Question on Amtrak's actions after a suicide-by-train...

[Braniff747SP]

Hello; (new to the forum, by the way- lurker, first time poster... yesterday's incident prompted me to ask a question.)

Yesterday, (April 7th) I was a passenger on the southbound Coast Starlight, train # 11. Sometime in between Simi Valley and Van Nuys, our train hit and killed someone; apparently, they hit the side of one of the locomotives. It was believed to be a suicide. When we arrived in Van Nuys, we were told after most of the unloading was over that the authorities had been called and that we were waiting on them. The news later trickled out from the crew and we were told that we would have to wait at least 3 hours. (This, for me, was in the 35th hour of the 35 hour train- I'd boarded at the start of the line.) The crew also said that no buses would be provided. I assumed that we were to wait for the coroner, police investigation, etc., before we could go anywhere. Half an hour later, they said that the Surfliner behind us would couple up to the back of the train (which already had two FRA Office of Safety Coaches) and that they would push us to Union Station. I then assumed that they would leave the locomotives in Van Nuys for the coroners and authorities and somehow back us out and push us to Union Station. What ended up happening was that they pushed us out with both the leading locomotives still on our train. What I don't understand is why this would be done- the locomotives seemed fine; they had run us all the way from Simi Valley to Van Nuys. I'd understand if they needed to stay at Van Nuys, but if not, why would the Surfliner need to push us all the way to the station? Is there some sort of Amtrak policy involving this type of incident saying that the locomotives can't be run after something like this happens?

On a related note, we must have been a really long train- 11 had 14 Superliners (and a baggage car) plus the two FRA coaches. How long is a normal Surfliner? Assuming it has somewhere around 10 coaches, we must have had twenty-something cars on the train.. Pity that it was dark; a picture would have been nice. (And to tell the truth, after 37 hours on a train, I was very tired.)

Regardless, I'd appreciate any information about Amtrak's procedures in a situation like this.

 

[Blackwolf]

Interesting circumstance, to say the least!

In short, without knowing anything official, I would make a guess that the Surfliner was attached to the back of your Coast Starlight just out of convenience. Instead of having two trains that are one right after the other, where rules about signal blocks and distances for safety reasons come into play as well as the dispatching troubles that come with juggling other trains around those two, it is simply easier to make two trains into one. Your Coast Starlight was running late because of the incident, and was essentially 'holding up the line' because of it, the Surfliner essentially became 'trapped' behind you.

I very highly doubt the single Surfliner engine, stuck in the middle of a new consist, would both push and pull that much train while also generating Head-End Power. It could do it, sure, but that is a whole lot of wear and tear for a single locomotive that is not necessary in the least bit.

What probably occurred was the two leading locomotives on your Coast Starlight remained as the motive power, pulling both of the combined trains. The Surfliner locomotive was probably put into 'tow' mode, and left running to provide HEP for the cars on the Surfliner consist. Since Amtrak cars (AFAIK) have MU cabling, the lead locomotive can still control the Surfliner locomotive even if it is in the middle of the train.

Hopefully, aside from the troubles mentioned here, that your trip was an overall enjoyable one!

 

[OBS]

I think Blackwolf is on the right track, pun intended. However the trains were probably combined due to fact that after train incidents, such as described above, the crew is allowed to take themselves "out of service" due to the trauma of the incident. Thus rather than wait for a new crew to be called and dispatched to the location, the trains were combined and the operating crew from second train can operate it as one train from the location. Also if the second train were actually pushing first train, it would be limited to 15 or 20 mph due to operating rule restrictions imposed for everyone's safety. Hope this helps...

 

[Braniff747SP]

I very highly doubt the single Surfliner engine, stuck in the middle of a new consist, would both push and pull that much train while also generating Head-End Power. It could do it, sure, but that is a whole lot of wear and tear for a single locomotive that is not necessary in the least bit.

Yes, I thought that too- Our Coast Starlight runs with two locomotives for half the train; I thought it odd that a single Surfliner locomotive would be made to operate both trainsets.

I think Blackwolf is on the right track, pun intended. However the trains were probably combined due to fact that after train incidents, such as described above, the crew is allowed to take themselves "out of service" due to the trauma of the incident. Thus rather than wait for a new crew to be called and dispatched to the location, the trains were combined and the operating crew from second train can operate it as one train from the location. Also if the second train were actually pushing first train, it would be limited to 15 or 20 mph due to operating rule restrictions imposed for everyone's safety. Hope this helps...

This might be the answer- this makes sense. This may be why they said there would be a three hour wait; wait for a new front-end crew. And there is no question that the train was at a reduced speed- it certainly was, noticeably so.

What I found interesting, though, that the breaking was very rough; you could feel all that train behind you pushing on the Starlight.

Thanks for both your answers...

 

[Trogdor]

In short, without knowing anything official, I would make a guess that the Surfliner was attached to the back of your Coast Starlight just out of convenience. Instead of having two trains that are one right after the other, where rules about signal blocks and distances for safety reasons come into play as well as the dispatching troubles that come with juggling other trains around those two, it is simply easier to make two trains into one. Your Coast Starlight was running late because of the incident, and was essentially 'holding up the line' because of it, the Surfliner essentially became 'trapped' behind you.

Unless the two trains were going to be following each other for a very long distance, this is rarely the reason two trains are coupled together.

Without looking up the incident in question, I'd wager that OBS is correct that there wasn't a relief crew available.

Coupling up two trains takes a while in and of itself (HEP must drop, open couplers, couple the trains, reconnect all the air hoses and HEP cables, then do an air test an a super-long train). There's always the possibility that something might not work right when things couple up, and now the super-long train has to make multiple spots at each station which would take just as much, if not more, time compared to running two trains one behind the other.

Trains following each other is a routine thing that happens thousands of times throughout the country each day, and isn't something that generally causes undue hardship for a dispatcher. Besides, the distance from Van Nuys to Los Angeles is very short, and it's really only a 20-30 minute ride, total. If it weren't for the need for a new crew, the Starlight would have probably been at the last interlocking before Union Station before the coupling was completed and the combined train was ready to depart, and the following Surfliner would have been, at most, 3-4 minutes behind it.

 

[Agent]

I very highly doubt the single Surfliner engine, stuck in the middle of a new consist, would both push and pull that much train while also generating Head-End Power. It could do it, sure, but that is a whole lot of wear and tear for a single locomotive that is not necessary in the least bit.

Well, based on

, it was two Surfliner engines on the back of the train. Still, I also doubt they would be pushing while the front engines were pulling (are any Amtrak enigines capable of distributed power?).

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I don't see why amtrak couldn't use distributed power. not that hard to due for there short trains no need for radio control just use cables and control them the same way they do for push pull configs.

 

[Braniff747SP]

Well, based on

So it did. How did you find the video?

 

[Trogdor]

A couple points come to mind. First, I don't know if all Superliners are MU-capable (possibly they are; a few years ago many of them weren't but some have been converted). Second, I also don't know if those two PVs on the rear are MU-capable. If there's any non-MU car in that consist, then the rear engines couldn't be controlled by the front.

 

[RampWidget]

A couple points come to mind. First, I don't know if all Superliners are MU-capable (possibly they are; a few years ago many of them weren't but some have been converted). Second, I also don't know if those two PVs on the rear are MU-capable. If there's any non-MU car in that consist, then the rear engines couldn't be controlled by the front.

None of the regularly-traveling FRA cars are trainlined for push-pull operation AFAIK. Can't speak about Supers as I have no experience with them.

Push-pull and DP (distributed power) aren't quite the same thing. DP does not require any physical connection (trainline or otherwise) on the DP units. At least one DP-equipped unit is required on the lead of the 1st (controlling) consist, and at least one DP-equipped unit is required on the second (distributed) consist, whether it is cut in mid-train or coupled to the rear.

I have never seen or heard of an Amtk unit equipped for DP operation.

 

[Agent]

Well, based on

I happen to be subscribed to the uploader of the video.

 

[Braniff747SP]

I happen to be subscribed to the uploader of the video.

Well, thanks to your subscription, I got a couple of videos of my train yesterday. It's amazing how many people take videos of the passing train...

 

[James.]

Hello; (new to the forum, by the way- lurker, first time poster... yesterday's incident prompted me to ask a question.)

Yesterday, (April 7th) I was a passenger on the southbound Coast Starlight, train # 11. Sometime in between Simi Valley and Van Nuys, our train hit and killed someone; apparently, they hit the side of one of the locomotives. It was believed to be a suicide. When we arrived in Van Nuys, we were told after most of the unloading was over that the authorities had been called and that we were waiting on them. The news later trickled out from the crew and we were told that we would have to wait at least 3 hours. (This, for me, was in the 35th hour of the 35 hour train- I'd boarded at the start of the line.) The crew also said that no buses would be provided. I assumed that we were to wait for the coroner, police investigation, etc., before we could go anywhere. Half an hour later, they said that the Surfliner behind us would couple up to the back of the train (which already had two FRA Office of Safety Coaches) and that they would push us to Union Station. I then assumed that they would leave the locomotives in Van Nuys for the coroners and authorities and somehow back us out and push us to Union Station. What ended up happening was that they pushed us out with both the leading locomotives still on our train. What I don't understand is why this would be done- the locomotives seemed fine; they had run us all the way from Simi Valley to Van Nuys. I'd understand if they needed to stay at Van Nuys, but if not, why would the Surfliner need to push us all the way to the station? Is there some sort of Amtrak policy involving this type of incident saying that the locomotives can't be run after something like this happens?

On a related note, we must have been a really long train- 11 had 14 Superliners (and a baggage car) plus the two FRA coaches. How long is a normal Surfliner? Assuming it has somewhere around 10 coaches, we must have had twenty-something cars on the train.. Pity that it was dark; a picture would have been nice. (And to tell the truth, after 37 hours on a train, I was very tired.)

Regardless, I'd appreciate any information about Amtrak's procedures in a situation like this.

Not Sure about some of the Stuff. But, I Do know that Amtrak 11 had 4 Locos & 20 Cars & I Did see it.

 

[Braniff747SP]

Not Sure about some of the Stuff. But, I Do know that Amtrak 11 had 4 Locos & 20 Cars & I Did see it.

Where you the bloke that took the video or is the one hosting it on YouTube? I'm 68mnap on YouTube- I've been talking, over comments, with the owner of the video....

Glad that someone caught video of the train to make up for my lack of video.

 

[Phil S]

One for the record books? Great video under difficult circumstances.

 

[RampWidget]

Not Sure about some of the Stuff. But, I Do know that Amtrak 11 had 4 Locos & 20 Cars & I Did see it.

Cool video. It is unusual, but not unheard of, to do this. I've seen 91 & 97 coupled together nose to tail between WPB and MIA when unusual circumstances caused 97's crew to reach their Federal hours-of-service limits short of MIA. The second train's locomotives were isolated and only supplying HEP, AFAIK. Only the main reservoir air was coupled between the 1st and 2nd train. A brake test was made on the combined trains, then both consists were pulled together into MIA by the lead set of P42's.

 

[Braniff747SP]

One for the record books? Great video under difficult circumstances.

The engineer, I think, earned his paycheck that night... He had to calculate and stop the train twice, for each train; must have been difficult to do.

 

[James.]

Not Sure about some of the Stuff. But, I Do know that Amtrak 11 had 4 Locos & 20 Cars & I Did see it.

I'm "MrUp8444" The Owner...

 

[Ispolkom]

One for the record books? Great video under difficult circumstances.

Not hardly. January 1, 2011, I saw two Empire Builders back to back, dragging east to Chicago. The start to a very tough year on the Hi Line.

 

[Braniff747SP]

One for the record books? Great video under difficult circumstances.

Not hardly. January 1, 2011, I saw two Empire Builders back to back, dragging east to Chicago. The start to a very tough year on the Hi Line.

I'm not familiar with the Empire Builder- as such, I don't know it's schedule. Is it a once-daily train? If so, two of them running together must have been a bad delay for someone...

 

[Ispolkom]

One for the record books? Great video under difficult circumstances.

Not hardly. January 1, 2011, I saw two Empire Builders back to back, dragging east to Chicago. The start to a very tough year on the Hi Line.

I'm not familiar with the Empire Builder- as such, I don't know it's schedule. Is it a once-daily train? If so, two of them running together must have been a bad delay for someone...

Quite the delay. The westbound #7 got stuck somewhere between Fargo and Grand Forks because of winter weather. I can't remember the exact details. The eastbound (and quite late #8) got around it, hooked on to it, and pulled it back (and backwards) to Chicago. Westbound passengers were left off at the stations they boarded. Service didn't restart for several days. I saw the combined train in St. Paul on a bright New Years Day morning, and Rtabern

it much later on what, for Illinois, was a chilly night.
Since BNSF requires three locomotives on the Empire Builder in winter, you can count 6 P42s on that long, long train.

I don't know if you could walk the whole length of the train. The only person I know who was on it is an elderly friend of my mother, and she kept to her seat on the annulled #7.

 

[Braniff747SP]

That's one hell of a long train... interesting story.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The Surfliner does not run with ten coaches. Anybody know why the CS is running with 14 Superliners? Did Amtrak whip out some extra cars or what?

 

[Braniff747SP]

The Surfliner does not run with ten coaches. Anybody know why the CS is running with 14 Superliners? Did Amtrak whip out some extra cars or what?

On the Northbound Starlight two days before it, too, had 14 coaches... I assumed this was normal. What is the normal trainset count?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The Surfliner does not run with ten coaches. Anybody know why the CS is running with 14 Superliners? Did Amtrak whip out some extra cars or what?

On the Northbound Starlight two days before it, too, had 14 coaches... I assumed this was normal. What is the normal trainset count?

Last I checked, the CS had only 12 cars, 10 Superliners, a PPC, and a baggage car. But I am probably wrong now since you saw multiple CS trains with 15 cars (add one baggage car).