Passenger dies after exiting train en route

[ALC Rail Writer]

Even if he was confused and disoriented, it does not seem likely that he would

1. Walk from the upper level down the stairs to the lower level
   
2. Fumble with the latches
   
3. THEN open BOTH the door and window to try and go between cars!
   

I find that hard to believe! :blink:

And if he did "leave" by the side door, don't you think someone (at sometime) might have noticed a door open? :huh: I doubt he closed it behind him!

As I said, I have noticed windows open on trains, if a conductor or pax came across one they just close it without thinking twice.

The only other option is:

[*]Walk from car to car to the end of the consist

[*]Fumble with the two bars

[*]Then open the door manually and (somehow) not notice the eight foot drop or notice that there is NOT a car behind him.

The information doesn't make it clear whether this man had a lower level seat either, which means he would have been right next to the doors anyway. ALSO what if he had to go to the bathroom, he goes to the bathroom and guess what-- he passes both doors.

And by the way, those dogs are not hard to open-- they are designed to be open by a frantic pax in an emergency, its two simple pulls and then the door will open.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

The latest story on this is Here, It doesn't add much information, but is better written.

 

[Guest]

Google Maps shows all the tracks I can find in the area to be single trackage. My theory as to what happened: Passenger is an older gentlemen with medical conditions so he gets a lower level coach. He gets disoriented on lower level during a late night bathroom break, mistaking the exit door as the door to the lower coach seating area. Somehow the idea gets in his head to follow the directions on opening the door, which he does. He then falls out of said moving train and bangs his head. He ends up dying next to the tracks. Local newspaper which has suspect writing skills then says he was on the track when he was actually next to the track.

 

[AlanB]

The two dogs are not hard to open, if they were more difficult to open-- imagine the chaos that would happen in an emergency. They open easily--
What I wonder is how people took that long to notice, aren't there running indicator lights next to the door that glow green or yellow depending upon whether the door is secure? If a conductor looked down the consist, he should be able to see that the door was open.

The lights indicate status of the brakes and not if a door is open/closed. And since the doors open in, it would be hard to see if one comes open "in flight."

Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.

 

[George Harris]

what a bazaar story

How about "bizarre"? Somehow I don't think a shopping area was involved.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Here's an item; a comment from a reader, on this page;

This good and kind man was in Topeka visiting his three sons and family. He was retired from the railroad and was taking the train home to California. He had Epilepsy and on rare occasions would become confused. No one who knew Fred would believe anything "intentional" happened, but it is extremely likely he became disorientated and opened the wrong door. To "no.one.truth"and "Liberty76"; Your grotesques commits has caused pain to the family. So please keep your speculative idiocy to yourself. Thank you.

Apparently a response from a family member, as you can see.

Hmm.. if he was indeed confused and disoriented, it seems less likely that he would be able to undog the rear door-- and rather opened the trackside side door to his car on the lower level.

I am still willing to bet this part of the route is double-tracked.

ok on this rear door here where do you see dogs. you don't just the 2 press here buttons. that bar on the back is not going to prevent someone from falling. they could easily slide under. sense the man appears to suffer from epilepsy he could have pressed those buttons and either fell over the railing or slipped and fell under it.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Here's an item; a comment from a reader, on this page;

This good and kind man was in Topeka visiting his three sons and family. He was retired from the railroad and was taking the train home to California. He had Epilepsy and on rare occasions would become confused. No one who knew Fred would believe anything "intentional" happened, but it is extremely likely he became disorientated and opened the wrong door. To "no.one.truth"and "Liberty76"; Your grotesques commits has caused pain to the family. So please keep your speculative idiocy to yourself. Thank you.

Apparently a response from a family member, as you can see.

Hmm.. if he was indeed confused and disoriented, it seems less likely that he would be able to undog the rear door-- and rather opened the trackside side door to his car on the lower level.

I am still willing to bet this part of the route is double-tracked.

ok on this rear door here where do you see dogs. you don't just the 2 press here buttons. that bar on the back is not going to prevent someone from falling. they could easily slide under. sense the man appears to suffer from epilepsy he could have pressed those buttons and either fell over the railing or slipped and fell under it.

This will be the last time I ever reply to you as you clearly do not read my posts.

You should NOT be able to open that door AT ALL by pushing the buttons. It is sealed and can only be used by a conductor or in emergency operation-- yes it can be opened, but you can't just walk up and open it like every other door.

Those two bars are plenty to keep somebody from falling. One is right above knee level the other is right below chest level ABOVE the human center of gravity. If you walked right into it you wouldn't fall back as most of your weight is still on the train side of the bar.

Having a little experience with epilepsy, epilepsy would not cause you to wander across a train, operate a door in emergency operation and physically shift yourself over the bars to move your center of gravity over the bars. If anything, it would prevent you from accomplishing such a task as it is too complicated.

However, if the man was downstairs going to the bathroom, and decided to have a smoke break, or got confused or panicked for some reason-- he is only two dogs and a pull from two separate doors.

You also could not have slipped under it. If you slip you'd fall backward IN to the car, your feet might be hanging out of the train, but your whole body wouldn't fall back as your momentum is synched with the train. You'd simply fall on your butt. Think about it, if somebody falls on a train, they don't fall and slide back down the car-- they just fall.

High school physics.

 

[jackal]

Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.

I must be dumb, then!! But it was worth it!!

Seriously, I think the minimum clearance requirements on any railroad are enough that a typical passenger car will have a good few feet on either side of it. It may look like the signal masts and bridge supports are right outside the windows, but I'll bet you they're no narrower than any of the same on the Alaska Railroad, and the ARR conductors make no mention of pulling your head in when crossing bridges or passing power poles or anything. I've even stuck my hand out when crossing a bridge, and I barely even felt a whoosh of air.

All right, one more, since the effect is so cool:

 

[Ryan]

Beautiful!!! Thanks for sharing.

 

[GG-1]

Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.

I must be dumb, then!! But it was worth it!!

Seriously, I think the minimum clearance requirements on any railroad are enough that a typical passenger car will have a good few feet on either side of it.

All right, one more, since the effect is so cool:

Mahalo for sharing such beautiful sights. and such clean equipment, And white snow, would be nice to see that train against our blue ocean

 

[TVRM610]

Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.

I must be dumb, then!! But it was worth it!!

Seriously, I think the minimum clearance requirements on any railroad are enough that a typical passenger car will have a good few feet on either side of it. It may look like the signal masts and bridge supports are right outside the windows, but I'll bet you they're no narrower than any of the same on the Alaska Railroad, and the ARR conductors make no mention of pulling your head in when crossing bridges or passing power poles or anything. I've even stuck my hand out when crossing a bridge, and I barely even felt a whoosh of air.

Two Things.....

#1 - It is against Amtrak rules for passengers to open windows or doors, and it is against amtrak rules for passengers to stick any appendages outside of any said windows or doors. PLEASE do not violate rules on any railroad, and PLEASE do not argue with a Conductor on Amtrak that "the guys in Alaska let me do it" or anything like that, respect the rules that are put in place to keep you and all other passengers safe. (I'm not saying you would.. hopefully you would not, but I have heard people use worse excuses before!)

#2 -What you "seriously" think is "seriously" as in deadly wrong. There are many many places all over the United States on Mainline, and Shortline Railroads that hardly have any clearance at all and would not clear a human head looking out the side of a rail car. Perhaps this is not the case on the Alaskan RR so Conductors are lenient, that's fine, I'm not saying that's wrong if that's the case. But to put a blanket statement to people reading about Amtrak travel that there is always a couple feet of clearance on either side of the train can be very dangerous.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That door can't be opened by just pressing it like any other door. It is protected by two bars that are sturdy enough to prevent somebody from simply taking them off. In addition the door itself should be sealed so that the only way to open it is to either get a conductor to do it or use the emergency manual system. A drunk guy can't walk there, press a button, and fall off a train assuming all normal safety operations were in place.

You're not grasping.

Under normal circumstances, assuming proper procedures were followed and the rear door properly locked and secured as it should have been, you are entirely correct.

In the event of NEGLIGENCE and NEGLECT OF DUTIES- which could simply be absentmindedness - of the yard crew who set it up and/or the conductor, the door and bars may not have been properly set up. Does it happen? Once in a great while I'm sure it does. Once in a rare while an idiot passenger mistakenly tries to open the rear door- no matter why. Once in a really great while the two mistakes combine to create a tragedy.

Is it possible the conductor, upon realizing what happened- or what might have happened - then corrected the problem on an inspection? Of course its possible. The conductor might have even been entirely unaware that something happened and may have even been relieved that he noticed the error.

Is it also possible, the conductor realizing his error cost a life, that the conductor never mentioned that in his report? If the other things happened, why can't that be the case too?

Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.

All your doing is building a house of cards. You're going out of your way and out of all logical reason to explain how that would happen. If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

What makes more sense? A man went downstairs, maybe to the bathroom, maybe to get a smoke, wanted fresh air, undogged the door and fell out or...

Somehow the bars were removed from the back door, or totally improperly installed. Somehow this goes unnoticed. Somehow the door is properly secured. Again somehow nobody notices. Nobody notices that the back door to the train is open, and a disoriented man manages to manually open the door and fall out?

That's a lot of somehows... in fact, it would require five things to go wrong, all of which fall on the conductors.

The side-door theory has only two somehows... two things to go wrong. Down in the bottom of a coach or sleeper versus in the upper level where there usually are pax sleeping only ten feet behind you.

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

 

[AlanB]

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

You, and everyone else, are putting way too much stock in the news stories "on the track" comment. To a layman, on the track can mean anyplace on the entire ROW. To us, it means between the two rails. But not to everyone else.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

You, and everyone else, are putting way too much stock in the news stories "on the track" comment. To a layman, on the track can mean anyplace on the entire ROW. To us, it means between the two rails. But not to everyone else.

Thank Alan, you're right.

It only makes the side-door option more plausible. The only reason the rear-door theory started was because people tried to justify "on the track".

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

 

[AlanB]

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

You, and everyone else, are putting way too much stock in the news stories "on the track" comment. To a layman, on the track can mean anyplace on the entire ROW. To us, it means between the two rails. But not to everyone else.

Thank Alan, you're right.

It only makes the side-door option more plausible. The only reason the rear-door theory started was because people tried to justify "on the track".

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

And let's not forget that this is the story that originally had the man falling out of the locomotive.

So their attention to detail leaves a lot to be desired, and I have major doubts about their RR terminology knowledge.

 

[the_traveler]

Great pictures! Almost makes me want to go! (But I can't take Amtrak to there. )

I must be dumb, then!!

At least you admit it! :lol:

 

[AlanB]

#2 -What you "seriously" think is "seriously" as in deadly wrong. There are many many places all over the United States on Mainline, and Shortline Railroads that hardly have any clearance at all and would not clear a human head looking out the side of a rail car. Perhaps this is not the case on the Alaskan RR so Conductors are lenient, that's fine, I'm not saying that's wrong if that's the case. But to put a blanket statement to people reading about Amtrak travel that there is always a couple feet of clearance on either side of the train can be very dangerous.

I for one consider this to be very important advice. While I will admit that most of the stories that I've seen over the years where a conductor was decapitated, or at least badly injured, after sticking their head out a window occured in a subway system, I know for sure that I've seen at least 1 and maybe 2 stories on Amtrak conductors having been killed or injured.

So it does happen!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

My theory isn't crazy, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying its right. I wasn't there watching the doofus cascade out of the train. I'm simply trying to demonstrate it as a possibility.

All I ask of you, ALC, is that you stop saying my suggestion shouldn't be considered, and that it is, in your words, "crazy". Because it isn't.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.

All your doing is building a house of cards. You're going out of your way and out of all logical reason to explain how that would happen. If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

What makes more sense? A man went downstairs, maybe to the bathroom, maybe to get a smoke, wanted fresh air, undogged the door and fell out or...

Somehow the bars were removed from the back door, or totally improperly installed. Somehow this goes unnoticed. Somehow the door is properly secured. Again somehow nobody notices. Nobody notices that the back door to the train is open, and a disoriented man manages to manually open the door and fall out?

That's a lot of somehows... in fact, it would require five things to go wrong, all of which fall on the conductors.

The side-door theory has only two somehows... two things to go wrong. Down in the bottom of a coach or sleeper versus in the upper level where there usually are pax sleeping only ten feet behind you.

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

the rear door on a superliner just like all the other doors that you go through to go from one car to another are automatic when the switch is set to. so you press to open button the door slides open. then it closes behind you. if in sleeper the attendant could have been busy or sleeping and never noticed the man opening the rear door. sense it said he gets confused he could have thought he was wandering into another car and forced the door open thinking it was broken and fell out.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

My theory isn't crazy, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying its right. I wasn't there watching the doofus cascade out of the train. I'm simply trying to demonstrate it as a possibility.

All I ask of you, ALC, is that you stop saying my suggestion shouldn't be considered, and that it is, in your words, "crazy". Because it isn't.

Possibility? Yeah. Probability? No.

Not to mention, it just doesn't make sense. Things that don't make sense are not true. I will not consider a suggestion that cannot be demonstrated as true. As a hypothetical if functions, but we have no proof of concept to go off of, much less any actual past experience to draw that conclusion.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

My theory isn't crazy, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying its right. I wasn't there watching the doofus cascade out of the train. I'm simply trying to demonstrate it as a possibility.

All I ask of you, ALC, is that you stop saying my suggestion shouldn't be considered, and that it is, in your words, "crazy". Because it isn't.

Possibility? Yeah. Probability? No.

Not to mention, it just doesn't make sense. Things that don't make sense are not true. I will not consider a suggestion that cannot be demonstrated as true. As a hypothetical if functions, but we have no proof of concept to go off of, much less any actual past experience to draw that conclusion.

Wow. Just... Wow. "Things that don't make sense are not true"? What? George W. Bush won not one but TWO elections to become one of the most hated presidents ever. Does that make sense? No. Is it true? Yes.

Further, I fail to see how it doesn't make sense. You know what. We have several Amtrak employees on here, not to mention former employees. If one of them cares to come in here and say my suggestion doesn't make sense, I'll concede. Until such time, either find empirical proof that what I suggest doesn't make sense, or stop contriving such tommyrot.

 

[EB_OBS]

Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.

All your doing is building a house of cards. You're going out of your way and out of all logical reason to explain how that would happen. If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

What makes more sense? A man went downstairs, maybe to the bathroom, maybe to get a smoke, wanted fresh air, undogged the door and fell out or...

Somehow the bars were removed from the back door, or totally improperly installed. Somehow this goes unnoticed. Somehow the door is properly secured. Again somehow nobody notices. Nobody notices that the back door to the train is open, and a disoriented man manages to manually open the door and fall out?

That's a lot of somehows... in fact, it would require five things to go wrong, all of which fall on the conductors.

The side-door theory has only two somehows... two things to go wrong. Down in the bottom of a coach or sleeper versus in the upper level where there usually are pax sleeping only ten feet behind you.

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...

the rear door on a superliner just like all the other doors that you go through to go from one car to another are automatic when the switch is set to. so you press to open button the door slides open. then it closes behind you. if in sleeper the attendant could have been busy or sleeping and never noticed the man opening the rear door. sense it said he gets confused he could have thought he was wandering into another car and forced the door open thinking it was broken and fell out.

The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...

My theory isn't crazy, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying its right. I wasn't there watching the doofus cascade out of the train. I'm simply trying to demonstrate it as a possibility.

All I ask of you, ALC, is that you stop saying my suggestion shouldn't be considered, and that it is, in your words, "crazy". Because it isn't.

Possibility? Yeah. Probability? No.

Not to mention, it just doesn't make sense. Things that don't make sense are not true. I will not consider a suggestion that cannot be demonstrated as true. As a hypothetical if functions, but we have no proof of concept to go off of, much less any actual past experience to draw that conclusion.

Wow. Just... Wow. "Things that don't make sense are not true"? What? George W. Bush won not one but TWO elections to become one of the most hated presidents ever. Does that make sense? No. Is it true? Yes.

Further, I fail to see how it doesn't make sense. You know what. We have several Amtrak employees on here, not to mention former employees. If one of them cares to come in here and say my suggestion doesn't make sense, I'll concede. Until such time, either find empirical proof that what I suggest doesn't make sense, or stop contriving such tommyrot.

Here you go:

The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.

 

[RTOlson]

Would they really lock the door? The last End Door of a train consisting of Superliner cars is one of the escape options in an emergency. It, along with the upper windows, are the last resort (after going to the next car in the consist and trying the lower doors and windows). A Flickr user uploaded photos of the Amtrak Superliner Customer Safety Instructions. Here is the relevant detail:

CAUTION: Beware of steep drop through the upper level emergency windows and the last End Door on the train. Use only as a last resort.

So I doubt they actually "lock" the door. To speculate, they may disable the automatic door switches. I've seen a switch that can hold Superliner vestibule doors open, might this be the switch used to disable automatic door-opening? Meaning you would have to push the door open in an emergency.

Anyway, I find both of the leading theories plausible. I would also wait for the results of the investigation before assigning fault. Amtrak discourages the passengers from directly using these doors, but a motivated person could easily open any door or emergency window meant to be accessible during an emergency.

It may be a matter of waiting for the autopsy to help determine the likely chain of events. My crime-TV-addled mind may be putting too much stock in the science, but I believe there may be different blunt force trauma based on slipping out of a upper-level End Door (perhaps legs first) and stepping out of a lower-level door (probably more general trauma as the body decelerated).