Missing out on western scenery

[acelafan]

I really enjoyed reading the topic "Amtrak's best trains" and it got me thinking. When you look at Amtrak's map of the western long-distance routes, several have a considerable section of travel in the dark that occurs on both the westbound and eastbound journeys.

For example, the California Zephyr is scheduled to travel through the same parts of Nevada and Utah, as well as eastern Colorado and Nebraska, during the night. Yes, the eastern Nevada desert is not as "scenic" as the mountains, but it does have its own unique beauty. Would Amtrak ever consider adjusting the schedules of one of the train pairs (eastbound vs westbound) to allow for a section of rail that is normally traveled at night to be traveled during the day? Delays of course can change the schedule around at any given time, but I was just curious about the scheduling of the western long-distance runs. Are the current timetables "optimized" for best scenery?

 

[the_traveler]

With only 1 train a day (if you're lucky - SL :lol: ), the "dark trips" are such because Amtrak decided that people in NY and DC don't want to depart at 2 AM, so instead Ohio gets to depart at 2 AM! And riders in CHI and CA want to depart and arrive at "a reasonable time, so you depart from Lincoln or SLC or Needles in the middle of the night instead.

This timing also helps with connections between most trains in CHI.

Until the routes have more then 1 train a day, North Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas will keep being served in darkness.

 

[Bob Dylan]

With only 1 train a day (if you're lucky - SL :lol: ), the "dark trips" are such because Amtrak decided that people in NY and DC don't want to depart at 2 AM, so instead Ohio gets to depart at 2 AM! And riders in CHI and CA want to depart and arrive at "a reasonable time, so you depart from Lincoln or SLC or Needles in the middle of the night instead.
This timing also helps with connections between most trains in CHI.

Until the routes have more then 1 train a day, North Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas will keep being served in darkness.

Guess the folks on the Cardinal route in Indianapolis and Cinncinnatti feel they are in the dark too,as well as Cleveland and Houston and San Antonio,

wait, these are major population centers, not to mention Tuscon and Phoenix that has NO trains!Weve discussed this before, of course connections are important in Chicago but what would be wrong with Coast to Coast routes North and South, this would allow some flexibility in schedule and surely improve the OTP and stop the juggling in Chicago when the trains are late! (As to the South, lots of folks think were always "in the dark"!

 

[jmbgeg]

With only 1 train a day (if you're lucky - SL :lol: ), the "dark trips" are such because Amtrak decided that people in NY and DC don't want to depart at 2 AM, so instead Ohio gets to depart at 2 AM! And riders in CHI and CA want to depart and arrive at "a reasonable time, so you depart from Lincoln or SLC or Needles in the middle of the night instead.
This timing also helps with connections between most trains in CHI.

Until the routes have more then 1 train a day, North Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas will keep being served in darkness.

The one train per day staging is well described by The Traveler. It would be possible if passenger counts ballooned to the level they could have two long distance trains per day per route, say at 12 hour intervals, to reverse the night and day timing, but they have neither the demand nor the equipment to do that.

 

[acelafan]

With only 1 train a day (if you're lucky - SL :lol: ), the "dark trips" are such because Amtrak decided that people in NY and DC don't want to depart at 2 AM, so instead Ohio gets to depart at 2 AM! And riders in CHI and CA want to depart and arrive at "a reasonable time, so you depart from Lincoln or SLC or Needles in the middle of the night instead.
This timing also helps with connections between most trains in CHI.

Until the routes have more then 1 train a day, North Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas will keep being served in darkness.

Yes...I guess we can't have everything. Indeed we are lucky to have long-distance routes at all! I see a little wiggle room in the schedule to stagger departure times, but not too much. I'm going to have to travel the EB on June 20th to maximize daylight!

Jim's idea of north-south routes are intriguing, too.

 

[the_traveler]

The Bean Counters in Washington only care about the end points, not the people in Cleveland, Spokane, Little Rock or Charlotte.

not to mention Tuscon and Phoenix that has NO trains!

Phoenix doesn't, but Tucson most certainly does - the SL/TE!

As to the South, lots of folks think were always "in the dark"!

You can say that again! :lol:

 

[AlanB]

With only 1 train a day (if you're lucky - SL :lol: ), the "dark trips" are such because Amtrak decided that people in NY and DC don't want to depart at 2 AM, so instead Ohio gets to depart at 2 AM! And riders in CHI and CA want to depart and arrive at "a reasonable time, so you depart from Lincoln or SLC or Needles in the middle of the night instead.
This timing also helps with connections between most trains in CHI.

Until the routes have more then 1 train a day, North Dakota, Nebraska and Arkansas will keep being served in darkness.

The one train per day staging is well described by The Traveler. It would be possible if passenger counts ballooned to the level they could have two long distance trains per day per route, say at 12 hour intervals, to reverse the night and day timing, but they have neither the demand nor the equipment to do that.

Actually some routes may well have the ridership to support a stagger, but Amtrak has neither the equipment nor the money to do it.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Don't forget that ours is historically a dwindling hobby.We are so lucky to still have passenger trains long distance at all.

It is not as if Amtrak, or the private railroads before that, just sat in a corner with their arms firmly folded refusing to have more trains at more convenient times.

If only you could see an old Official Guide for the Railways from, say, the 50's, you would see how we had so many more trains going so many more places, and at differing times of day.

You mention the CZ. The original CZ in 1949 was widely and I mean widely advertised for being scheduled to go through the "better" scenery in the day. The operating railroads even admitted that the train went slower than it had to in some places just to make it work better with the scenery. And BTW you can be sure that the CZ's OTP was infinately better than today.

And several trains other than the CZ ran between Chicago and Denver. Between Denver and SLC there was an overnight train called the Prospector and it was adverised more as a business person's schedule than a vacation oriented train. There was another train between SLC and SF at different time of

day from the CZ.

And keep in mind that there were at least two other routes from CHI to SF.

You could say we inherited the routes wh[ch had the most promise back iin 1971 when Amtrak came into existence. All the other routes were discontinued that day. The idea was that the routes would build back up after being operated properly, etc.

 

[zoltan]

Current Amtrak usage has probably developed around the status quo of schedules - Someone wanting an overnight journey from Charleston, WV to Chicago might stop using the Cardinal because it was run five hours later for Cincinnati passengers, they might not be replaced by an equivalent rider from Cincinnati, as people there are probably used to taking the bus because it's more convenient, and are less likely to consider the train an option worth considering. (this is saying nothing of the missed connections westward from Chicago!) Generally, custom takes a long time to build up, so changing a schedule can quickly lose a lot of passengers that aren't immediately replaced.

In addition, people use the trains for a variety of reasons - again, built around the schedules being as they are - so catering for those making a round-trip on the same train (rather than perhaps returning on another route) who are particularly fond of watching the scenery risks the custom of those that use the train in a different way.

That said, there are a lot of routes on which second schedules would be brilliant to have. Immediate examples that spring to mind are the Crescent - A long day's journey from New York to Atlanta and an overnight from Atlanta to NOL, and the LSL - A long day's journey from New York to Chicago. The duality of those like me who dislike spending a night in the seats (hence the popularity of the Maple Leaf and Adirondack) and those that dislike wasting a day in traveling, plus the fact that 100% of stations could thus be served during the day, means that by providing two schedules a day you should be able to generate additional passengers rather than just spread out the existing ones.

However, trains cost money. So while a lot of things might be desirable, Amtrak have to work with what resources it has. Sadly, trains continue to be seen a nice thing for a city to have at best, or as a network that it's too politically difficult to get rid of at worst, rather than something seriously socially, economically and environmentally beneficial, particularly to cities they serve at convenient times. While that remains the case, a bare-minimum one-train-a-day network will continue to dominate.

If we are to convince cities, states or federal sources to fund more frequent intercity trains, it will most likely have to be seen in terms of improving social welfare and reducing the number of people using cars and planes to reach their destinations. So while those wanting to see some desert as well as some mountains would benefit, their needs won't be the ones that the supporters of passenger rail will be basing their arguments upon.

 

[acelafan]

And several trains other than the CZ ran between Chicago and Denver. Between Denver and SLC there was an overnight train called the Prospector and it was adverised more as a business person's schedule than a vacation oriented train. There was another train between SLC and SF at different time of day from the CZ.

You reminded me that Amtrak has been asked to study the feasibility of re-starting The Pioneer route. I think it went from Salt Lake City to Portland but I am not certain. And I think Amtrak can grow its customer base if the OTP problem is addressed. Definitely not easy with the freight RR issues, equipment with deferred maintenance, etc. But that's another topic so I will go back to dreaming about more long distance trains.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

And several trains other than the CZ ran between Chicago and Denver. Between Denver and SLC there was an overnight train called the Prospector and it was adverised more as a business person's schedule than a vacation oriented train. There was another train between SLC and SF at different time of day from the CZ.

You reminded me that Amtrak has been asked to study the feasibility of re-starting The Pioneer route. I think it went from Salt Lake City to Portland but I am not certain. And I think Amtrak can grow its customer base if the OTP problem is addressed. Definitely not easy with the freight RR issues, equipment with deferred maintenance, etc. But that's another topic so I will go back to dreaming about more long distance trains.

And I share your dream of more long distance trains. After all here I am here in Atlanta with no decent service either to Chicago or to FLorida. Yet those are the very trains I grew up on!!

 

[colobok]

I really enjoyed reading the topic "Amtrak's best trains" and it got me thinking. When you look at Amtrak's map of the western long-distance routes, several have a considerable section of travel in the dark that occurs on both the westbound and eastbound journeys.
For example, the California Zephyr is scheduled to travel through the same parts of Nevada and Utah, as well as eastern Colorado and Nebraska, during the night. Yes, the eastern Nevada desert is not as "scenic" as the mountains, but it does have its own unique beauty. Would Amtrak ever consider adjusting the schedules of one of the train pairs (eastbound vs westbound) to allow for a section of rail that is normally traveled at night to be traveled during the day? Delays of course can change the schedule around at any given time, but I was just curious about the scheduling of the western long-distance runs. Are the current timetables "optimized" for best scenery?

Actually not only western trains have "night-time zones", but ALL long distance trains.

For example Florida trains. I wonder why Columbia, SC have both trains in the middle of the night. A little shift could help them to have at least one train in better time.

 

[acelafan]

I really enjoyed reading the topic "Amtrak's best trains" and it got me thinking. When you look at Amtrak's map of the western long-distance routes, several have a considerable section of travel in the dark that occurs on both the westbound and eastbound journeys.
For example, the California Zephyr is scheduled to travel through the same parts of Nevada and Utah, as well as eastern Colorado and Nebraska, during the night. Yes, the eastern Nevada desert is not as "scenic" as the mountains, but it does have its own unique beauty. Would Amtrak ever consider adjusting the schedules of one of the train pairs (eastbound vs westbound) to allow for a section of rail that is normally traveled at night to be traveled during the day? Delays of course can change the schedule around at any given time, but I was just curious about the scheduling of the western long-distance runs. Are the current timetables "optimized" for best scenery?

Actually not only western trains have "night-time zones", but ALL long distance trains.

For example Florida trains. I wonder why Columbia, SC have both trains in the middle of the night. A little shift could help them to have at least one train in better time.

Good point, I live in Miami and we are served by two trains daily: the Silver Meteor, departing at 8:40AM and the Silver Star, departing at 11:50AM. It seems Amtrak could stagger the trains to leave further apart (9 or 10 hours, for example) but that time shift would result in a crummy connection in DC. Like others have pointed out, I'm sure Amtrak leadership doesn't want a train getting into DC around midnight (due to possible delays) and then having passengers stuck there all night.

Guess we just have to wish for more frequent service...maybe someday!

 

[the_traveler]

You're right, the millions in NY and DC (not to mention the people too ) would never accept having to get on or off a train in the middle of the night!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I really enjoyed reading the topic "Amtrak's best trains" and it got me thinking. When you look at Amtrak's map of the western long-distance routes, several have a considerable section of travel in the dark that occurs on both the westbound and eastbound journeys.
For example, the California Zephyr is scheduled to travel through the same parts of Nevada and Utah, as well as eastern Colorado and Nebraska, during the night. Yes, the eastern Nevada desert is not as "scenic" as the mountains, but it does have its own unique beauty. Would Amtrak ever consider adjusting the schedules of one of the train pairs (eastbound vs westbound) to allow for a section of rail that is normally traveled at night to be traveled during the day? Delays of course can change the schedule around at any given time, but I was just curious about the scheduling of the western long-distance runs. Are the current timetables "optimized" for best scenery?

Actually not only western trains have "night-time zones", but ALL long distance trains.

For example Florida trains. I wonder why Columbia, SC have both trains in the middle of the night. A little shift could help them to have at least one train in better time.

Good point, I live in Miami and we are served by two trains daily: the Silver Meteor, departing at 8:40AM and the Silver Star, departing at 11:50AM. It seems Amtrak could stagger the trains to leave further apart (9 or 10 hours, for example) but that time shift would result in a crummy connection in DC. Like others have pointed out, I'm sure Amtrak leadership doesn't want a train getting into DC around midnight (due to possible delays) and then having passengers stuck there all night.

Guess we just have to wish for more frequent service...maybe someday!

Acelafan, I think the smaller towns between JAK and MIA draw a larger crowd of beachgoers than their year around population would suggest. Thus I suspect it is important to be convenient to them. Historically that seems to have been true. Before Amtrak when there were more trains from NYC to MIA and even CHI to MIA the larger trains tended to make the beach stops during the day.

Also on the subject of bad times at larger towns remember the set- out sleeper thing. That helps a lot.Here is an example of a set out sleeper if you are not familiar.

This is from my childhood in Chattanooga. A train called the Tennessean arrived midnight from NYC, WAS,etc left at 12:35 am to Memphis. But there was a set out sleeper one could board in Chattanooga at 9:30 pm. Surrender your ticket, read a magazine or go to bed.You could board any time between 9:30 and departure.

In the other direction the train arrived from Memphis at 3:35 a.m left at 4 for WAS, NYC. The set out sleeper was removed, put on a side track and could be occupied until 7.30.You could deboard any time between arrival and 7.30, up to you.

Thus folks at a larger city could get an adjustment to their convenience. Coach passengers seldom got this service. I think UP had a set out coach from Omaha to LA and that is about it for set out coaches. But there was a country full of set out sleeping cars.

 

[espeefoamer]

Amtrak used to have a Washington-New York set out sleeper on its overnight train between Washington and Boston. One could board the car in NYP in the evening,which would be picked up southbound somewhere around 1-2 AM. This also worked northbound as your car would be set out and you would wake up in NYP.

 

[acelafan]

This is from my childhood in Chattanooga. A train called the Tennessean arrived midnight from NYC, WAS,etc left at 12:35 am to Memphis. But there was a set out sleeper one could board in Chattanooga at 9:30 pm. Surrender your ticket, read a magazine or go to bed.You could board any time between 9:30 and departure.
In the other direction the train arrived from Memphis at 3:35 a.m left at 4 for WAS, NYC. The set out sleeper was removed, put on a side track and could be occupied until 7.30.You could deboard any time between arrival and 7.30, up to you.

Thus folks at a larger city could get an adjustment to their convenience. Coach passengers seldom got this service. I think UP had a set out coach from Omaha to LA and that is about it for set out coaches. But there was a country full of set out sleeping cars.

Bill, I didn't realize the set out sleepers existed....can you tell I always travel in the lowest bucket coach? It is too bad they have gone by the wayside....and one of these days I really need to book a roomette (or a low bucket bedroom) - but this is my biggest fear: What if there is good scenery out the opposite side of the train and I am missing it? If I stayed in the lounge car 24/7 with my nose pressed up against the window I might as well just ride in coach! What do the veteran travelers (such as The Traveler) do in this predicament? Do I need to ride the same route twice...once on each side??

 

[sunchaser]

And several trains other than the CZ ran between Chicago and Denver. Between Denver and SLC there was an overnight train called the Prospector and it was adverised more as a business person's schedule than a vacation oriented train. There was another train between SLC and SF at different time of day from the CZ.

You reminded me that Amtrak has been asked to study the feasibility of re-starting The Pioneer route. I think it went from Salt Lake City to Portland but I am not certain. And I think Amtrak can grow its customer base if the OTP problem is addressed. Definitely not easy with the freight RR issues, equipment with deferred maintenance, etc. But that's another topic so I will go back to dreaming about more long distance trains.

I've been kind of watching out for that feasibility study. This article is the most current info I could find. It would be a nice alternative to get from Salt Lake City to Seattle!

But then I would miss out riding the Coast Starlight!!!

 

[the_traveler]

What do the veteran travelers (such as The Traveler) do in this predicament? Do I need to ride the same route twice...once on each side??

I do! (Sometimes more - and sometimes on the same trip! :lol: )

I either just hope for the views to be on "my side", look at the route guide or my GPS and if it shows it will be on the "other" side, go to the Sightseer, or if I know the location of the sights (like the Pacific Ocean is usually :lol: on the west side of the CS), I'll just go to the Sightseer or PPC! Or if I'm in the last car, I'll stand by the "railfan's window"!

Remember that the reason for a sleeper is for a horizontal bed and the free food! The privacy and plugs for my scanner, phone and netbook are just extras!

 

[jmbgeg]

I really enjoyed reading the topic "Amtrak's best trains" and it got me thinking. When you look at Amtrak's map of the western long-distance routes, several have a considerable section of travel in the dark that occurs on both the westbound and eastbound journeys.
For example, the California Zephyr is scheduled to travel through the same parts of Nevada and Utah, as well as eastern Colorado and Nebraska, during the night. Yes, the eastern Nevada desert is not as "scenic" as the mountains, but it does have its own unique beauty. Would Amtrak ever consider adjusting the schedules of one of the train pairs (eastbound vs westbound) to allow for a section of rail that is normally traveled at night to be traveled during the day? Delays of course can change the schedule around at any given time, but I was just curious about the scheduling of the western long-distance runs. Are the current timetables "optimized" for best scenery?

Actually not only western trains have "night-time zones", but ALL long distance trains.

For example Florida trains. I wonder why Columbia, SC have both trains in the middle of the night. A little shift could help them to have at least one train in better time.

Good point, I live in Miami and we are served by two trains daily: the Silver Meteor, departing at 8:40AM and the Silver Star, departing at 11:50AM. It seems Amtrak could stagger the trains to leave further apart (9 or 10 hours, for example) but that time shift would result in a crummy connection in DC. Like others have pointed out, I'm sure Amtrak leadership doesn't want a train getting into DC around midnight (due to possible delays) and then having passengers stuck there all night.

Guess we just have to wish for more frequent service...maybe someday!

While this thread focuses on the loss of opportunity to see the scenery on some portions of routes due to the hour the trains pass through, you have addressed the issue of odd arrival times. One of the worst things that can happen is when you arrive at your final destination at 3:00-6:00 a.m. It is well before hotel checkin time, and there is little or nothing to do that early in the morning.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

This is from my childhood in Chattanooga. A train called the Tennessean arrived midnight from NYC, WAS,etc left at 12:35 am to Memphis. But there was a set out sleeper one could board in Chattanooga at 9:30 pm. Surrender your ticket, read a magazine or go to bed.You could board any time between 9:30 and departure.
In the other direction the train arrived from Memphis at 3:35 a.m left at 4 for WAS, NYC. The set out sleeper was removed, put on a side track and could be occupied until 7.30.You could deboard any time between arrival and 7.30, up to you.

Thus folks at a larger city could get an adjustment to their convenience. Coach passengers seldom got this service. I think UP had a set out coach from Omaha to LA and that is about it for set out coaches. But there was a country full of set out sleeping cars.

Bill, I didn't realize the set out sleepers existed....can you tell I always travel in the lowest bucket coach? It is too bad they have gone by the wayside....and one of these days I really need to book a roomette (or a low bucket bedroom) - but this is my biggest fear: What if there is good scenery out the opposite side of the train and I am missing it? If I stayed in the lounge car 24/7 with my nose pressed up against the window I might as well just ride in coach! What do the veteran travelers (such as The Traveler) do in this predicament? Do I need to ride the same route twice...once on each side??

Well don't worry too much about the scenery. It has a way of working out. For example, on the CZ between Denver and SLC it kind of jumps from side to side. In a bedroom sometimes you can look out both sides in the aisle.

About set- out sleepers it is not as if they are never coming back. Maybe the one between NY and WAS will be restored someday. But it did happen a lot way back then, esp. pre-Amtrak.And things like cars only going part of the trip due to ridership. Fairly well know on this forum is that at one time the Crescent had some cars just from NYC to ATL, as traffic is higher beteen NYC and ATL. Lots of that happened. There were even cases of cars going south on one train and north on another due to schedule convenience issues. Lots of things used to happen.

Again be glad for what we have. Our nations passenger trains were headed straight down the toilet when Amtrak came along. And Amtrak has often been in trouble.

 

[frj1983]

One other thing comes to mind:

Amtrak Passenger trains run at the behest of the Freight Railroads and without substantial cash-ola, running trains at different times or running more than one is I think dead in the water!

I would love to see second sections of other trains as well, but I don't see the Freight Railroads allowing it until they are paid well for it!

 

[DET63]

I would love to see second sections of other trains as well, but I don't see the Freight Railroads allowing it until they are paid well for it

If they were paid well, fares would also have to be raised. This would discourage passengers from using the services, since they'd be able to get wherever they want to go faster and cheaper by air, bus, or even private car.
It's a tough situation for Amtrak.

I do think, however, that services like The Pioneer might be successful if they were timed to run through a number of college towns at times that would be convenient for students. This might require second services over part of the route, which gets back to the issue of how practical it would be when considering the freight railroads.

 

[JayPea]

I know for awhile the Morth Coast Hiawatha got into and departed Spokane at a halfway decent hour (midmorning, as I recall) but the connection times in both Seattle and Chicago were miserable. It would be nice for Spokane to have better hours, as the scenery eastbound from Spokane to Glacier Park is very scenic------particularly around Sandpoint and Lake Pend Oreille----but I also understand it's not very realistic to add a train just to satisfy my personal whims.

 

[haolerider]

I would love to see second sections of other trains as well, but I don't see the Freight Railroads allowing it until they are paid well for it

If they were paid well, fares would also have to be raised. This would discourage passengers from using the services, since they'd be able to get wherever they want to go faster and cheaper by air, bus, or even private car.
It's a tough situation for Amtrak.

I do think, however, that services like The Pioneer might be successful if they were timed to run through a number of college towns at times that would be convenient for students. This might require second services over part of the route, which gets back to the issue of how practical it would be when considering the freight railroads.

As has been pointed out, many of the schedules are determined by the freight railroads, but much of the east coast is determined by two major issues: 1. how many trains can get in and out of NYP at any one time, which determines arrival and departure times and 2. what time is optimal fof the major cities along the route. Someone referenced the Crescent, which departs NYP in the mid-afternoon, which gives it a 6:30 pm departure time from WAS and an 8:15 am arrival time in ATL - which is the major destination in the south. It also manages to get into NOL at a sometimes on time arrival of 7:00-7:30 pm, in time for a good dinner in the Quarter. The reverse is the same with a mid-evening departure from ATL and a mid-morning arrival into DC.

The Florida trains are also driven by available departure times from NYP and connections in WAS, but are particularly driven by the need for convenient arrival times in ORL, since it is the major destination on those routes. A mid-morning and 1:00 pm arrival gives Disney passengers a good time for check-in and doesn't force them to lose a day and the departures going back north handle noon check-outs and also take care of those who might want to spend another 1/2 day in the area.