Ohio Gov Kasich Calls Us A "Train Cult"

[Peregrine]

I was disappointed to see North Carolina is not getting much of this money - but California and Florida are cashing in big time. Maybe a few more governors will turn down the cash and we can get our high speed rail going even more.

"According to an Associated Press report, states gaining the most money include California, $624 million; Florida, $342 million; Washington, $161 million; and Illinois, $42 million. Other states receiving lesser amounts include New York, Maine, Massachusetts, Oregon, North Carolina, Iowa, Vermont and Indiana."

 

[BigRedEO]

Strickland posted an editorial in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (that will hopefully be in all major Ohio newspapers). It unfortunately seems to be too little too late, but it is generating LOTS of comments - including my own! I have the same username there!

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/12/ohios_outgoing_governor_defend.html

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

A great piece, but I doubt it does any good. It's too late-- but will certainly add this to my portfolio.

My letter to the editor has in the hands of the Plain Dealer and Akron Beacon Journal, and I have been able to confirm with an inside sourse that Gov-Elect Kasich was given 27 pages worth of commentary that Alan and I wrote online.

It has been picked up for a follow-up story in the Canton Repository.

 

[Ryan]

Darn, I would have mentioned that I thought Kasich was a jackhole if I knew that he was going to be reading it.

Make sure you post the link when the follow-up story is posted?

 

[Kurn]

Kasich(R-Fox News) released a statement today saying it was "tragic" that the funds would be "wasted elsewhere". In other words,rail projects.He's not gonna change his mind.And it seems that the readers of the Akron Beacon Journal generally agree,having been spoon fed Repub talking points about this.They're spouting the usual-nobody rides trains,waste of taxpayers money,I won't ride trains so you shouldn't either,etc.

He's going to bring Ohio right into the 18th century.

 

[the_traveler]

Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.

It's certainly clear that he thinks "nobody rides trains" (at least in Ohio), so why should Amtrak "waste money" by running empty trains thru Ohio?

 

[monorailfan]

I'll go against the grain here and fully support what Ohio did. I think that in future years Ohio and other states who turn this down will be much better for it.

I count us lucky to have any type of rail system at all.

The major financial institutions and corporations in this country are insolvent - they are only operating due to accounting changes, and that will only work until cash-flow doesn't support that game. The tax base is eroding and interest on the debt is increasing more and more tax revenues. Most people know that major pain is ahead for this county but no one wants to see their special-interests cut.

Cuts to high-speed rail are trivial and insignificant to the cuts that are coming - you can't change the math or the outcome. And when the major cuts do come, such as Social Security, Medicare, Foodstamps, etc., only the folks on this board are going to care about cuts to HSR.

HSR will be the very first thing thrown in the can to send money to other starving programs - Ohio simply figured this out earlier than the other states.

Congrats to Kasich for having a brain and a pair that clank.

 

[AlanB]

Congrats to Kasich for having a brain and a pair that clank.

I'm sorry but you give Mr. Kasich way too much credit; credit that he doesn't deserve.

Mr. Kasich saw that the train had become an issue in Wisconsin and quickly realized that he could use that in Ohio to get himself elected. That was his only plan. Just what he figured he do about the train once elected, I have no idea.

But it is quite clear that he had no idea about anything related to the train. He didn't know that it was a Republican plan. He didn't know that the Republican controlled State Senate had approved that plan. He didn't even realize when he made that statement about a "train cult" that he had just insulted 33 members of the Ohio Senate, most of whom are in the same party as he is.

By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'll go against the grain here and fully support what Ohio did.

Look what the Google dragged in. Nothing says "I don't have a pair" quite like an anonymous guest post.

 

[pebbleworm]

Poo. The cost is a pittance compared to what's being spent on our glorious victories in Iraq and Afghanistan, and at least it's being spent on infrastructure that can actually be used. If you want to bankrupt the nation slash tax revenue and spend a huge amount of money and lives on two meaningless and un-winnable wars. Wait, I think that's happened already...

 

[Kurn]

Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.

It's certainly clear that he thinks "nobody rides trains" (at least in Ohio), so why should Amtrak "waste money" by running empty trains thru Ohio?

Don't give him any ideas.This has come up before in the Ohio legislature during the early Taft administration.

 

[AlanB]

Might as well start rerouting the LSL thru Canada and Detroit. Erie would lose service, but once the CL is rerouted thru Erie and thru Canada, it will have service. And reroute the Cardinal thru Kentucky.

It's certainly clear that he thinks "nobody rides trains" (at least in Ohio), so why should Amtrak "waste money" by running empty trains thru Ohio?

Don't give him any ideas.This has come up before in the Ohio legislature during the early Taft administration.

Since the State of Ohio contributes nothing to the existing service and it is part of the National Network, they have absolutely no say regarding Amtrak's running through Ohio. They can no more stop Amtrak from running through Ohio than they can stop the snow from Lake Erie falling in Cleveland during the winter.

About the only thing that they could do, and that assumes that Ohio actually owns any train stations, would be to revoke Amtrak's lease and close those stations.

 

[monorailfan]

Thanks for your response Alan B. I've been reading (not posting) this board for years - and I fully respect your insight.

"He didn't know that it was a Republican plan. He didn't know that the Republican controlled State Senate had approved that plan." - doesn't matter if it was a Democrat, Republican plan, etc. The money's gone......

"He didn't even realize when he made that statement about a "train cult" that he had just insulted 33 members of the Ohio Senate, most of whom are in the same party as he is" - yes, that was pretty stupid on Kasich part. There are better ways to have this discussion.

"By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that." - I don't disagree. Americans WILL be regretting these cuts. BUT, compared to the list of all of the other bennies that are going to get cut, this ranks maybe #257.

There are many other bennies that Americans rely on every single day and these are all going to be substaintially modified downward. Full blown cuts to programs that are a necessity to Americans. HSR is only a 'necessity' to folks in the Northeast, and that will likely survive. The rest of America does NOT currently rely on HSR and will not miss what they don't have, and will fight to keep what they do have. HSR will get dumped....

This is a great board with great ideas, but nothing good will come out of being unrealistic.

The banks are insolvent, cash flow will eventually hinder the ability of the Fed to paper over this, and then a lot of things are going to change. Not being on the hook for maintenance and support of HSR is a good way to divert those funds to other programs that people RELY on. If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.

So let me go back to the reason for my original post - this thread has it ALL WRONG - instead of discussing how to get something that cannot be kept, instead it should be discussing how to KEEP WHAT ROUTES ALREADY EXIST when the chopping block arrives......

 

[PaulM]

"By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that." - I don't disagree. Americans WILL be regretting these cuts.

Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together.

BUT, compared to the list of all of the other bennies that are going to get cut, this ranks maybe #257.

You're back to 2 + 2 = \/13. If what you say is true, it doesn't make sense to cut something that ranks 267 and under your scenario will become an absolute necessity,.

 

[afigg]

I was disappointed to see North Carolina is not getting much of this money - but California and Florida are cashing in big time. Maybe a few more governors will turn down the cash and we can get our high speed rail going even more.

NC has already done very well in the HSIPR sweepstakes with $545 million in the initial ARRA grants and another $22 million in the FY2010 grants. They have done really well in terms of the current ridership numbers for the Piedmont service with only 1 train, the Carolinian, that covers the entire Piedmont corridor & connects to the NEC. The ridership numbers will of course significantly increase for the Piedmont service once the track improvements are in place and service expands to 4 daily Piedmont trains. But the NC investment won't really pay off until the SE HrSR corridor Raleigh to Richmond VA and Richmond to DC sections are largely in place. Which could be a while.

 

[afigg]

One thought occurred to me while reading the original HSIPR ARRA awards list. Ohio requested $563.7 million for the 3C corridor and was awarded $400 million. The "up to" re-allocations being done by the FRA are the differences between the amounts originally requested by and the awards granted to the selected projects, so none of the money is going to project applications that weren't previously selected (gets the money obligated more quickly). The sad part for Ohio is that if Gov. Strickland had managed to pull out a win in Ohio, but Walker in Wisconsin still returned the WI money, the FRA press release might have said that Ohio was getting up to $163.7 million in additional funding.

 

[PRR 60]

...By the way, every American will be regretting the cuts to HSR when the Fed stops funding the highways and people can't drive anymore. HSR at least had a chance of supporting itself; the highways will never be able to do that.

There are no cuts in the High Speed Rail program as a result of the actions taken by the US DOT with regard to Oho and Wisconsin. The same money will be spent on rail, just in other states. One could argue that redirecting the bulk of the funds to California and Florida actually is better for rail than the Ohio and Wisconsin plans. Ohio and Wisconsin were conventional passenger rail projects using existing trackage owned by freight railroads. While nice, neither project was particularly imaginative and both were firmly routed in 1970's thinking. By contrast, both the California and Florida projects are true high-speed rail: over 150mph on new, dedicated right-of-way. Those projects reflect the future of passenger rail.

I think the HSR program should have been directed to one or two large, true HSR projects as a means of proving the worth of modern, high-speed passenger rail. Projects like those in Ohio and Wisconsin, nice though they may have been, certainly were not a "bold, new vision" of passenger rail transportation. By default, the actions taken by DOT to move the Ohio and Wisconsin funds actually may be a good thing for those who support moving US passenger rail into the 21st century. It will bring both the Florida and California projects just a little closer to reality (in the case of Florida, a lot closer). If one or both of those project succeeds, funding of additional projects elsewhere will be desired, not fought.

Back in the 1950's and 60's, the clamor for building the Interstate Highway system was driven by the success and popularity of highways such as the Pennsylvania and New Jersey Turnpikes. The turnpikes were not just new, two-lane roads. They were a new concept in highway design - four lanes, separated by median, no crossroads, high-speed. They were the "high speed rail" of the day. It was the existence and popularity of the toll roads that moved the states and the federal government to start the Interstate Highway system. Having a true High Speed rail line in this country could do the same thing for high speed rail. To the extent that the actions taken to redirect the funds facilitates the completion of a true, high-speed rail line, I think it is a great thing.

Yes, more rail lines like the Downeaster are great. But, a true high-speed rail line, operating and making money, could be a game-changer. Neither Wisconsin or Ohio projects was going to change the future of passenger rail.

 

[monorailfan]

"Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together"

It's just math. Plain and simple. The money is gone, the good jobs are going offshore, tax base decreasing, interest on debt increasing, etc etc etc. And yes people will regret the cuts to HSR, and they will also regret the cuts coming to everything else much more. HSR simply does not rank that high.

"You're back to 2 + 2 = \/13. If what you say is true, it doesn't make sense to cut something that ranks 267 and under your scenario will become an absolute necessity,."

HSR is only potentially a neccessity on the NEC, and I think (hope) it will survive there. It's not a necessity anywhere else, because it does not exist anywhere else in the USA. That is what makes this so easy to cut.....

I've lived decades w/o HSR, and I survive just fine.

I love passenger rail, but folks need to fight the right fight. And fighting for HSR is not one of them.

Anyway, I think I got my point across that there are lots of Passenger Rail fans in the USA, and not all support HSR. Ohio did the right thing, and the fact of the matter is, the OH election results show it. Let's hope FL gets their head screwed on straight and kills this too.

 

[Big Iron]

"Even if one accepts your theory that we are going down the tubes, it isn't until now that you are putting 2 and 2 together"

It's just math. Plain and simple. The money is gone, the good jobs are going offshore, tax base decreasing, interest on debt increasing, etc etc etc. And yes people will regret the cuts to HSR, and they will also regret the cuts coming to everything else much more. HSR simply does not rank that high.

"You're back to 2 + 2 = \/13. If what you say is true, it doesn't make sense to cut something that ranks 267 and under your scenario will become an absolute necessity,."

HSR is only potentially a neccessity on the NEC, and I think (hope) it will survive there. It's not a necessity anywhere else, because it does not exist anywhere else in the USA. That is what makes this so easy to cut.....

I've lived decades w/o HSR, and I survive just fine.

I love passenger rail, but folks need to fight the right fight. And fighting for HSR is not one of them.

Anyway, I think I got my point across that there are lots of Passenger Rail fans in the USA, and not all support HSR. Ohio did the right thing, and the fact of the matter is, the OH election results show it. Let's hope FL gets their head screwed on straight and kills this too.

I think you paint an overly bleak picture of the US economy and its resiliency. Many noted eceonomists state that job creation will be the primary factor that fully rebounds the economy from this recession.

I work for a well capitalized bank that has returned to profitability and we are lending money every day, not as much as we'd like, we want to lend more. Not many people are asking, especially the small business owners.

The more centrist tone of the Obama Administration will give busines owners more faith that their investments will be rewared (not taxed into oblivion) and they will start hiring, buying more inventory, more machinery/equipment, multiplying the job creation provided by stimulus money.

Granted the 3C corridor is not going to be whiz bang fancy HSR but it will be a service that the citizens of Ohio will use, a service that they need/want, and a base for future growth towards high speed rail. Further, the proposed rail corridors are not for railfans, its for the citizens of Ohio.

 

[the_traveler]

If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.

If brought to a vote between funding highways or Medicare, what would Americans chose?

How about airports or Medicare?

(Do you think airlines pay the full expenses to build and maintain airports and air traffic control?

)

So what happens when those cuts are made, and the roads and airports go to pot?

They go to trains!

Sorry, those funds were cut a long time ago!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Side note: One of the issue in Ohio is/was about maintance of their roads. How the governor elect want to fund more bridge and roads. For the people who don't live in Ohio. Ohio is in an multi-year project to wide their interstate roads to 6 lanes, that three lanes in each side. Well needed, per me and my tractor trailer. The issue is the same as what happen in Massachusett's Big Dig project, Arkansas I-540 interstate. Very big project that suck up all funds for several years, that push allot of maintance to the backburner.

If you ever have the time to drive AR I-540 there are some massive bridges and long tunnels use to make that road, and during and after the time of bulding there was talk of putting Tolls on I-40. The issue was I-40 in AR was falling apart due to lack of maintance, and the state had no funds to do anything about it.

Ohio spending all there money on building more lanes on there interstate. Also in the last few years rebuilding minor state roads into interstate like highways. While the side roads and bridges are falling down.

I think the 3C project would of been great but the people of Ohio its all about there roads and highways. Much like the rest of the country.

My two cents.

 

[Ryan]

This has absolutely nothing to do with highway money.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Ohio got 1.1 Billion to repair roads and highway under ARRA.

 

[rile42]

Side note: One of the issue in Ohio is/was about maintance of their roads. How the governor elect want to fund more bridge and roads. For the people who don't live in Ohio. Ohio is in an multi-year project to wide their interstate roads to 6 lanes, that three lanes in each side. Well needed, per me and my tractor trailer. The issue is the same as what happen in Massachusett's Big Dig project, Arkansas I-540 interstate. Very big project that suck up all funds for several years, that push allot of maintance to the backburner.

If you ever have the time to drive AR I-540 there are some massive bridges and long tunnels use to make that road, and during and after the time of bulding there was talk of putting Tolls on I-40. The issue was I-40 in AR was falling apart due to lack of maintance, and the state had no funds to do anything about it.

Ohio spending all there money on building more lanes on there interstate. Also in the last few years rebuilding minor state roads into interstate like highways. While the side roads and bridges are falling down.

I think the 3C project would of been great but the people of Ohio its all about there roads and highways. Much like the rest of the country.

My two cents.

I live in an area where ODOT is considering spending $16.9 million to make an interchange on a four lane highway (Rt. 16 in Licking County) where there is a perfectly good traffic signal system. I went through that intersection for 30 years to and from my job with no problmes. That money would have run the 3-C for almost ten years. There are many such highway projects being pushed by the road construction lobby (Kokosing Construction) that are needless. I have driven the interstate from Columbus to Cleveland many times over the years and see no reason why it needs to be a six lane highway for the entire length.

One more item....the projected $17 million needed for the 3-C would not totally be needed the first two years, would probably be paid almost entirely by added income taxes from the 8000+ jobs needed and would amount to less than one-half of one percent of the total ODOT budget each year.

 

[George Harris]

If brought to a vote, Americans will choose Medicade over HSR any day of the week.

If brought to a vote between funding highways or Medicare, what would Americans chose?

How about airports or Medicare?

(Do you think airlines pay the full expenses to build and maintain airports and air traffic control?

)

How about that every working person in the non-government employee workforce is paying into medicare, many of as long as it has existed? This little play is a straw man. These alternatives are not in the same pot.

How about rail versus the National Endowment for the Arts, the Department of Education (that is a state function) or other completely non-necessary governmental functions?