Moffat Tunnel Closed?

[p&sr]

Looking at the On-Line Reservations for Amtrak, I see the following:

For dates including June 8 through June 15, 2008 they say that service from Denver to Glenwood Springs or Grand Junction is by bus (but sold out). No service from Grand Junction to Provo. And service from Denver to Provo is routed via Salt Lake City, then by bus south from there.

This rather suggests the CZ will be using the Wyoming Bypass that week.

But I could find no announcement to that effect anywhere on the Amtrak Website (unlike previous years when it was clearly announced).

And phoning for a live agent I was told that they have no information "at this time" about any scheduled closure of the Moffat Tunnel.

Does anybody know the real story here?

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Can't say as I know the real story, but personally I'd be pretty stoked about getting some rare trackage riding in the event of a Moffat closure.

EDIT: That would be almost as cool as a Coast Starlight diverted through the Tehachipis.

 

[AlanB]

UP usually does at least some work up in the mountains during the warmer months, some of that work is actually what they promised Amtrak they would do to improve reliability. So I would not be surprised at all if this is true. Last summer they detoured for almost two months IIRC.

I know that my trips were rerouted through Wyoming. It is an interesting reroute, some nice scenery, although I don't believe that it's nearly as nice as the normal route. But it is a much faster routing. We were hours early into SLC going westbound.

On the other hand if you're a smoker, it could be a real torture trip. Going westbound the train was able to stop on the station track at Green River for the crew change there, so smokers were allowed out. Coming back east, they weren't so lucky and Amtrak couldn't get the station track. So there was no smoking from SLC to Denver, bascially all day long.

PS. Patrick, I think that going around Tehachapi would be far more spectacular (not to mention rarer), than the CZ detour through Wyoming.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

PS. Patrick, I think that going around Tehachapi would be far more spectacular (not to mention rarer), than the CZ detour through Wyoming.

Probably safer, too. In Wyoming you never know if Dick Cheney might be lurking about with his shotgun.

 

[PRR 60]

PS. Patrick, I think that going around Tehachapi would be far more spectacular (not to mention rarer), than the CZ detour through Wyoming.

Probably safer, too. In Wyoming you never know if Dick Cheney might be lurking about with his shotgun.

And mistake the CZ for a deer.

 

[the_traveler]

PS. Patrick, I think that going around Tehachapi would be far more spectacular (not to mention rarer), than the CZ detour through Wyoming.

Probably safer, too. In Wyoming you never know if Dick Cheney might be lurking about with his shotgun.

And mistake the CZ for a deer.

Or a lawyer! :lol:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Oh deer.

 

[ThayerATM]

Looking at the On-Line Reservations for Amtrak, I see the following:
For dates including June 8 through June 15, 2008 they say that service from Denver to Glenwood Springs or Grand Junction is by bus (but sold out). No service from Grand Junction to Provo. And service from Denver to Provo is routed via Salt Lake City, then by bus south from there.

This rather suggests the CZ will be using the Wyoming Bypass that week.

But I could find no announcement to that effect anywhere on the Amtrak Website (unlike previous years when it was clearly announced).

And phoning for a live agent I was told that they have no information "at this time" about any scheduled closure of the Moffat Tunnel.

Does anybody know the real story here?

I'll cut the Amtrak ticket agents all the slack they need. They're probably the last to know about any useful in-the-future information for riders that comes coming down from the 11 teenth floor.

My wife and I BOOKED our very first long distance train trip from ROC to SAC last October, and the trip was supposed to take place --- departing from ROC on Jun 14, 2008 to arrive in SAC on June 17, 2008, and then back June 21 from SAC to ROC, arriving in ROC on June 25, 2008. Of course redcap service and Metropolitan lounge will help with the layover in Chicago each way. We have been looking forward --- for half a year --- to some of the most spectacular scenery in the US, enjoying the relaxed atmosphere of train travel, enjoying a bedroom, and first class travel.

My wife had a stroke last Monday, and I almost cancelled the trip --- all the accessible bedrooms have been sold --- But... My wife would hear nothing of that plan. She simply stated that we're going to go.

Tonight I read that there's a possibility that we might be bussed from one point to another. This is just sooooooo not going to happen! If we wanted a bus trip, we would have booked Greyhound.

Does anyone have details about how the Amtrak TRAIN route is re-routed up through Wyoming, station stops, etc, and if ANY of it would involve deliberately planned bus substitution?

Neither of us will set foot on a bus, unless Amtrak puts us on a bus in an exceptional situation, in order to catch up with the train because of a missed connecton in Chicago. :angry:

ATM (those are my initials)

 

[AlanB]

ATM,

So far there is no indication that Amtrak is planning to bus people, unless they are going to one of the bypassed stops, namely the stops between Denver and Salt Lake City. You're not going to one of those stops, so you'll remain on the train during the detour through Wyoming.

The train will make no passenger stops during the detour between Denver and Salt Lake City. It will make one crew stop and if luck is with you, then you may be able to detrain briefly at Green River should you wish to stretch your legs.

But again the only people being bussed, if the above is true, are those going to a stop between Denver and Salt Lake City. Anyone in it for the long haul, stays on the train.

 

[ThayerATM]

ATM,
So far there is no indication that Amtrak is planning to bus people, unless they are going to one of the bypassed stops, namely the stops between Denver and Salt Lake City. You're not going to one of those stops, so you'll remain on the train during the detour through Wyoming.

The train will make no passenger stops during the detour between Denver and Salt Lake City. It will make one crew stop and if luck is with you, then you may be able to detrain briefly at Green River should you wish to stretch your legs.

But again the only people being bussed, if the above is true, are those going to a stop between Denver and Salt Lake City. Anyone in it for the long haul, stays on the train.

Alan,

That, my board colleague mentor, is some comfort. I won't call AAA in the morning, and tell them to cancel the reservations!

I know that Amtrak has little control over track repairs, snow storms, freight traffic, etc, but I really don't want this trip spoiled by some stupid miscommunication/discommunication between the Amtrak higher-ups and the ticket agents. When I book, I expect to book.

I'm quite able to re-book, adjust, and reschedule as to what my wife and I want/need. If a stroke demands that we cancel, we cancel. It's really quite simple.

But when I pay for a trip in October, I rather expect Amtrak to pull it off that way the next June, barring any unexpected quirks of Mother Nature. Sure, some minor adjustments in schedule, and like that, might have to be made.

Closing the tunnel in the Rockies in June for repairs is not an "unanticptated event" (in this case) and I'm going to pleanty P***** if if this trip gets ****** up because of poor planning/communication with Amtrak's communicating with the freight line long-term planning. I'm perfectly willing to lay THIS issue at Amtrak's feet.

In closing, this particular problem is something that could be solved with just including an Amtrak commuincation manager. Amtrak wouldn't even have to hire a new person. Certainly "Julie" has someone on her staff that's bright enough to field e-mails between Amtrak and the long range (weeks???) freight coordinators.

The freight train companies plan WAY OUT (usually) for what they've gotta do to get their trains through.

Amtrak appears to simply "react."

That's sad.

ATM

 

[p&sr]

My wife and I BOOKED our very first long distance train trip from ROC to SAC last October, and the trip was supposed to take place --- departing from ROC on Jun 14, 2008 to arrive in SAC on June 17, 2008, and then back June 21 from SAC to ROC, arriving in ROC on June 25, 2008.
Does anyone have details about how the Amtrak TRAIN route is re-routed up through Wyoming, station stops, etc, and if ANY of it would involve deliberately planned bus substitution?

According to the Amtrak Reservation Website tonight, your Westbound trip is scheduled to go through the Rockies as planned. One day earlier would have by-passed through Wyoming. So assuming they finish up the track work on schedule, you should be fine. Likewise no problems anticipated for the return trip.

For trains that DO use the Wyoming By-pass, the routing is as follows:

North from Denver through Greeley CO and Borie WY (on the outskirts of Cheyenne), then over Sherman Hill (somewhere around 8000 ft elevation) to Laramie, Rawlins (a likely place for re-fueling the train), over the "continental divide" (basically a gentle hill at this point) to Rock Springs, then Green River (a possible rest stop, depending on schedules), Evanston, then following I-84 down beautiful Echo Canyon to Ogden Utah, and south from there to Salt Lake City. Basically the train follows I-80 across Wyoming. This is also the route of the original Transcontinental Railroad.

The scenery is basically of a "wild west" character, lots of open land, high elevation and fairly arid. Probably the longest interval (time or distance) between scheduled passenger stops anywhere on Amtrak.

No busses should be called for in any case.

Hoping everything works out just right, and you both have a wonderful trip!

 

[AlanB]

Closing the tunnel in the Rockies in June for repairs is not an "unanticptated event" (in this case) and I'm going to pleanty P***** if if this trip gets ****** up because of poor planning/communication with Amtrak's communicating with the freight line long-term planning. I'm perfectly willing to lay THIS issue at Amtrak's feet.
In closing, this particular problem is something that could be solved with just including an Amtrak commuincation manager. Amtrak wouldn't even have to hire a new person. Certainly "Julie" has someone on her staff that's bright enough to field e-mails between Amtrak and the long range (weeks???) freight coordinators.

The freight train companies plan WAY OUT (usually) for what they've gotta do to get their trains through.

Amtrak appears to simply "react."

That's sad.

ATM

Actually you probably don't get to blame Amtrak for this one! Sorry.

First, UP isn't exactly the best at communicating things either. Second, I doubt that UP really did have this planned long term, especially back in October when you booked. Even if they were planning to work on this line way back then, it would not surprise me at all to learn that they had scheduled the work for much earlier. But then was forced to delay it when they had to deploy the bulk of their track crews to Oregon to fix the damage caused by the mudslide back in January.

And if you have any doubt that UP can easily share the blame, if not take all of it. Look back about a year in our old posts. UP closed the Moffat Tunnel route last summer too, in fact I even mentioned the fact that I was detoured because of it. However, the work that caused my train to be detoured was originally scheduled for April. Then UP delayed it to May. Then they delayed it to June, and then finally into July.

Amtrak was forced to change its plans 4 different times. Make phone calls multiple times, first to tell people that they were going to be detoured, then call them back to tell them that they weren't being detoured. Then start with a new batch of people, only to turn around and call them back to tell them that there would be no detour. Amtrak wasted a fortune last year on phone calls and staff to deal with the multiple changes wrought by UP.

So no, I'm sorry, but I don't buy your statement that Amtrak screwed this one up. My monies on UP screwing this one up. And again, I'm betting that UP really had no choice either. What happened in Oregon is almost unprecedented in RR history.

There are many things that I'll blame Amtrak for or fault them for, but not this one.

 

[AlanB]

North from Denver through Greeley CO and Borie WY (on the outskirts of Cheyenne), then over Sherman Hill (somewhere around 8000 ft elevation) to Laramie, Rawlins (a likely place for re-fueling the train), over the "continental divide" (basically a gentle hill at this point) to Rock Springs, then Green River (a possible rest stop, depending on schedules), Evanston, then following I-84 down beautiful Echo Canyon to Ogden Utah, and south from there to Salt Lake City. Basically the train follows I-80 across Wyoming. This is also the route of the original Transcontinental Railroad.

The only planned stop is Green River where they change the Amtrak crew and pilot.

No refueling is done between Denver and Salt Lake.

And if anyone does end up on this detour, keep and eye out for Devil's Slide a very unigue rock formation west of Green River. Here's a photo that I got as we went by last July.

 

[gswager]

Wow, that's very unusual! I'm wondering how it was formed?

 

[AlanB]

Wow, that's very unusual! I'm wondering how it was formed?

You might find this page from the Utah government helpful in answering that question.

 

[Rafi]

I just spoke with reservations, since I'm booked on the Zephyr from Emeryville to Grand Junction, leaving June 14. I haven't gotten a call yet from anyone to address the track work, so in preparation I figured I'd call reservations and ask what was up (without revealing that I'm already booked—I'll wait for their call on that). Turns out there's track work scheduled in May and June, according to the rep I spoke with. She didn't give me the May dates (I mentioned I was looking to travel in June), but the June dates are as follows (as of this posting):

Eastbound: Detour via Wyoming between Salt Lake City and Denver, departing EMY from (inclusive) June 8-15*. No busses to intermediate stops have been scheduled yet (which may be why I haven't gotten a call yet).

Westbound: Detour via Wyoming between Denver and Salt Lake City, departing CHI from (inclusive) June 7-14. Busses have been scheduled to depart Denver on train arrival and to go to intermediate stops.

I have a few questions for anyone who's knowledgeable about how this detour has worked in the past:

-Have they bussed eastbound passengers in the past to the intermediate stops like Grand Junction? I assume the bus starts out of Salt Lake City, and given the 4 AM scheduled arrival, that's not going to be a fun transfer.

-Since I'm in a sleeper and have already paid, does anyone know if Amtrak may give me the option to just ride to Denver and let me handle it from there? I plan to ask, since getting up at 4 AM and losing the sleeper and meals for the day isn't my idea of convenience.

I realize the worst-case scenario is that Amtrak may NOT busstitute from Salt Lake and may offer to just drop me off there and refund the difference in sleeper/rail fare to Grand Junction, but I'd like to negotiate my way around that by suggesting they just send me to Denver and call it even (I'd probably just rent a car and drive to Grand Junction the next morning).

Anyway, figured it was worth asking if anyone has any first, second, or even third-hand experience.

Thanks,

Rafi

*I realize that Amtrak.com is allowing eastbound bookings on the 15th, but that's the info the agent gave me.

 

[jis]

For trains that DO use the Wyoming By-pass, the routing is as follows:
North from Denver through Greeley CO and Borie WY (on the outskirts of Cheyenne), then over Sherman Hill (somewhere around 8000 ft elevation) to Laramie, Rawlins (a likely place for re-fueling the train), over the "continental divide" (basically a gentle hill at this point) to Rock Springs, then Green River (a possible rest stop, depending on schedules), Evanston, then following I-84 down beautiful Echo Canyon to Ogden Utah, and south from there to Salt Lake City. Basically the train follows I-80 across Wyoming. This is also the route of the original Transcontinental Railroad.

You get to go over Sherman summit only if you happen to get to go on tracks 1 or 2, and the altitude is 8013'. If you get track 3 (Harriman Line) the highest you will ever get to is 7866'. Last year when Alan, I and several others traveled over this route we did get to go on track 2 I believe if I recall correctly. As I recall we also did get stuck at West Speer for a while awaiting a long freight to clear our crossover from 3 to 2 and onto the Overland Route. But we still arrived in SLC hours ahead of schedule.

 

[yarrow]

alan, above you tell how tunnel work was rescheduled several times last year. since the june dates for this year are announced and amtrak is booking as if the work is going to take place can one assume these dates are, all things being equal, firm?

 

[the_traveler]

IIRC from the past, they only provided buses from the westbound CZ at Denver - and only to Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction, not to any other stations like Fraser, Helper or Provo. There was no bus service that connected from the eastbound CZ at either SLC or Denver - except from Grand Junction and Glenwood Springs for passengers going east!

 

[AlanB]

alan, above you tell how tunnel work was rescheduled several times last year. since the june dates for this year are announced and amtrak is booking as if the work is going to take place can one assume these dates are, all things being equal, firm?

I'd say that things are looking pretty much like it's going to happen, but I still wouldn't hold my breath either. There is always a chance that UP will delay the start or the length of the work. If I were laying odds, I'd guess that there's about an 80% chance that this is firm.

 

[AlanB]

PS. Patrick, I think that going around Tehachapi would be far more spectacular (not to mention rarer), than the CZ detour through Wyoming.

Probably safer, too. In Wyoming you never know if Dick Cheney might be lurking about with his shotgun.

And mistake the CZ for a deer.

Or a lawyer! :lol:

Actually he's already taken his best shot at Amtrak, and he missed with the zero dollar budget.

 

[Rafi]

Just as a followup, I finally learned today what Amtrak's doing with my reservation.

Just to recap, I'm booked on the Zephyr from Emeryville to Grand Junction, departing on 6/14, which falls in the detour timeframe. This morning, on a whim, I swiped my Guest Rewards card in a Quik-Trak kiosk at Union Station just to see what was on my upcoming trips screen, went to the detail screen for my EMY-GJT trip, and it took me two double takes to realize that my EMY-GJT trip had silently turned into an EMY-DEN trip!

I called Reservations when I got to my office, gave them my reservation number, played dumb, and asked if they could email me my trip itinerary because "I was having a hard time finding it in my inbox." 30 seconds later, and the emailed itinerary confirmed the stealth change. What was once EMY-GJT in 0632/5 was now listed as EMY-DEN in 0631/4! Slightly closer to the bathroom, but I'm not complaining, and no additional charges were added.

When I got home, lo and behold I found a voicemail left today at 3:13 PM from reservations stating that the Zephyr was detouring on my travel date and they could only take me to Denver. Again, not complaining. <grin> They offered to change my date of travel at no charge if I wanted to pick a day when the Zephyr would not be detouring. Since I need to be in GJ for a meeting, though, odds are I'm going to just rent a car and drive once I arrive in Denver. Can't wait!

-Rafi

 

[AlanB]

Interesting that they aren't going to provide a bus to Grand Junction like they've done in the past.

Sounds just like another cost cutting move again, a la the Coast Starlight from January. Only this time Amtrak has plenty of warning to arrange bus service. Instead, it's let's just dump people where ever, it doesn't really matter that they actually have a confirmed reservation and that they've paid their money to go to that stop.

And don't misunderstand me, I realize that buses cost money. Money that Amtrak doesn't really have. It's really too bad that in cases like this, where there is scheduled track work, that Amtrak can't bill the freight Co for the buses. But that still doesn't change the fact that Amtrak should be providing alternative transportation at least to those who've already booked and paid for their trip. I have no problem with them cutting off future reservations to those stops, but abandoning people isn't the correct answer, when one wants to build customer loyalty and increase ridership.

 

[p&sr]

Interesting that they aren't going to provide a bus to Grand Junction like they've done in the past.

According to the Amtrak Reservations Website, they DO offer a bus from Denver to Glenwood Springs and to Grand Junction for WESTBOUND passengers on the CZ for those dates, with the notice that the bus is now "sold out". Presumably they made room for those with existing tickets but nobody else.

For EASTBOUND passengers, it appears that they are out of luck. Amtrak just suggests deferring the trip for a week, otherwise says there's nothing they can do.

Not very imaginative of them, as you point out.

 

[Rail Freak]

Interesting that they aren't going to provide a bus to Grand Junction like they've done in the past.

According to the Amtrak Reservations Website, they DO offer a bus from Denver to Glenwood Springs and to Grand Junction for WESTBOUND passengers on the CZ for those dates, with the notice that the bus is now "sold out". Presumably they made room for those with existing tickets but nobody else.

For EASTBOUND passengers, it appears that they are out of luck. Amtrak just suggests deferring the trip for a week, otherwise says there's nothing they can do.

Not very imaginative of them, as you point out.

OK, My EB on CZ is disrupted in SLC. I don't want BUS service or detour, I want what I paid for??????????????? :angry: