same seat for $70, with the upcharge staying the same $50, so you're looking at a 70% premium.

We'll have to wait and see how the Coast Starlight experiment works out.

But the fact is "the giant machine" is in motion. If they find that they can make enough of a profit to justify the risk, you'll see it spread out around the system.

 

[Nathanael]

To answer your topic question with a personal opinion: A mid-tier Business Class option is a very practical idea that would be highly successful.

On which trains? I can't see it being popular on the Lake Shore Limited. The entire "day trip" market is covered by Empire Service (which should have business class).

It seems like it would make sense on the Crescent and the Silver Service... except that Viewliner IIs are already nicer and have longer seat pitch than corridor Business Class. I suppose you could go with 2-1 seating, but that would require fares more than 33% higher in order to be profitable, and would this actually be popular? (Note: 33 1/3% is correct for breakeven, 25% is too low.)

I guess there's an opportunity for 2-2 business class with the Superliner trains, where the coach seating is arguably not as nice as in the Viewliner IIs and the current plan is to shrink the seat pitch! However, which trains *have* day trip markets? The Coast Starlight, yes. The California Zephyr from Denver to the ski areas, or from Reno to the Bay Area -- but both sections are overcrowded and would need added cars. Definitely not the Capitol Limited. Perhaps the City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Memphis? Perhaps the Empire Builder from Chicago to Minneapolis? Perhaps the Texas Eagle in Texas?

I guess my conclusion is that there's little value to modifying existing cars from coach configurations to business class configurations. The Coast Starlight is in a special case due to the currently wasted "Arcade" section. Possibly some of the bievel coach-baggage cars could be made coach-business class if they aren't needed for baggage. But on the whole, I don't expect to see additional long-distance business class cars until Amtrak orders new long-distance bilevels. I don't expect to see any single-level long-distance business class cars.

 

[Shortline]

I would pay the premium for a BC coach every time for day trips-(and do, on the Wolverine when it's not sold out!). Especially if they can do reserved seat assignments, whcih CAN be done, other rail systems do it regularly, and they do it for sleepers, so it can be done with BC seats as well.

We really need to consider it like other nations do, 3rd class, 2nd class, and first class. Call it whatever you like, Coach, Business, and Sleeper class, but it's all the same thing. There is a need for no frills, low cost train travel. That would be coach. There is a need for a non-sleeper option, that is catered to a somewhat more discriminating clientele that can, and will pay for a better level of service and comfort, and peace and quiet, and there is a need for a sleeper/private compartment option. I think this really is exactly what's needed to bring more people to the party. Whatever loss of seats they end up with, I expect will more than be made up for in revenue, especially if they do it in tiers, as the service grows, the number of BC cars/seats grow.

 

[MikeM]

To Ryan's point above, you definitely would want to be charging more for BC on a long haul route than a standard coach. I could easily see fares 50% or more over standard coach, if the product is clearly differentiated and standardized. The whole idea would be to create a product that would be a "poor person's sleeper" without spending the money to invent a new car type.

It I had a dream, it'd be a slumbercoach superliner. However, there are not enough drugs in Kansas for me to believe this option would ever come to pass. So spread out distance is a close second. Making the change on the lower level only would provide some segregation and privacy for those paying the extra money.

To the other writer who would prefer lay flat vs. 2x1, if some how you could create some separation between the two seats, a screen or something that could be used, that might be an option. I just go back to several of my more memorable coach trips, sitting next to someone who hadn't showered in recent times one time, and another who came back from the lounge feeling no pain and full of things to share another time. Then again, those folks probably wouldn't spring the extra bucks for a BC seat.