Observation cars

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Short answer: Cars are heavy things and it costs a lot of money in staffing and hauling costs to pull these things. They are indeed beautiful looking things, but they add little more than the cosmetic, something that doesn't pay the costs of hauling the car. In addition, these cars can only be used as endcaps, meaning more difficult switching and cars that do less than its standard Amfleet counterparts.
 
It wouldn't add any more weight if they added it instead of the cafe cars, and aren't most trains wyed (however its spelled) or do they just move the locos to the other end and leave everything else the same.
 
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Longer answer: Regulations say that cars run by Amtrak must have a way to exit from the car at either end. There is no way to exit that car from the rear. (Note that the cars like that - that you may sometimes see on an Amtrak train - are privately owned!)
 
no way to exit the cars have a door at the end of it just like school buses. look closely at that picture you can see the REAR door.
 
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It wouldn't add any more weight if they added it instead of the cafe cars, and aren't most trains wyed (however its spelled) or do they just move the locos to the other end and leave everything else the same.
But then you have a car that can only be put on the end of trains. Many Amfleet café cars are put in the middle of the consist for easy access from pax-- as for the door on the end, I believe that there is a way for it to be unhooked or made so that it could suffice in emergency operation, however, it would be less user friendly than a standard door and would require some specific instructions about how to open.

I think the caboose is a nice car and that a random hopper car is a bad ending to a long freight, however, its not about looks its about function. With no function, they will not be hauled. The East has a selection of cafés at its use.

As for the observation part of things... AFIIs have very large windows, as do the Viewliners. It is only the short distance AFI trains that do not have windows that big-- but those are limited to the NEC (for the most part) and I can't figure that many people on those trains want an observation car. There are a few exceptions, and sometimes you get to see the Great Dome on the Downeastern!
 
Better yet would be a dome observation car. Same end as that one, just with a dome.

I rode in one a few times as a kid on the Sunset Limited.
 
I just has a random thought, why does Amtrak not have observation lounge cars on some or all of the eastern long distance trains like this one http://www.vistadome.com/postcards/amtrak_rr/panamaltd.jpg? i feel like it would add a lot to theses trains and give them a sleeker look.
Amtrak is a transportation provider, not a luxury vacation operator. I grant you that some people who ride Amtrak do so just for the fun of it, but most of them are going from A to B. These cars have no place in a company trying to provide essential service. If they were to try and build those for use on Amtrak services, men like John McCain would be lividly screaming about the American people paying for a vacation service. Justifiably so if you can't come up with a way to make that car pay for its costs over the rails.

The Dining cars survive because they are required for sleeping car passengers. The Sleeping cars have survived because they pay their costs over the rails. Coach cars and basic food service are essential transportation services, so those survive as well.

If you want to ride a vacation train, may I direct you to VIA Rail's Canadian which, incidentally, does run with a 3 bedroom, 1 drawing room, dome, lounge, buffet observation car built by Budd, named in the "Park" series, very similar to the cars ran on the California Zephyr many years ago.
 
I would bet that most fan tail cars as I think they were once called were geared to First Class Service, and sleepers were nearly always at the rear. Generally these cars were not open to all passengers. A car like that today could be used anyway they wished I guess, and its not likely the sleepers are going to return to the rear anytime soon. My recollections of a fan tail car was the trip I often made in the early 60's on the Gulf Mobile an Ohio St. Louis to chicago which usually ran a fan tail parlor car on the rear. And yes it did have a rear door. I recall once in late spring it was so hot leaving St. Louis that the Porter opened the rear door for air. By the time we got to Chicago there was snow on the ground! Another recollection was of the Walbash Banner Blue or Cannon Ball which also ran a Fan tail Parlor on the rear. When business got poor and to discourage passengers they started picking up a standard Freight Car in Springfield and it became the view from the rear.. Not a fond memory.

With the way in which Amtrak seems to view passenger amenities I doubt it is about to return.
 
Lion,

Your most likely right in todays way of thinking. At one time however I believe that a train was designed as a whole, and the operators realized that when you have a captive set of passengers for a number of days, you needed to provide a total experience that would lure people to use your service. Cost of a series of cars would most likely have been spread across the entire passenger load and not dependent on a specific car making a set amount of money. If so they would never have planned the amenities they did.

Things have changed in some ways today. You can stay at motel 6 or you can stay at a Starwood Resort hotel. If you choose the latter you expect to see surroundings that Motel 6 is not going to have. What is wrong today is that to please people who think a two to three day train trip should not include any more than the most basic service, which ignores the fact that many who are willing to pay a great deal more than coach might expect a higher grade of service and cars than we see today. Many trains used to carry first class only lounges as well as coach lounges, it was a matter of business. Diners catered to people who had paid a fair amount for a ticket and were looking for a fine meal not a microwave entree. I know for many here that theory of attracting passengers by offering amenities seems outdated or unnecessary but cruise ships and better hotels have not forgotten what passengers want. I think with todays level of interest in rail travel, if the passengers were catered too as many expected you would have a greater level of boarding if only the cars were available.
 
I just has a random thought, why does Amtrak not have observation lounge cars on some or all of the eastern long distance trains ....
Generally these cars were not open to all passengers. A car like that today could be used anyway they wished I guess, and its not likely the sleepers are going to return to the rear anytime soon.
The Silvers, which are eastern long distance trains, do indeed have the sleepers (Viewliners) on the rear now.

IMHO, it would be a nice perk for the Silver's sleeper passengers to have their own lounge like that. A lounge were they would not have to try to share it with coach passengers who permanently adopt a seat in the current lounge car.
 
Lion,
Your most likely right in todays way of thinking. At one time however I believe that a train was designed as a whole, and the operators realized that when you have a captive set of passengers for a number of days, you needed to provide a total experience that would lure people to use your service. Cost of a series of cars would most likely have been spread across the entire passenger load and not dependent on a specific car making a set amount of money. If so they would never have planned the amenities they did.

Things have changed in some ways today. You can stay at motel 6 or you can stay at a Starwood Resort hotel. If you choose the latter you expect to see surroundings that Motel 6 is not going to have. What is wrong today is that to please people who think a two to three day train trip should not include any more than the most basic service, which ignores the fact that many who are willing to pay a great deal more than coach might expect a higher grade of service and cars than we see today. Many trains used to carry first class only lounges as well as coach lounges, it was a matter of business. Diners catered to people who had paid a fair amount for a ticket and were looking for a fine meal not a microwave entree. I know for many here that theory of attracting passengers by offering amenities seems outdated or unnecessary but cruise ships and better hotels have not forgotten what passengers want. I think with todays level of interest in rail travel, if the passengers were catered too as many expected you would have a greater level of boarding if only the cars were available.
The whole world has degraded, Larry. Look around you. It ain't just Amtrak. Amtrak's services nowadays are as good in this time and place as the luxury found aboard the 20th Century Limited was in its time. Given a choice between flying business class, or the level of service Amtrak offers you for a sleeper, which would you prefer? Ok, its not great, but its a hell of a lot better than THAT.
 
I just has a random thought, why does Amtrak not have observation lounge cars on some or all of the eastern long distance trains ....
Generally these cars were not open to all passengers. A car like that today could be used anyway they wished I guess, and its not likely the sleepers are going to return to the rear anytime soon.
The Silvers, which are eastern long distance trains, do indeed have the sleepers (Viewliners) on the rear now.

IMHO, it would be a nice perk for the Silver's sleeper passengers to have their own lounge like that. A lounge were they would not have to try to share it with coach passengers who permanently adopt a seat in the current lounge car.
You know, way back when there was a plan to convert heritage sleepers to "Dorm-Lounge" cars that would have been dorms on one end and a first class lounge on the other. It never went through, largely for the reasons I mentioned.
 
There is nothing terribly unusual about these cars in U.S. rail history. They are no more than the lightweight streamlined evolution from the old open platform heavyweight observation cars. I think most people have seen shots of politicans, musicians, etc perfroming from the special rear platform of a train. Those were the original, heavyweight observation cars. But, yes, some of those were business cars or private cars. But some were not.

When streamlining began in the late 30's they changed to this design for observation cars.

In the pre-Amtrak years there were many types of lounge cars(which is what these are).Some at the end of the train, some without the rear taper in the middle of the train,longer busier trains might have a lounge in the middle and in at the rear both. Some trains had, maybe a half coach half lounge in the middle of the train and a half sleeper half observation lounge at the rear. The combinations were endless.

There were observation cas with blunt ends, but with windows. This made it more logical to operate such a lounge in the middle of the train or at the rear either.

And,yes, that rear door could open though I do not know how user friendly it was. If I had a nickel for every time I saw the Royal Palm and the Dixie Flagler back into the stations in Chattanooga with the brakeman standing in the open door of the observation car I would have retired years before now.

And, yes, Amtrak did start out with some observation cars at the beginning. Many obviously became private cars later but Amtrak did handle them in regular service for awhile.

Sometimes there were separate lounges for sleeping car passengers(whether it was an observation or not,)

Keep in mind that there was no national company to set standards before Amtrak, railroads could do and did do anything they wanted to with all kinds of operations of lounge cars,diners, diner-lounges, coach lounges, observation lounges, lounge domes, the combinations were endless. To this day you can go to Tennessee Valley Railroad Musuem and see a coach observation car, blunt ended. It is a heavyweight car modernized to look streamlined for a long gone train called the City of Memphis.I will, in fact, be looking at it tomorrow.

The railroads found the biggest problem with a tapered rear observation car is having to switch it in and out every time cars had to be subtracted or added. Quite a few trains in the pre-Amtrak day started life with a rear observation car but it became too much trouble to switch it in an out.

It would be really hard to try to estimate what percentage of trains in the preAmtrak era had observation cars. Of course fewer would have them as the years went by and they were found to be so much extra trouble with the switching. Maybe 15% of the trains had them. They were almost entirely on streamlined trains which begets the question what percentge of trains were streamlined in the streamlined era and that would be really hard to answer, even with an Officlal Guide in your hands.

I note that these days some people refer to sightseer lounges as observation cars. I would say that is historically incorrect but words tend to change their meaning through the years and that might be what is happening here. There has sometimes been a tendency to refer to domes as observation cars, same thing.Of course what the Canadian (and former CZ) has on the rear is both an observation car and a dome car. One can "observe" more from a dome or a sightseer lounge but the observation car was invented first so it got first honors at a name for itself.
 
amtrak doesn't need to charge that much. just make a train LIKE the canadian. its all single level with nice well maintained cars. amtraks got some heritage fleet cars still around. refurbish them.
 
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I wasn't taking about the prices. Amtrak doesn't want to run at train taking that kind of bath on it while charging enough to give its patrons a bloody nose.
 
Lion,

I don't know where your getting your reference point from? The 20th Century Limited would have run rings around the Amtrak of today hands down, its not even close. I am not 100% on this, but I believe the Century was an all Pullman Train? If not it has a very luxurious first Class Section. I suggest you follow the link I have provided here and read though the types of cars and amenities this train carried. Then if you can compare it to Amtrak, well I don't know how to get though to you with this.

dominator.http://www.american-rails.com/20th-century-limited.html

I guess you will have to goggle it on the American Rails, 20th Century site as evidently this site won't take a direct page link the way I am familiar with.

Larry
 
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amtrak doesn't need to charge that much. just make a train LIKE the canadian. its all single level with nice well maintained cars. amtraks got some heritage fleet cars still around. refurbish them.
They do, and did, to death.

Amtrak needs new proper cars that will make money. IIRC the Heritage fleet cost millions in repair because none of the cars actually had a uniform design and parts-- and they spent a butt load of money bringing them to some sort of "standard" that in the end-- they never could achieve.

New cars, well built, will be cheaper to maintain and easier on operating costs than preserving antiques. While I think that we shouldn't let all of these cars get mothballed, Amtrak, in order to keep public funding, must keep things newer and costs lower.
 
If you compare the 20th Century Limited to today's Amtrak, you're right. But you can't do that. Compare the quality, for example, of a Mercedes built today to one built 20 years ago. There is no comparison.

In the order of quality relative to the rest of the world around it in its time, Amtrak equals the 20th Century Limited.
 
Longer answer: Regulations say that cars run by Amtrak must have a way to exit from the car at either end. There is no way to exit that car from the rear. (Note that the cars like that - that you may sometimes see on an Amtrak train - are privately owned!)
Just off the top of my head nothing would prevent a bi-level design with the old fashioned dome at the end of the upper level.

Also I posted in here today a private car on our recent w/b EB with a promo video link so you can eat your hearts out.
 
I think I should give up perhaps.

If your perspective is Amtrak being the Only thing around to day then maybe. But in its day the 20th Century aimed to offer the finest cars on the rails of any train. Amtrak is not close to that kind of service, today or yesterday.
 
I think I should give up perhaps.
If your perspective is Amtrak being the Only thing around to day then maybe. But in its day the 20th Century aimed to offer the finest cars on the rails of any train. Amtrak is not close to that kind of service, today or yesterday.
It is the finest and most luxurious way available to travel around this country without reaching the realm of insanity on cost (i.e. private rail car or private jet). Just as the Twentieth Century was in its day.
 
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