non-fiscal reasons why Amtrak has its share of enemies

[NE933]

I just noticed that Rollerblade skating has almost disappeared in its former popularity. So I read various sites to find out why, after all, it's no more dangerous than a bicycle, or skate boarding. The answer was a surprise, yet familiar one: it's not 'cool', it's 'dorky'. How many times has this argument been used against train travel, especially overnight journeys. Sleeper cars are outdated, and the social norms propagated by leadership examples in Wisconsin and tea party baggers took it upon themselves to establish social norms on my behalf. Taking a train 24

+ hours is stupid, unamerican, socialist, communist, anti-democratic... you'd think they're talking about something that causes diabetes for Christ's sake. So that's how some decisions are made, in policy and budget. Screw the merit parts of it, if it's uncool or dorky, it's doomed. Lines of divisiveness are drawn on who should pay for someone else's passion for something dorky, or too outdated. If that's the case, why don't we get rid of kite flying, baseball, and frisbee too? Let's have a popularity contest of who can get hunched backs the fastest by the overuse of smartphones and portable laptops? Maybe life itself has become too dorky and all of us should just take a couple of cynaide pills and let our creator settle it?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Talking with my non rail friends, most of them tend to see LD travel as basically cool.

 

[darien-l]

As someone who's tried introducing friends, in the late 20s-early 30s age group, to long-distance train travel, particularly in sleeper cars, I can offer a few comments on this. My efforts were met with mixed results, and some of the reasons why LD trains were perceived as "uncool" or "dorky" were:

* Lack of wi-fi. This is a huge issue to the younger generation, who is accustomed to being connected. Even Greyhound has wi-fi on most of its buses nowadays, but it's virtually non-existent on LD trains. Coast Starlight is sort-of an exception, but wi-fi is only available in the Parlour Car through nothing more than a smartphone, so it's pretty much non-existent outside of populated areas.

* 70's style décor (wall carpeting, etc.) in all Superliner 2s and many Superliner 1 sleeper cars. The refurbished Superliner 1s are nice, except for one big problem -- inability to turn off the PA inside sleeper compartments. Mandatory PA announcements at 6 am are not cool.

* General state of cleanliness. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it leaves a lot to be desired (overflowing trash bins, nasty bathrooms, dirty floors, etc., and this is in the "high-end" sleeper cars).

* Service. Very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it's fantastic, sometimes grumpy, slow, rude, and abrupt, particularly in the dining car. Waiting for an hour for a mediocre meal from a rude server is not cool.

* Delays. Constantly being stuck behind freight trains, waiting in sidings, or slow orders due to signal problems or track work are not cool.

* A non-intuitive pricing system. Railfare and sleeper accommodations are charged separately, leading to a lot of confusion. Most people don't realize that purchasing a sleeper automatically results in the lowest-bucket railfare, or that they don't run a risk of being assigned a "roommate" if a single person purchases a sleeper, or that sharing a sleeper with a friend results in considerable savings, or that meals are included with the sleeper. There is also a lot of confusion about whether sleepers constitute "first class" or not, which can be a considerable impediment to business travel -- many corporations and most government entities prohibit "first class" travel without a valid reason. Amtrak can certainly do a much better job of addressing these concerns.

* Sleeper car clientele consisting mostly of retirees. I know it's something of a sensitive issue and a chicken-and-egg problem, but it does not project a "cool" or "hip" image to the younger generation. A more diverse passenger base would help a lot, but they are often dissuaded by the issues listed above.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of train travel, and enjoy it tremendously. Still, I have to agree that there are a lot of issues that Amtrak needs to address to improve the perception of LD train travel, particularly in sleepers.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I think you're overthinking the issue. The main reason people don't take the train is that they can get there faster (and sometimes cheaper) by flying or they like to drive their own car. I doubt if "trains are dorkey" enters into most people's thinking.

 

[crescent2]

I agree with Mike. And I'll add, I don't think I personally know anyone who decides something is cool or uncool based on what a politician of any persuasion or party does, or who thinks train travel is unamerican, communist, or whatever; not sure where you're coming from with all that. What their friends and peers are doing matters, and I think entertainers and sports stars (the cool people) have far more influence there.

I don't know about rollerblading, but I know what kind of purses and watches are out and in (mine are mostly out!), and iPhones are the only cool ones around.

Most of my friends, young and older, are amazed to learn that passenger trains still exist. Other than the lack of availability of trains in my area, the time factor would be the most likely one to keep them from traveling on a train.

 

[gmushial]

I just noticed that Rollerblade skating has almost disappeared in its former popularity. So I read various sites to find out why, after all, it's no more dangerous than a bicycle, or skate boarding. The answer was a surprise, yet familiar one: it's not 'cool', it's 'dorky'. How many times has this argument been used against train travel, especially overnight journeys. Sleeper cars are outdated, and the social norms propagated by leadership examples in Wisconsin and tea party baggers took it upon themselves to establish social norms on my behalf. Taking a train 24 + hours is stupid, unamerican, socialist, communist, anti-democratic... you'd think they're talking about something that causes diabetes for Christ's sake. So that's how some decisions are made, in policy and budget. Screw the merit parts of it, if it's uncool or dorky, it's doomed. Lines of divisiveness are drawn on who should pay for someone else's passion for something dorky, or too outdated. If that's the case, why don't we get rid of kite flying, baseball, and frisbee too? Let's have a popularity contest of who can get hunched backs the fastest by the overuse of smartphones and portable laptops? Maybe life itself has become too dorky and all of us should just take a couple of cynaide pills and let our creator settle it?

Maybe such is merely projection on their part, ie, they couldn't imagine taking a train, and of course they believe they're the reference for all things good, therefore doing such must be uncool, dorky etc... but I will point out that this is also one of the clinical characteristics of schizophrenia [or at least schizoid personality disorder and deeper] - go read a DSM III or later. So, the question becomes: do you really want to allow such people to decide for you what's appropriate, or not? Hint: no.

 

[VentureForth]

Everyone I try to convert, is interested, but with Jet Blue now serving Savannah, he converted back.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Usual conversation re: train travel. " Oh, so you ride trains all over the country: I didn't know you could do that. Where do you find a train station in Ohio? Where can I buy tickets? How much does it cost? Sounds interesting, how long does it take to get to NY,,L.A. etc? Oh, that is too long for me. Maybe I will try that someday? but for now I would just fly.. Have a nice trip..

 

[Silver Star rider]

I am going solo to WDW this September. All of a sudden a cousin started to ask me info about my trip, till she heard about I was going via train. She has no interest in train travel. I rather entertain myself, then worry about entertaining someone else. I rather do what I want, when I want to.

Bruce-SSR

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . some of the reasons why LD trains were perceived as "uncool" :

* Lack of wi-fi. This is a huge issue . . .

Huge issue. It needs even more emphasis, tho I do credit Amtrak with moving fairly well on Wi-Fi

* 70's style décor (wall carpeting, etc.) . . .

At a certain point, new cars should be ordered by the hundreds.

We passed that point some while back.

* Mandatory PA announcements at 6 am are not cool.

Not cool.

* General state of cleanliness. . . . nasty bathrooms . . .

Unforgivable.

* Service. Very hit-or-miss. . . . sometimes grumpy, slow, rude, and abrupt. . .

One bad instance can ruin the whole experience, and retold to 25 others.

* Delays. . . .

Here is when the PA system should be used, to give information to the paying passengers.

* A non-intuitive pricing system. Railfare and sleeper accommodations are charged separately, leading to a lot of confusion. Most people don't realize that purchasing a sleeper automatically results in the lowest-bucket railfare, or that they don't run a risk of being assigned a "roommate" if a single person purchases a sleeper, or that sharing a sleeper with a friend results in considerable savings, or that meals are included with the sleeper. There is also a lot of confusion about whether sleepers constitute "first class" or not. . . many corporations and most government entities prohibit "first class" travel without a valid reason.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Darien-I, you should be part of all of Amtrak's customer focus group sessions.

Uh, don't they hold focus group sessions?

 

[Anderson]

I've been able to make a fair number of converts. My usual trick has generally been to book a roomette RVR-NYP and use that as an intro trip. Breakfast or lunch in the diner on the way up (and/or lunch/dinner on the way back) often sells Amtrak immensely well.

 

[PRae_Train]

The usual response to me in the five years I've been traveling cross-country by Amtrak is essentially "Cool ! ! Wish I had the time to do that! How nice to see the country that way! Someday I want to do that."

This from young and old.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Most of my friends are in late 20s/early 30s.. whenever I have brought up Amtrak as a means of transport, the questions I get are-

1) Is it faster than driving/taking the bus? Me: "Umm.. no. SJC to LAX will take 10 hours". Them: LOL.. not doing it.

2) Is it cheaper? Me: "Umm.. no." Them: LOL.. not doing it.

Some of them had shown interest in Amtrak as a land-cruise vacation after I showed them pictures of my EM and CS rides, but the time, cost and especially the uncertainty have drawn them away. (all working people, can't afford to spend additional overnight in CHI/SEA/PDX because Amtrak again got a gazillion hours late)

 

[ayezee]

I think you're overthinking the issue. The main reason people don't take the train is that they can get there faster (and sometimes cheaper) by flying or they like to drive their own car. I doubt if "trains are dorkey" enters into most people's thinking.

I'm a big fan of Amtrak but my dad and I can get from South Carolina to where we are going in Pennsylvania a lot quicker by driving. Sad part is we live about an hour from an Amtrak station but our destination would require a two plus hour car trip. When we added up the traffic plus the train headaches it was simple drive. Sadly!

 

[JayPea]

I've had several people say that train travel sounds fun to them, but so far as I know none of them have ever taken a trip. Here many people don't realize Amtrak even stops anywhere in the area. (The closest station is in Spokane, 55 miles from here). The one person I've talked to about Amtrak who has no interest in train travel at all is my sister. But she's full of strange ideas, so I discount her. :lol: After all, she once took an 8 or so hour bus trip from my town back to Seattle, and enjoyed every minute of it. :wacko:

 

[caravanman]

NE993 often seems to think "outside the box"... which I find stimulates my own grey matter!

There seems to be an extrordinary pressure in America to make money and save time. Taking the train is a lifestyle decision that can cost you time and money, a bit like buying organic rather than factory food... often more expensive. From an enviromental view it is less damaging than most alternatives.

I don't exactly subscribe to "big brother" conspiracy theories, but motor manufacturers, oil companies, airlines, etc all make more money if less people

travel by train...Dismantling any bus/tram/light rail integrated serices will make it harder and so less cool to even get to a train. I feel it's not so much about cool, as about convenience and ease. A nice clean frequent train service is much more "cool" than a single option train that may arrive in your town at 3am once a night. Despite "fracking" there IS a finite amount of oil, use of which is anyway overheating the planet. Train travel may become cool again in the future, when we honestly look at the true price of car ownership.

Ed

 

[andersone]

Everyone knows I don't fly (i did last year for the first time in 20 years,,, and the ***** ruined it) and when I tell folks that I am taking She Who Must Be Obeyed to Glacier on the train they all go "that's neat" but nobody wants to join us,,,,,

My daughter heard us talking about hour trip (she is a 30 something) and when i proposed we overnight to Glenwood Springs this winter as opposed to our usual "hook up in Chicago" ( she live in Iowa) she went all in. In the process of making the reservations now,,,,,, remember the principle of the Algerian revolution: convert one, they convert one,,,,, gads starting to sound like organized religion now,,,,

 

[njulian]

Interesting discussion. I find people who do not want to travel by train fall into two categories.

Time: Planes are always much quicker.

Moneylanes are often much cheaper (with LD and having a sleeper, always)

I like the idea of trains being the organic version of travel. I think the cool factor might come into it. I rode the Surfliner and it was a pleasure, smooth ride, up to date car and bright and cheery decor(maybe i lucked out on the San Diego to Anaheim trip, because I also recall a Surfliner that was creaky, dingy and gross).

If they could upgrade the decor and cleanliness and improve online performance (and weed out some surly employees), it would be easier to convert folks. Nearly everyone agrees that plane travel sucks. Taking out the fear factor, the entire process is awful. Hordes of shoeless people shuffling through xray things with even surlier than AMTRAK employees analyzing them, piling their belongings in what looks like restaurant bussing tubs to be xrayed, boarding cramped metal tubes with not one inch of legroom, and heaven forbid if you are at the window and have to somehow get out into the aisle. Planes have plenty of delays as well (in a much more uncomfortable environment than trains) and odd mechanical things like landing gear that won't drop, and escape slides that inflate out of the blue and risk of a bird or two taking you down.

If AMTRAK could spiff up some defects they could be 'cool' again and those who fly would be dorky.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

When I travel I do it for enjoyment. Driving hasn't been enjoyable since I "upgraded" to an SUV, and flying is an example of masochism. So it's train or bus. Other options are unpalatable.

 

[gmushial]

The usual response to me in the five years I've been traveling cross-country by Amtrak is essentially "Cool ! ! Wish I had the time to do that! How nice to see the country that way! Someday I want to do that."

This from young and old.

That's more or less been my experience in telling people of my Amtrak sojourns... and with the result of maybe 1 in 5 actually giving the experience a try.

 

[gmushial]

When I travel I do it for enjoyment. Driving hasn't been enjoyable since I "upgraded" to an SUV, and flying is an example of masochism. So it's train or bus. Other options are unpalatable.

Taking Amtrak for us is like taking a vacation, but instead of staying in a single place, going somewhere while on vacation... but in terms of driving: yes, the car/vehicle really makes a difference - the wife in the wrong car either won't go, or has to get out and walk every hour or so, and all said and done, would really rather not go. But then, a handful of years ago after we sold off a piece of land that we'd been holding for some time, we took a fling and bought an old bmw z3 roadster... I love to drive it, have no problem with 10, 12, 13 hour days, and most importantly, for her, other than gas stops, she is absolutely comfortable: last Christmas we drove down to Death Valley for a week of camping and hiking; for springbreak (she's a college instructor), we drove down to Grand Canyon for likewise - and these are typically a straight shot back and forth, leaving the maximal time at the location to noodle around. Before that we've done multiple 3k and 4k mile trips to the four corners area; up to the Pacific NW, Yellowstone and the Tetons etc... next weekend we'll do a 680 mile day up into Oregon to pick blueberries that'll go into the chest freezer... so, yes, the wrong car really leaves one not wanting to take driving trips; conversely, something that works for you, can really make putting the top down and seeing the world a lot of fun. [an ironic advantage of the Z and its breadbox size trunk: one has to take only what's necessary, and when one get's home, it's unpacked in 5 minutes - the 4Runner seemed to take hours to unpack and get everything back where it belonged.]

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I don't take amtrak as the vacation. It is a part of it, and a part I enjoy, but my vacations are more about where I'm going.

If I am not going across the country, my yearly vacation is usually in the Poconos.

 

[NE933]

NE993 often seems to think "outside the box"... which I find stimulates my own grey matter!

Ed

Thanks! As well to te other posters who gave insightful answers to the original question as worded and nuanced. Late and dirty trains are uncool, and let's keep in mind that dirty restrooms are mostly the making of swine-like behavior of the "i don't give a damn" crowd. As for having a more age diverse crowd in the sleepers, there are several forces behind this: 1. Seniors have more disposable money than twenty and thirty somethings.

2. There is almost non-existant >:-( advertising or marketing where younger people go to, like park and concert entrances, malls, gyms, and nightclubs. I've seen gyms partipate in promotions for airline based get-aways, and the NYC subways have deals involving cars, cruise ships, buses, and air, but not a single mention of any rail whatsoever. This can nt continue.

3. Not enough sleeping cars is a major constraint.

 

[Silver Star rider]

. . . some of the reasons why LD trains were perceived as "uncool" :

* Lack of wi-fi. This is a huge issue . . .

Huge issue. It needs even more emphasis, tho I do credit Amtrak with moving fairly well on Wi-Fi

* 70's style décor (wall carpeting, etc.) . . .

At a certain point, new cars should be ordered by the hundreds.

We passed that point some while back.

* Mandatory PA announcements at 6 am are not cool.

Not cool.

* General state of cleanliness. . . . nasty bathrooms . . .

Unforgivable.

* Service. Very hit-or-miss. . . . sometimes grumpy, slow, rude, and abrupt. . .

One bad instance can ruin the whole experience, and retold to 25 others.

* Delays. . . .

Here is when the PA system should be used, to give information to the paying passengers.

* A non-intuitive pricing system. Railfare and sleeper accommodations are charged separately, leading to a lot of confusion. Most people don't realize that purchasing a sleeper automatically results in the lowest-bucket railfare, or that they don't run a risk of being assigned a "roommate" if a single person purchases a sleeper, or that sharing a sleeper with a friend results in considerable savings, or that meals are included with the sleeper. There is also a lot of confusion about whether sleepers constitute "first class" or not. . . many corporations and most government entities prohibit "first class" travel without a valid reason.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Darien-I, you should be part of all of Amtrak's customer focus group sessions.

Uh, don't they hold focus group sessions?

Concerning Wifi, I agree and posted a thread on this. Some people think it is a entitlement, but its becoming necessary. I like to use the phrase, the world is getting smaller. Expecting to keep in touch instantly is becoming the norm.

Bruce-SSR

 

[Silver Star rider]

Most of my friends are in late 20s/early 30s.. whenever I have brought up Amtrak as a means of transport, the questions I get are-

1) Is it faster than driving/taking the bus? Me: "Umm.. no. SJC to LAX will take 10 hours". Them: LOL.. not doing it.

2) Is it cheaper? Me: "Umm.. no." Them: LOL.. not doing it.

Some of them had shown interest in Amtrak as a land-cruise vacation after I showed them pictures of my EM and CS rides, but the time, cost and especially the uncertainty have drawn them away. (all working people, can't afford to spend additional overnight in CHI/SEA/PDX because Amtrak again got a gazillion hours late)

I tell people we live in a gorgeous country. Something you cant appreciate from watching the white line or from 30,000 feet.

Bruce-SSR