Points Surge

[City of Miami]

Here's the biggest points surge I have come across:

Amsnag notified me of a price change on a routing I am interested in CHI/CVS. The price is indeed attractive ($303) but the points cost is not (20,907). This gives a point value of $.0145, almost exactly half the advertised standard. Am I looking at this incorrectly?

The routing I redeemed on the Capitol Ltd and Lynchburger several months ago was less than half that cost in points.

 

[abcnews]

As I recall... a typical $300 fare should = 10,000 points (with the 5% rebate for having the Amtrak credit card). A $600 fare should = 20,000 points. Is your trip date around a holiday? If so, just pay the $303 and save the points for a better points usage later.

 

[Anderson]

This is not-unheard-of, and some spaces are not bookable with points. Honestly, this little "surprise" from January led to my second outburst over AGR 2.0 (since it had initially been advertised as basically a fixed-value system with universal availability...think Virgin America's system). The range is basically from 34.5 points/dollar to 69 points/dollar, though as a rule higher-status members are partially or totally immune from such surges. In my case, I do not think I've ever seen a lockout of space when logged in, due to being Select Executive. This is leading to me engaging in basically whatever antics I have to in order to renew that status for next year...and no, I do not feel more appreciated for it, I feel like I'm simply dodging incoming fire.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

This is not-unheard-of. Honestly, this little "surprise" from January led to my second outburst over AGR 2.0 (since it had initially been advertised as basically a fixed-value system). The range is basically from 34.5 points/dollar to 69 points/dollar, though as a rule higher-status members are partially or totally immune from such surges.

I am AGR Select and I do not understand your statement "as a rule higher status members are partially or totally immune from such surges". I do confess that I use Amsnag to find best prices and was able a couple months ago make a points reservation for April 2017 to travel New Orleans to Washington, DC, to Emeryville, CA in roomettes on Cresent, Capitol Limited, and California Zephyr for 26,000+ points. Under AGR 1.0 I believe that would have cost 30,000 to 50,000 points considering how they would compute traveling from the central zone to east zone and back through central and west zones. If one is pricing the Cardinal that is a more expensive train so you really cannot compare it to the Capitol Limited which is a much better value.

 

[the_traveler]

Is the fare you stated the full (unrestricted) fare or with a discount (like AAA)? :huh:

AGR awards (redemptions) are based on the full fare. No discounts (including the saver fare) are allowed.

 

[City of Miami]

As usual I don't make myself clear. I was commenting solely on the ratio of dollars to points for the same ticket. In this particular case, points are devalued to just about half of their advertised value. That's the most extreme I personally have come across.

Yes, it is during Thanksgiving week and I'm well aware that is premium Amtrak travel time but that is irrelevant here because the $ fare is $303, $28 above the Capitol cost on the same day, but the points cost is more than double. IOW, I redeemed 9500 points for a ticket that was $275 =$.028/point.

Re: Traveler's comment "AGR awards (redemptions) are based on the full fare" - I don't think that is accurate. My impression is that the rail portion is the lowest bucket of the value fare without any discounts, i.e., not the flexible fare which I guess is what he may mean by 'full fare'. What is the correct answer?

I was just reporting what I thought was an unusually high surge in points cost for a given ticket. Anderson says not unusual.

 

[jis]

It is the fare with no discounts like AAA, NARP etc. applied. So whatever was the bucket fare in effect. Also no special discounted nonrefundable fare below lowest bucket.

 

[me_little_me]

Here's the biggest points surge I have come across:

Amsnag notified me of a price change on a routing I am interested in CHI/CVS. The price is indeed attractive ($303) but the points cost is not (20,907). This gives a point value of $.0145, almost exactly half the advertised standard. Am I looking at this incorrectly?

The routing I redeemed on the Capitol Ltd and Lynchburger several months ago was less than half that cost in points.

One of the wonderful "undocumented" features of 2.0. Since those points are apparently now worth half as much on this ride as before, perhaps you can "modify" your reservation to pay in $$ to save your points for future travel.

 

[Ronbo]

I guess that a lot has to with the old price and demand equation!

I was curious about your figures and started to do a little detective investigating: I assumed you were traveling CHI/CVS on the Cardinal around Thanksgiving time, in a roomete.

11/22....$303.00/20,907pts, same as what you found. So I did a different search: 10/18....$354.00/12,213pts. Then I checked 11/22 again just recently and came up with $247.00/8,522pts! Go figure!

Me thinks you might receive another fare alert?

From a points surge to a points purge!

 

[City of Miami]

11/22....$303.00/20,907pts, same as what you found. So I did a different search: 10/18....$354.00/12,213pts. Then I checked 11/22 again just recently and came up with $247.00/8,522pts! Go figure!

That is incredible, isn't it? That's what showing for me right now too. Just a few hours later and less than half the points.

That is the correct date for me. My Capital/Lynchburger redemption for that date is 1000 points more but I assume to change it I would lose 950 points in penalty because they'll just cancel that redemption, which makes it pretty much even steven.

I guess the moral of the story is constant vigilance pays off and the old maxim about buying early is completely dead.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This gives a point value of $.0145, almost exactly half the advertised standard.

&

In this particular case, points are devalued to just about half of their advertised value.

Where is this "advertised" points value to which you keep referring?

 

[Anderson]

@DA: When AGR 2.0 was initially rolled out it was presented as a fixed-value system, and that line has persisted in many folks' minds since then. The fact that it has done so makes the "surprise" all the more damnable in my mind.

There are still glaring issues (the inability of agents to change a reservation rather than cancel-and-rebook with the associated penalty as well as the lack of the long-advertised points-and-cash option) but AGR has basically dropped any pretense on the not-disclosed-until-rollout surge pricing versus having a fixed value system.

 

[jis]

I think some interpreted the statement about rough value of each point as a promise of a fixed value system. I being one who does not wear rose colored glasses and has a "show me" attitude, never assumed that. Si i find this discussion just mildly amusing.

 

[PRR 60]

I think some interpreted the statement about rough value of each point as a promise of a fixed value system. I being one who does not wear rose colored glasses and has a "show me" attitude, never assumed that. Si i find this discussion just mildly amusing.

Since AGR posted a calculator that provided an exact points requirement for each dollar fare entered, and even differentiated between points for required for Acela and points for other than Acela, it sure seemed to me that the points:dollars ratios built into that calculator were something more than just rough estimates. I did not see anything that remotely suggested that the calculated values would not be the points AGR would actually charge once the program rolled out. Nowhere did it state that certain trips would require twice the calculated points.

Unexpected (by most of us) "surge pricing" for some redemptions, and the redemption blackouts when there were not supposed to be redemption blackouts, certainly did not enhance AGR's reputation for integrity. I was surprised, and not particularly amused.

 

[Carolina Special]

The trips that I have booked to date have been in line with what the calculator showed. But the calculator disappeared from the AGR website at launch of the actual program. I have to believe this was meant to make it easier to lower the regular value of points going forward at some point.

Which I expect will happen, unfortunately. The question is how soon this will happen.

 

[jis]

I think some interpreted the statement about rough value of each point as a promise of a fixed value system. I being one who does not wear rose colored glasses and has a "show me" attitude, never assumed that. Si i find this discussion just mildly amusing.

Since AGR posted a calculator that provided an exact points requirement for each dollar fare entered, and even differentiated between points for required for Acela and points for other than Acela, it sure seemed to me that the points:dollars ratios built into that calculator were something more than just rough estimates. I did not see anything that remotely suggested that the calculated values would not be the points AGR would actually charge once the program rolled out. Nowhere did it state that certain trips would require twice the calculated points.

Unexpected (by most of us) "surge pricing" for some redemptions, and the redemption blackouts when there were not supposed to be redemption blackouts, certainly did not enhance AGR's reputation for integrity. I was surprised, and not particularly amused.

I cannot remember exactly where I saw it, but distinctly remember a fine print somewhere on the site that said these were estimates and the exact points requirements would become known only at the time of booking. That is what caused me to treat them as such and quite baffled me and I know several others about the extreme and almost unglued reactions from some. But that is much water under the bridge and over the dam now.

 

[City of Miami]

but distinctly remember a fine print somewhere on the site that said these were estimates and the exact points requirements would become known only at the time of booking.

And with equal certainty I remember NO BLACKOUTS and the promise of points+cash purchase. Neither has happened.

It seems to me that whatever purpose AGR served for Amtrak when it was formed no longer applied and Amtrak altered the program. My guess is that diminishing serviceable equipment over that 15 year period seriously reduced available inventory until it came to the point of either cash or points for a given accommodation and Amtrak chose CASH. No surprise there. I am glad I was able to benefit from AGR as long as I did - with the help of AU, of course! :hi:

 

[Carolina Special]

The AGR web site still says that Points + Cash is coming in 2016. They have until December 31 to deliver on that promise.

Now, whether the terms of using Points + Cash will be reasonable when and if offered is another issue.

 

[jis]

All I can say is the naïveté of the AU crowd regarding the nature of these "frequent user" programs is quite breathtaking. You never believe anything until you actually see what is on real offer, has been my principle about these for a long time. Even if they said they will do something they always explicitly reserved the right to make changes including drastically devaluing the points, at what amounts to a moment's notice. Many cases have been brought by many groups at each change and the courts have almost always sided with the companies offering these programs. Why anyone would expect AGR to be any different completely eludes me.

 

[Ronbo]

but distinctly remember a fine print somewhere on the site that said these were estimates and the exact points requirements would become known only at the time of booking.

And with equal certainty I remember NO BLACKOUTS and the promise of points+cash purchase. Neither has happened.
It seems to me that whatever purpose AGR served for Amtrak when it was formed no longer applied and Amtrak altered the program. My guess is that diminishing serviceable equipment over that 15 year period seriously reduced available inventory until it came to the point of either cash or points for a given accommodation and Amtrak chose CASH. No surprise there. I am glad I was able to benefit from AGR as long as I did - with the help of AU, of course! :hi:

So, after all of the discussions that came about after your original post, did you manage to book a trip at the reduced fare/points that I brought to your attention? Hope you did! Just curious......

 

[the_traveler]

No blackouts DID happen. They just "forgot" to mention that it will cost a premium of points to get an award for traveling on those days.

 

[Carolina Special]

I consider "No Price" to be equivalent to a "Blackout", however they wish to refer to it. Well, unless you are Select Plus or Select Executive, in which case you evidently get a price. Some members are more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell.

But as has been said, they make up the rules and can do what they want.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

I consider "No Price" to be equivalent to a "Blackout", however they wish to refer to it. Well, unless you are Select Plus or Select Executive, in which case you evidently get a price. Some members are more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell.

What evidence do you have that Select Plus or Select Executive get preferential "pricing or points"?

 

[Carolina Special]

See the AGR website under FAQs/Redeeming Points/Why is "No Price" shown when searching redemption travel?

The answer shows the preference given to the higher tiers.

 

[Anderson]

See the AGR website under FAQs/Redeeming Points/Why is "No Price" shown when searching redemption travel?

The answer shows the preference given to the higher tiers.

Also as Select Executive, if I'm not logged in and I see a price that looks "out of whack", as soon as I log in the problem *ahem* takes care of itself.

Edit: For what it is worth, to respond to jis' comments (as the member who may well have come most unglued over the whole affair, though I will note that I had some company), there was a broader pitch that they were shifting to a fixed-value system and that every seat would be available at the "posted" price. With due respect, there were at a bare minimum lies of omission on the part of AGR, and such behavior does not have to be illegal to be contemptible, particularly as this all happened alongside the credit card switch.