Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[Caesar La Rock]

If a core train is 9 cars, the propensity for failure and train cancellation is very high. Amtrak is constantly swapping cars out for defects, often before departure. I don't care what they do in Europe and Asia, LD trains here go out for 2,000 and 4,000 mile roundtrips with no enroute support and usually little support at the outying terminal. Just look at what happens when a Viewliner is bad-ordered in Chicago or Boston. You get no substitute or maybe if "lucky" a Horizon coach. It does no good to be ADA-compliant when the train can't run. I also don' see why a wheelchair person, coach or sleeper, or anyone else needs to have the run of 9 cars. Amtrak is not going to get religion and straighten out Chicago.

When I've ridden Amtrak, I've only had one situation where one car in the consist (a Diner) had a mechanical issue, delaying the train at Sunnyside Yard. Despite that, Amtrak managed to repair the issue, allowing the train to finally depart the yard, and for us to board at Penn Station.

Wasn't a bad trip on the Star, and bare in mind, this was back when the Heritage Diners were in use at that time. If Amtrak can repair 60+ year old cars in the yard without having to switch the car out, I'm confident Amtrak can handle any issues that arise with the brand new long distance trainsets.

Some people might not like the idea of fixed sets, but guys we're not in the 20th century anymore. If Amtrak really wants to be taken serious in this era, it can't be relying on 20th century railroad status quos. Sometimes you don't always get what you want in life, but at least ladies and gentlemen, passenger trains in this country are finally getting the attention it deserves.

Also that 9 car trainset core should be taken with a grain of salt, as some sets maybe be longer then 9 cars. Like do you guys really expect Amtrak to run the Auto Train with just 9 passenger cars in the consist? Happy New Years everyone and have a nice night.

 

[WWW]

Train set consists - the Empire Builder - don't forget to factor in the split/joining at Spokane #7/#27 #8/#28.
Almost like cutting/joining the consist in half
---Seattle section
L
L
B
T
S
D
C
---Portland section
SSL
C
S
S

Haven't read anything about the consists of the 2nd train MSP-CHI and any extension service to Duluth ?
Probably may wild guess run with a locomotive (baggage) business coach cafe and 2 more coaches ???

 

[joelkfla]

Train set consists - the Empire Builder - don't forget to factor in the split/joining at Spokane #7/#27 #8/#28.
Almost like cutting/joining the consist in half

I'm having a hard time imagining how that would be possible with the accessible core approach, and still maintain accessibility across the 2 sections while joined, and in the individual sections after the split. It seems like they would need the ability to break open the core in the field and move some accessible cars into another trainset.

 

[Amtrak25]

When I've ridden Amtrak, I've only had one situation where one car in the consist (a Diner) had a mechanical issue, delaying the train at Sunnyside Yard. Despite that, Amtrak managed to repair the issue, allowing the train to finally depart the yard, and for us to board at Penn Station.

Wasn't a bad trip on the Star, and bare in mind, this was back when the Heritage Diners were in use at that time. If Amtrak can repair 60+ year old cars in the yard without having to switch the car out, I'm confident Amtrak can handle any issues that arise with the brand new long distance trainsets.

Some people might not like the idea of fixed sets, but guys we're not in the 20th century anymore. If Amtrak really wants to be taken serious in this era, it can't be relying on 20th century railroad status quos. Sometimes you don't always get what you want in life, but at least ladies and gentlemen, passenger trains in this country are finally getting the attention it deserves.

Also that 9 car trainset core should be taken with a grain of salt, as some sets maybe be longer then 9 cars. Like do you guys really expect Amtrak to run the Auto Train with just 9 passenger cars in the consist? Happy New Years everyone and have a nice night.

Ignoring Chicago shenanigans of habitually ignoring defect reports will not make it go away, has been going on for decades, and will go on forever. You don't see what goes on in the yard. There's is plenty of swapping out going on, all too often within an hour of departure, or delayed departure from the terminal and taking 4 hours to swap the car out.

Do you actually think they are going to run 18 car Empire Builders and Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltds and Lake Shore Ltds ? Say good bye to one branch of that train or the other if they stick to 9 car sets when in fact married pairs are adqeuate for the ADA lawyers. They can have a combo cafe and diner car, 2 per consist, one pair married to an ADA coach, the other to an ADA sleeper.

We have all passed by a Superliner car parked next to a grain silo in a corn field numerous times. In the future that will be 9 car trains with all passengers shunted off on school buses to the nearest truck stop for the next day's train.

Passengers are not going take Amtrak any more seriously because they don't have a clue what couples cars together and don't care. Euorpe and Japan do not run trains for 4,000 mile round trips with no support. The only thing they can do between Chicago and the West Coast is call a plumber truck to dump the system. A Horizon coach did a round trip on the Lake Shore Ltd to New York last week. 72 passengers may not have liked the seats, but a train load didn't have the round trip cancelled. Acelas have 3 major support facilities 220 miles apart in Boston, Sunnyside, and Ivy City. LD trains have nothing of a kind.

On the NYCT #7 subway line, 506 cars are assigned to it in 5 and 6 cars sets for 11 car trains. But they are putting out only the same level of service as 40 years ago when they had just 440 cars in married pairs and singles. When one 5 or 6 car set goes out because of 1 defective car, so does the entire 11 car train. That is for a 40 minute run with a shop in Queens.

 

[lordsigma]

Once again as stated in previous posts - people are taking this idea of the 9 car design way too literally - they haven’t even chosen a vendor yet or released any specifics about the actual product. This was just about getting approval from the FRA for an alternative way of accomplishing ADA besides the traditional per car requirement in order to improve accessibility. It’s not about “keeping the ADA lawyers happy” it’s about doing the right thing. Is there such thing as unreasonable accommodations? Sure / but trying to make the major facilities of the train accessible to everyone so they can enjoy the trip is very reasonable - and the right thing to do. And this idea that there’s a stealth sabotage motive to kill a branch of the builder and lake shore is absurd - this is new equipment and splitting train scenarios like the builder can easily be programmed into the order. The vendor that can provide all the requirements with operational flexibility is likely going to be a factor.

 

[west point]

. And this idea that there’s a stealth sabotage motive to kill a branch of the builder and lake shore is absurd - this is new equipment and splitting train scenarios like the builder can easily be programmed into the order. The vendor that can provide all the requirements with operational flexibility is likely going to be a factor.

Lord: This probably comes from too many Amtrak promises that have not been kept?

 

[jis]

Lord: This probably comes from too many Amtrak promises that have not been kept?

It has more to do with people jumping the gun in their imagination based on one diagram which was made for a different purpose. Hey, that is what keeps us busy and feeling good, so be it

 

[Cal]

When I've ridden Amtrak, I've only had one situation where one car in the consist (a Diner) had a mechanical issue, delaying the train at Sunnyside Yard. Despite that, Amtrak managed to repair the issue, allowing the train to finally depart the yard, and for us to board at Penn Station.

Wasn't a bad trip on the Star, and bare in mind, this was back when the Heritage Diners were in use at that time. If Amtrak can repair 60+ year old cars in the yard without having to switch the car out, I'm confident Amtrak can handle any issues that arise with the brand new long distance trainsets.

Some people might not like the idea of fixed sets, but guys we're not in the 20th century anymore. If Amtrak really wants to be taken serious in this era, it can't be relying on 20th century railroad status quos. Sometimes you don't always get what you want in life, but at least ladies and gentlemen, passenger trains in this country are finally getting the attention it deserves.

Also that 9 car trainset core should be taken with a grain of salt, as some sets maybe be longer then 9 cars. Like do you guys really expect Amtrak to run the Auto Train with just 9 passenger cars in the consist? Happy New Years everyone and have a nice night.

Just want to point out that last year I remember seeing a Chief leave LA hours late because of mechanical issues (I want to say it was four hours late, but I can't recall -- I just remember it was an embarrassingly long time). The fact that they couldn't efficiently handle an engine issue in one of the their largest bases makes me concerned.

 

[Awesometrainz]

Tbh I am pretty sure it’s gonna be a BI level order now that I see more people saying 9 car sets .

I feel like these 9 car bi level sets will have a brand like ario will . They def will be longer for certain trains with extra cars to be added as for baggage I think the crew and baggage mix is a great idea for LD

As for the bid I know realize that Amtrak is not waiting more then a decade for new carriages so CAF likely won’t win leaving the winner to be most likely standler if it’s a bi level order I think they need to produce shorter versions of there existing rocky mountaineer carriages .

 

[Awesometrainz]

Now the rocky mountaineer bi levels won’t fit in Chicago so maybe a gold leaf and kiss hybrid could be a design . Especially how they did the kiss set to work on cal train in anyone wants me to go in detail I will make a edit of what Imaigne for Amtrak but if they do it we’ll kiss carragies and gold leaf mix could work really well.

 

[WWW]

Now the rocky mountaineer bi levels won’t fit in Chicago so maybe a gold leaf and kiss hybrid could be a design . Especially how they did the kiss set to work on cal train in anyone wants me to go in detail I will make a edit of what Imaigne for Amtrak but if they do it we’ll kiss carragies and gold leaf mix could work really well.

Interesting - the RM bi-levels are not used in the USA on the Red Rockies to Moab due to tunnel restrictions ?
These cars are like the Alaska Railroad Gold Star domes - suitable for sightseeing - not cross country trips.
Speed is not important when sightseeing. Sightseeing observation on a different (excellent) level from Amtrak SSL equipment.

 

[Mailliw]

Lord: This probably comes from too many Amtrak promises that have not been kept?

Never assume malice over incompetence.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Tbh I am pretty sure it’s gonna be a BI level order now that I see more people saying 9 car sets .

I feel like these 9 car bi level sets will have a brand like ario will . They def will be longer for certain trains with extra cars to be added as for baggage I think the crew and baggage mix is a great idea for LD

As for the bid I know realize that Amtrak is not waiting more then a decade for new carriages so CAF likely won’t win leaving the winner to be most likely stadler if it’s a bi level order I think they need to produce shorter versions of there existing rocky mountaineer carriages .

I anxiously await news of the award, probably months out at this point. Here's a picture of the field where Stadler will build a carbody facility if they win the contract.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Just want to point out that last year I remember seeing a Chief leave LA hours late because of mechanical issues (I want to say it was four hours late, but I can't recall -- I just remember it was an embarrassingly long time). The fact that they couldn't efficiently handle an engine issue in one of the their largest bases makes me concerned.

Amtrak by no means is perfect (Hey Amtrak, everyone at Miami Intermodal Center is STILL waiting for you), but incidents like what you witnessed while they do happen, it's not a daily occurrence. Now as for what happened there, it could be a million reasons why it took that long to get the Chief out of LA. The aging Genesis locomotives, the fact that LA is one of the busiest stations, and other factors likely played a role.

That's why I'm rooting for whoever the vendor will be that'll build the long distance fleet. Even if you replace the locomotives, you're still hauling 30-40+ year old passenger cars behind those new locomotives, and those passenger cars have their own respective problems too. New trainsets are expected to be fixed sets, I'm with it. I'm curious like everyone else is. What this will look like, and how it'll function for the traveling public.

 

[Mailliw]

Is there going to be an RFP to replace the Amfleet IIs and Viewliner Is in the single-level long-distance fleet as well?

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Any chance that by going with trainsets here that Amtrak will be top and tailing their consists in the future, or will it most likely still be 2/3/4 locos on the front and nothing on the back like it currently is? Just a huge pet peeve of mine, along with a refusal to wash their trains more than 1 time every 10 years.

Though with this order I personally hope Amtrak just orders more single level Venture coaches and go all out on maximizing the usable space instead of bi levels. Nightjet set a decent template on this already

 

[Awesometrainz]

what I would like to see in this LD order is a GOLD LEAF design but with parts and components of the kiss sets carriages top and and tailing with a charger at each end

 

[b1xn00d]

I hope whatever they come up with is reasonably simple to build so Amtrak can order 10,000. Equipment availability would never be an issue again, plus mile-long Amtrak trains that don't fit into Union Pacific's sidings would be funny.

 

[WWW]

I hope whatever they come up with is reasonably simple to build so Amtrak can order 10,000. Equipment availability would never be an issue again, plus mile-long Amtrak trains that don't fit into Union Pacific's sidings would be funny.

Yes that would be funny - UP having to split up mile long trains playing a shuffle of cars game
to fit which concludes with the making of more double track as an end game solution.

 

[Anderson]

Once again as stated in previous posts - people are taking this idea of the 9 car design way too literally - they haven’t even chosen a vendor yet or released any specifics about the actual product. This was just about getting approval from the FRA for an alternative way of accomplishing ADA besides the traditional per car requirement in order to improve accessibility. It’s not about “keeping the ADA lawyers happy” it’s about doing the right thing. Is there such thing as unreasonable accommodations? Sure / but trying to make the major facilities of the train accessible to everyone so they can enjoy the trip is very reasonable - and the right thing to do. And this idea that there’s a stealth sabotage motive to kill a branch of the builder and lake shore is absurd - this is new equipment and splitting train scenarios like the builder can easily be programmed into the order. The vendor that can provide all the requirements with operational flexibility is likely going to be a factor.

To counter, the "set" approach is what they're doing for corridor trains, and that presumably includes "long day trains" like the Maple Leaf and Palmetto. So there's at least some reason to believe that they'll go a "fixed set" path on the LD side of things.

 

[GDRRiley]

Is there going to be an RFP to replace the Amfleet IIs and Viewliner Is in the single-level long-distance fleet as well?

Separately it seems, I wouldn't be surprised if it was build us viewliners and or venture cars for eastern LD

Any chance that by going with trainsets here that Amtrak will be top and tailing their consists in the future, or will it most likely still be 2/3/4 locos on the front and nothing on the back like it currently is? Just a huge pet peeve of mine, along with a refusal to wash their trains more than 1 time every 10 years.

unlikely they will top and tail, the locos stacked on the front are setup so that if 1 dies or can't lead its easy enough to have the other one do so. Back in the steam heat days and into early HEP like the P30CH it was also about controlling those functions. (P30CH had a fun sync generators across units feature)

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Top and tail require a connection between the two or more units. This can be a physical wire or a radio based system. Both cost money. There no real reason to top and tail a long distance train. The amount of force applied to the couplers will not be enough to pull a trainset apart. While a cab car can find work in short haul daylight trips, there is no advantage to it in a long distance train.

In Europe there are a few place the double cab locomotive will run around the trainset and couple on, to reverse the direction. We don’t have the same issues here. Only Denver requires a back-up move with passengers. Yes there is terminal location that can be reversed into, but they will be nosed dive into if there a time crunch.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Top and tail require a connection between the two or more units. This can be a physical wire or a radio based system. Both cost money. There no real reason to top and tail a long distance train. The amount of force applied to the couplers will not be enough to pull a trainset apart. While a cab car can find work in short haul daylight trips, there is no advantage to it in a long distance train.

In Europe there are a few place the double cab locomotive will run around the trainset and couple on, to reverse the direction. We don’t have the same issues here. Only Denver requires a back-up move with passengers. Yes there is terminal location that can be reversed into, but they will be nosed dive into if there a time crunch.

Tampa requires a long back up move also

 

[lordsigma]

Is there going to be an RFP to replace the Amfleet IIs and Viewliner Is in the single-level long-distance fleet as well?

There could be. Additionally Amtrak does hold a single level long distance car option they could choose to exercise on the contract they already have with Siemens for the Airo trainsets. I believe the scope of the option just covers the Amfleet II fleet, so they would still have to figure out what to do about the Viewliner Is.

 

[Anderson]

There could be. Additionally Amtrak does hold a single level long distance car option they could choose to exercise on the contract they already have with Siemens for the Airo trainsets. I believe the scope of the option just covers the Amfleet II fleet, so they would still have to figure out what to do about the Viewliner Is.

It's more that the set order doesn't have any sleepers (or full dining cars, or [I think] baggage cars) in it, so purely exercising the options for the LD fleet becomes tricky. Realistically, they'd either be paying more to swap out car types or they'd just tender a fresh order for X LD sets.

[This is versus, say, adding a bunch of sets for SEHSR or another project, which would easily be covered under the 213 orders+options...and I think there is even room to stick additional sets of two cars into trains.]