NJTransit replacement for Arrow III EMUs

[jis]

It is now official. Quoting from NJTransit's August Board Agenda:

NJ TRANSIT will replace these outdated Arrow III vehicles with new Multilevel Power Cars (MPCs). These self propelled rail cars will feature all of the customer amenities that are provided on the existing multilevel fleet including two by two seating, but will also include onboard propulsion that will allow the cars to operate without a locomotive.
The MPCs will be mixed with the current fleet of Multilevels to provide self-propelled train sets without locomotives. Since these new train sets will utilize rail cars from existing fleet, there are significant capital cost advantages to these new MPC vehicles versus replacement of the Arrow III fleet on a car for car basis.

The Board meeting has an agenda item for engaging LTK to modify the previous EMU proposal to be based on MPCs and it is expected that a bidding process for very significant number of such MPCs will open in the near future.

NJTransit has finally come around to EMUs! Yeah!

 

[Train2104]

"utilize rail cars from the existing fleet"??? So that means this procurement is for the conversion of MLV's to EMUs, and not for new MLV-EMU's?

 

[AutoTrDvr]

It is now official. Quoting from NJTransit's August Board Agenda:

NJ TRANSIT will replace these outdated Arrow III vehicles with new Multilevel Power Cars (MPCs). These self propelled rail cars will feature all of the customer amenities that are provided on the existing multilevel fleet including two by two seating, but will also include onboard propulsion that will allow the cars to operate without a locomotive.
The MPCs will be mixed with the current fleet of Multilevels to provide self-propelled train sets without locomotives. Since these new train sets will utilize rail cars from existing fleet, there are significant capital cost advantages to these new MPC vehicles versus replacement of the Arrow III fleet on a car for car basis.

The Board meeting has an agenda item for engaging LTK to modify the previous EMU proposal to be based on MPCs and it is expected that a bidding process for very significant number of such MPCs will open in the near future.

NJTransit has finally come around to EMUs! Yeah!

Does each MPC unit have its own pan, or do they share pans as with Arrow III sets of more than two? Just curious... It might be the answer for the Dinky Shuttle.

Wow, that's the end of an era (re: Arrow IIIs). Of course, I remember the reaaaallly old Pullman like green EMUs. First train I ever rode.

 

[Trogdor]

"utilize rail cars from the existing fleet"??? So that means this procurement is for the conversion of MLV's to EMUs, and not for new MLV-EMU's?

No. The release said the trains would operate with a mix of new cars and cars from the current fleet (existing MLVs).

 

[jis]

"utilize rail cars from the existing fleet"??? So that means this procurement is for the conversion of MLV's to EMUs, and not for new MLV-EMU's?

Well, yes and no. The new MPCs will not be conversions from existing MLVs. They will be new cars using essentially the same shell as the current MLVs. There will be order for something like 50 - 100 MPCs, the exact number is not known at present, at least publicly. Then existing MLV trailers and cab cars will be mixed with MPCs to create EMU consists of the length needed. Potentially MPCs can be mixed into loco hauled trains too to enhance performance specially for long trains. For low traffic lines they will also be significant energy savers since it will become possible to have two and three car trains without requiring a full blown locomotive with it.

I am happy to see NJT finally take a novel and seemingly effective approach to address multiple issues that needed addressing. Of course the fact that FRA has decided to drop the more rfrequent inspection for power units provided they have diagnostic systems built in, certainly helped in arriving at this decision too. That has been ne of the arguments against using EMUs and things like MPCs in the past.

They had actually told us at the NJ-ARP Patrons Luncheon about this back in March or April, but had asked us not to discuss too publicly until things became a bit more definite.

 

[jis]

Does each MPC unit have its own pan, or do they share pans as with Arrow III sets of more than two? Just curious... It might be the answer for the Dinky Shuttle.

Wow, that's the end of an era (re: Arrow IIIs). Of course, I remember the reaaaallly old Pullman like green EMUs. First train I ever rode.

Each MPC will have its own pan. There will be no sharing of pans between multiple MPCs (no married pairs). FRA frowns upon HV jumpers from one car to another so they will stay away from such. There will be no single car units possible since the MPCs will not have cab at each end. If they have at least one cab (which I suspect is the case) then two car sets will be possible (what the Brits would characterize as DM+DT - DM = Driving Motor, DT = Driving Trailer). More typical probably be a string of DM+T+(D)T (T = Trailer).

The Arrows will be around for at least another 4 or 5 years. 160 are being refurbished, and the rest being scrapped at present.

 

[gswager]

If you have 2 car length, then it would be EMU and a car.

3 car length- 2 EMUs and a car.

4 car length- 2 EMUs and 2 cars.

Am I right?

 

[jis]

If you have 2 car length, then it would be EMU and a car.

3 car length- 2 EMUs and a car.

4 car length- 2 EMUs and 2 cars.

Am I right?

Not necessarily. I have no idea what the term EMU means in the above so hard to figure out.

But using more used notation a 3 car train would most likely be DM+T+DT, only 1 MPC, 1 MLV trailer and 1 MLV cab car. 4 car could either be DM+T+T+DM or DM+T+T+DT, depending on how many horses they are able to stuff in an MPC using latest power electronics.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

If you have 2 car length, then it would be EMU and a car.

3 car length- 2 EMUs and a car.

4 car length- 2 EMUs and 2 cars.

Am I right?

Not necessarily. I have no idea what the term EMU means in the above so hard to figure out.

But using more used notation a 3 car train would most likely be DM+T+DT, only 1 MPC, 1 MLV trailer and 1 MLV cab car. 4 car could either be DM+T+T+DM or DM+T+T+DT, depending on how many horses they are able to stuff in an MPC using latest power electronics.

My point in asking (not that it's really important) was to determine how many pans would be drawing power. With the Arrow's, at least two pans are usually drawing power. With a train powered by a single ALP-44 (now ALP-46s), the HEP would be lost, temporarily when passing through a phase gap (does not seem to happen with an Arrow consist due to multiple pans). There are three phase gaps along the Morris/Essex Line on NJ Transit.

 

[jis]

If you have 2 car length, then it would be EMU and a car.

3 car length- 2 EMUs and a car.

4 car length- 2 EMUs and 2 cars.

Am I right?

Not necessarily. I have no idea what the term EMU means in the above so hard to figure out.

But using more used notation a 3 car train would most likely be DM+T+DT, only 1 MPC, 1 MLV trailer and 1 MLV cab car. 4 car could either be DM+T+T+DM or DM+T+T+DT, depending on how many horses they are able to stuff in an MPC using latest power electronics.

My point in asking (not that it's really important) was to determine how many pans would be drawing power. With the Arrow's, at least two pans are usually drawing power. With a train powered by a single ALP-44 (now ALP-46s), the HEP would be lost, temporarily when passing through a phase gap (does not seem to happen with an Arrow consist due to multiple pans). There are three phase gaps along the Morris/Essex Line on NJ Transit.

First an explanation of the reason that you do not perceive hotel power loss in Arrow IIIs. It has nothing to do with how many pans are up. You don't perceive a loss because in Arrow IIIs power is regenned while coasting to provide hotel power if there is no line power. Secondly, the regenned power actually feeds only lights and other low consumption items. It does not feed HVAC.

There never is a connection between two EMU units of their hotel power systems. There is potential for serious problems when power is fed from two sources drawing power from two different phases as would happen as a train crosses a phase gap, specially if hotel power is drawn from a tap of the main transformer, as is the case in the Arrows. Each unit within a consists is completely self contained and electrically isolated, supplying its own hotel power from its own power feed.

Typically in modern coaching stock there is enough battery backup to supply power for lighting for several minutes so in a properly maintained car like the MLV you should not see loss of light when passing across a phase gap, but HVAC will drop because there is not enough battery capacity to keep them running. In other countries there are examples of coaches that have more massive batteries that allow the coaches to be self-generating through axle driven alternators while in motion, and when stopped there is enough battery power to supply the whole system for as long as half an hour.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

First an explanation of the reason that you do not perceive hotel power loss in Arrow IIIs. It has nothing to do with how many pans are up. You don't perceive a loss because in Arrow IIIs power is regenned while coasting to provide hotel power if there is no line power. Secondly, the regenned power actually feeds only lights and other low consumption items. It does not feed HVAC.

Someday, I'll get you to tell me how that works (i.e. "regenning").

There never is a connection between two EMU units of their hotel power systems. There is potential for serious problems when power is fed from two sources drawing power from two different phases as would happen as a train crosses a phase gap, specially if hotel power is drawn from a tap of the main transformer, as is the case in the Arrows. Each unit within a consists is completely self contained and electrically isolated, supplying its own hotel power from its own power feed.

Typically in modern coaching stock there is enough battery backup to supply power for lighting for several minutes so in a properly maintained car like the MLV you should not see loss of light when passing across a phase gap, but HVAC will drop because there is not enough battery capacity to keep them running. In other countries there are examples of coaches that have more massive batteries that allow the coaches to be self-generating through axle driven alternators while in motion, and when stopped there is enough battery power to supply the whole system for as long as half an hour.

I have seen that with the new NJ Transit MLVs. The lights only dim slightly, but the HVAC does seem to take a while to return.

Thanks much. :hi:

 

[Nathanael]

Of course the fact that FRA has decided to drop the more rfrequent inspection for power units provided they have diagnostic systems built in, certainly helped in arriving at this decision too.

This regulatory change should be a big deal for passenger rail lines throughout the country, actually. It tilts the balance towards EMUs, which is a good thing.

Here's an NJT question about the new multilevel power cars: will they have the capability to switch frequencies (25Hz vs 60Hz AC power) on the fly? The inability of the Arrows to switch frequencies outside the shop created a lot of restrictions on vehicle assignment and discouraged the conversion of the NEC to 60Hz power; so if the new NJT power cars can do the switch, it opens up the opportunity for Amtrak to slowly get rid of all those frequency converters.

 

[AlanB]

The inability of the Arrows to switch frequencies outside the shop created a lot of restrictions on vehicle assignment and discouraged the conversion of the NEC to 60Hz power; so if the new NJT power cars can do the switch, it opens up the opportunity for Amtrak to slowly get rid of all those frequency converters.

My understanding of things, thanks to some help from PRR60, is that Amtrak is committed to all those frequency converters. With or without NJT's ARROW's and their power issues, Amtrak will never convert to 60MHz. Doing so would force Amtrak to essentially abandon the nearly mulit-Billion dollar solid state facility that they built a few years back in Richmond. That investment is so huge that it committed them to 25MHz pretty much forever. Unless some benefactor comes along and says "hey, here's a couple hundred Billion so that you can throw away the old stuff."

 

[jis]

My understanding of things, thanks to some help from PRR60, is that Amtrak is committed to all those frequency converters. With or without NJT's ARROW's and their power issues, Amtrak will never convert to 60MHz. Doing so would force Amtrak to essentially abandon the nearly mulit-Billion dollar solid state facility that they built a few years back in Richmond. That investment is so huge that it committed them to 25MHz pretty much forever. Unless some benefactor comes along and says "hey, here's a couple hundred Billion so that you can throw away the old stuff."

25MHz above should be 25Hz, and 60MHz should be 60Hz.

 

[jis]

Here's an NJT question about the new multilevel power cars: will they have the capability to switch frequencies (25Hz vs 60Hz AC power) on the fly? The inability of the Arrows to switch frequencies outside the shop created a lot of restrictions on vehicle assignment and discouraged the conversion of the NEC to 60Hz power; so if the new NJT power cars can do the switch, it opens up the opportunity for Amtrak to slowly get rid of all those frequency converters.

So one more time to correct the surprisingly common misconception....

The Arrow IIIs have never had a problem changing on the fly from 25Hz to 60Hz or vice versa (as long as no voltage change was involved), indeed they did that every day many times when they operated to Long Branch before the voltage on the Matawan - Long Branch section was upped from 12.5kV to 25kV.

What they cannot do without getting shopped is convert from 12kV to 25kV, , which involves changing a tap on the secondary side of the HV transformer. Ironically the transformers themselves in those units have the built in capability, but the corresponding control system is absent in those cars.

Of course anything that runs on 25Hz using a DC link will more or less automatically work fine on 60Hz (but not the other way round - i.e. something that is not specifically designed to work on 25Hz will not work on 25Hz).

The new MPCs will of course be able to convert on the fly from 12kV to 25kV and vice versa. Afterall the electrical gear will most likely be very similar to the one used in locos like ALP46A, only smaller since they will be half the power or less.

I am almost certain that Arrow's capabilities was a complete non-factor in Amtrak's decision on what line frequency to use on the NEC.

 

[Ryan]

First an explanation of the reason that you do not perceive hotel power loss in Arrow IIIs. It has nothing to do with how many pans are up. You don't perceive a loss because in Arrow IIIs power is regenned while coasting to provide hotel power if there is no line power. Secondly, the regenned power actually feeds only lights and other low consumption items. It does not feed HVAC.

Someday, I'll get you to tell me how that works (i.e. "regenning").

Simply put, the wheels turn a generator that makes electricity to work the lights.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

First an explanation of the reason that you do not perceive hotel power loss in Arrow IIIs. It has nothing to do with how many pans are up. You don't perceive a loss because in Arrow IIIs power is regenned while coasting to provide hotel power if there is no line power. Secondly, the regenned power actually feeds only lights and other low consumption items. It does not feed HVAC.

Someday, I'll get you to tell me how that works (i.e. "regenning").

Simply put, the wheels turn a generator that makes electricity to work the lights.

OK, now I understand. Thanks. I'm curious, then, as to why HEP based pax. cars (e.g. "Comets") don't have at least a small generator just to keep the lights on, similarly, during a phase gap. It would seem the new MLV cars have batteries for this. I guess it would have been too expensive when they were designed for HEP use.

 

[jis]

First an explanation of the reason that you do not perceive hotel power loss in Arrow IIIs. It has nothing to do with how many pans are up. You don't perceive a loss because in Arrow IIIs power is regenned while coasting to provide hotel power if there is no line power. Secondly, the regenned power actually feeds only lights and other low consumption items. It does not feed HVAC.

Someday, I'll get you to tell me how that works (i.e. "regenning").

Simply put, the wheels turn a generator that makes electricity to work the lights.

OK, now I understand. Thanks. I'm curious, then, as to why HEP based pax. cars (e.g. "Comets") don't have at least a small generator just to keep the lights on, similarly, during a phase gap. It would seem the new MLV cars have batteries for this. I guess it would have been too expensive when they were designed for HEP use.

HEP generator in trailer cars is an overkill for just keeping things going across phase gaps. All that is needed is heftier batteries and appropriate lighting circuits with appropriate controls as found in the MLVs. Even Viewliners have substantially better lighting coverage when HEP is down than cars that predate them. It is possible that in the past the tendency in US was not to particularly care about passenger experience since for many years I think it was believed that passenger trains will just slowly disappear and there is no need to really worry about passenger comfort. Things have changed since then and the effect is visible.

 

[Anderson]

...and now I'm hearing that Amtrak has a really low clockspeed. Last computer I had that only went 60 MHz was back in the early 90s...geez, get with the times!

(j/k...I know what is being talked about)

 

[Nathanael]

The inability of the Arrows to switch frequencies outside the shop created a lot of restrictions on vehicle assignment and discouraged the conversion of the NEC to 60Hz power; so if the new NJT power cars can do the switch, it opens up the opportunity for Amtrak to slowly get rid of all those frequency converters.

My understanding of things, thanks to some help from PRR60, is that Amtrak is committed to all those frequency converters. With or without NJT's ARROW's and their power issues, Amtrak will never convert to 60MHz. Doing so would force Amtrak to essentially abandon the nearly mulit-Billion dollar solid state facility that they built a few years back in Richmond. That investment is so huge that it committed them to 25MHz pretty much forever. Unless some benefactor comes along and says "hey, here's a couple hundred Billion so that you can throw away the old stuff."

I'm still sure they're going to convert to 60 Hz in the New York City area sooner or later -- probably sometime after the track reconfigurations currently planned on the west end of Penn Station. The island of 25Hz around Penn Station causes nothing but trouble for Metro-North's "Penn Station Access" plans, and Metro-North has an unfortunate number of different systems to deal with already. It's not in the current plans, but I expect New York State or Metro-North to push for it, rather than having to buy a new fleet of trains which handles three or four different electrification systems. Keeping 25Hz in the Penn Station area due to the investment in the Sunnyside Yard frequency converter in 1993 is making a "sunk costs" fallacy.

There's no pressing reason to convert the Philadelphia area, or indeed anything west/south of Hackensack.

 

[AlanB]

I'm still sure they're going to convert to 60 Hz in the New York City area sooner or later -- probably sometime after the track reconfigurations currently planned on the west end of Penn Station. The island of 25Hz around Penn Station causes nothing but trouble for Metro-North's "Penn Station Access" plans, and Metro-North has an unfortunate number of different systems to deal with already. It's not in the current plans, but I expect New York State or Metro-North to push for it, rather than having to buy a new fleet of trains which handles three or four different electrification systems.

And Amtrak is still sure that they won't be converting, which is why they keep spending still more money, including Stimulus funds to improve the current system.

Keeping 25Hz in the Penn Station area due to the investment in the Sunnyside Yard frequency converter in 1993 is making a "sunk costs" fallacy.

Richmond isn't in Sunnyside yard. Richmond is located just north, RR east of Philly and it supplies half the power to the NEC. One doesn't throw that away!

 

[jis]

I'm still sure they're going to convert to 60 Hz in the New York City area sooner or later -- probably sometime after the track reconfigurations currently planned on the west end of Penn Station. The island of 25Hz around Penn Station causes nothing but trouble for Metro-North's "Penn Station Access" plans, and Metro-North has an unfortunate number of different systems to deal with already. It's not in the current plans, but I expect New York State or Metro-North to push for it, rather than having to buy a new fleet of trains which handles three or four different electrification systems. Keeping 25Hz in the Penn Station area due to the investment in the Sunnyside Yard frequency converter in 1993 is making a "sunk costs" fallacy.

There are no plans or funding to convert 25Hz to 60Hz in Penn Station. Anything is of course possible, but in the broader scheme of things this is a very very low priority item. It is easier for Metro-North to simply use push-pull sets with leased engines from NJT or Amtrak or third rail DC, than converting Penn Station to 60Hz. No one other than Metro North has the problem and their current plans do not require conversion.

Of course if Metro-North comes up with the several 10s of millions needed to do the conversion it is a different story. But they are not exactly floating on money either, and they do not currently plan to fund any conversion. Their current plan is to equip a few M8s with dual shoes and extend LIRR third rail to Gate so that they can come to gate using overhead 60Hz and then enter Penn Station on third rail DC power.

 

[AlanB]

Their current plan is to equip a few M8s with dual shoes and extend LIRR third rail to Gate so that they can come to gate using overhead 60Hz and then enter Penn Station on third rail DC power.

Of course all of that depends on Amtrak actually opening the gate and letting them in. :lol: :lol:

 

[jis]

Their current plan is to equip a few M8s with dual shoes and extend LIRR third rail to Gate so that they can come to gate using overhead 60Hz and then enter Penn Station on third rail DC power.

Of course all of that depends on Amtrak actually opening the gate and letting them in. :lol: :lol:

Yes, except that it is either Amtrak or LIRR that can open the gate. :lol:

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Their current plan is to equip a few M8s with dual shoes and extend LIRR third rail to Gate so that they can come to gate using overhead 60Hz and then enter Penn Station on third rail DC power.

Of course all of that depends on Amtrak actually opening the gate and letting them in. :lol: :lol:

Yes, except that it is either Amtrak or LIRR that can open the gate. :lol:

Or just get an 18-wheeler to plow thru the gate. They don't seem to have any problems with that.