B
Ben
Guest
How difficult/expensive would it be to reconfigure Horizon coaches with larger windows? It would be nice to have this happen once they are replaced with bilevel coaches in the Midwest so that they can be used elsewhere.
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I think that would be very expensive. You have to cut into the sides of the cars. With amtrak's cash flow thus would never happen.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
They can still be used elsewhere with current windows. It would be very hard and expensive to cut the railcars and put in bigger window, maybe even structurally impossible. Waste of time and money, just like the "New Lynchburgh Station" idea! :angry2: :angry2:
They've been used in other services on a regular basis before; 8 of the cars were reconfigured as long-distance coaches for the Three Rivers about ten years back. Even then, standard Horizons would get sent out frequently on the Pennsylvanian (and, to a lesser degree, on the Three Rivers).
jis
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When I see a Horizon car the first thing I think is "commuter train." While the ride isn't any worse than an Amfleet to me, putting a Horizon in long-distance service just seems cruel. Even the eastern LDTs use Amfleet II cars with taller windows—you do notice the difference.
The way they're used today in corridor service is fair enough. I'm sure that some commuter rail agency would be willing to pick them up as-is.
The way they're used today in corridor service is fair enough. I'm sure that some commuter rail agency would be willing to pick them up as-is.
TCRT
Lead Service Attendant
They do show up on the NYP section of the Lake Shore Limited at least occasionally (when I rode last August, for example, some unlucky CHI-NYP passengers got seated in a Horizon coach). This was as a fifth coach in addition to the standard four NYP-bound Amfleet IIs.
With standard long distance low-density seating, while having slightly shorter windows than an Amfleet II, I don't think they'd be half bad for a long trip.
jis
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Yes, the fifth coach has been seen to be Amfleet I on occasions too. It is intended to serve short turn passengers on heavy rush trains, so no harm done.
I agree. Would you rather have a car available for service now with slightly inferior windows, but collecting revenue and providing service today, or would you rather not have the car in service, losing all that potential revenue, waiting for the right sized window nirvana?
There are two annoying features of the Horizon coach. One, the windows have no curtains (though I suppose such a retrofit wouldn't be too difficult to develop). Two, the interior lighting sucks (it's right in the ceiling, shining straight down on you, as opposed to Amfleets, which have lights in the walls and softer lighting that reflects off the ceiling; the atmosphere just feels more pleasant in an Amfleet).
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Remember, a few Horizons were converted for 60-seat LD service, then converted back. Anybody ridden them? How were they compared to Amfleet IIs?
The legroom was comparable, but all of the annoyances of the Horizon car (crappy lighting, I think they still lacked window curtains) were still there.
For those wondering, they were numbered in the 51000-series (51000-51003, and 51500-51503).
So, since this is a thread about the logistics of turning current commuter cars into a reasonable long-distance car, just what are the insurmountable issues?
In the course of an overhaul, the easiest thing to deal with are the seats. No matter the car configuration, all of Amtrak's non-sleeper and non-food service cars are exactly the same minus the seats: overhead bins are identical and there are dual rails on either side of the isle and rails on the outside wall in which to mount the seat (units?) to in a very airliner-style manner. Just unbolt the current seats, remove the rubber spacers between each seat that are there currently, and re-instal the seat of choice followed by replacement rubber spacers covering the track.
The overhead at-seat lighting panels are adjustable (again, just like an airliner) to match a movement of seat locations. The next thing to deal with (again, very easy) is to relocate the outlets for at-seat power. This just about solves the largest, and easier conversion topics that need attention. Beyond this, it would appear as if the two most annoying issues are the overhead lighting and the lack of curtains. In my non-expert opinion, adding curtains is a non-issue, a 'sneeze' of a thing that is perhaps the easiest of all the changes to complete. This leaves the last and most formidable topic: the overhead lighting. Without having set foot into a Horizon for over 15 years, not since they were being used on the first Capital Corridor trains in the 1990's, I have no recollection of what the light configuration is. Just how hard would it be to change the lighting out for something more subdued? Just look at what they did for the Indianapolis Viewliner Diner. Could they not place LED light strips (very useful and reliable these days as the technology has progressed) on the backside of the overhead bins for indirect light, then maybe the same beneath the bins against the wall to mimic the current florescent lights in Amfleet and Superliner coach? And lastly place the same fixtures overhead found in Superliner's with the combo white/blue ceiling fixture?
This is, of course, not a full overhaul. The carpets and overall interior should be stripped and scrapped in a complete scenario, then replaced with new items which would make all of the above perfectly easy. And the exterior brushed aluminum would be refreshed and nicely shined to the silver it used to be. I actually like the idea of LD trains with combination Viewliner and rebuilt Horizon consists. The rail-fan in me sees a much nicer aesthetic in the traditional flat-walled cars when matched with Viewliners than what can be currently found with the (IMHO awkward) round AmCan.
Just my $0.02. Its all for entertainment value at this point, and I think the Horizons will likely just return East to augment NEC expanded capacity needs when released from the midwest.
In the course of an overhaul, the easiest thing to deal with are the seats. No matter the car configuration, all of Amtrak's non-sleeper and non-food service cars are exactly the same minus the seats: overhead bins are identical and there are dual rails on either side of the isle and rails on the outside wall in which to mount the seat (units?) to in a very airliner-style manner. Just unbolt the current seats, remove the rubber spacers between each seat that are there currently, and re-instal the seat of choice followed by replacement rubber spacers covering the track.
The overhead at-seat lighting panels are adjustable (again, just like an airliner) to match a movement of seat locations. The next thing to deal with (again, very easy) is to relocate the outlets for at-seat power. This just about solves the largest, and easier conversion topics that need attention. Beyond this, it would appear as if the two most annoying issues are the overhead lighting and the lack of curtains. In my non-expert opinion, adding curtains is a non-issue, a 'sneeze' of a thing that is perhaps the easiest of all the changes to complete. This leaves the last and most formidable topic: the overhead lighting. Without having set foot into a Horizon for over 15 years, not since they were being used on the first Capital Corridor trains in the 1990's, I have no recollection of what the light configuration is. Just how hard would it be to change the lighting out for something more subdued? Just look at what they did for the Indianapolis Viewliner Diner. Could they not place LED light strips (very useful and reliable these days as the technology has progressed) on the backside of the overhead bins for indirect light, then maybe the same beneath the bins against the wall to mimic the current florescent lights in Amfleet and Superliner coach? And lastly place the same fixtures overhead found in Superliner's with the combo white/blue ceiling fixture?
This is, of course, not a full overhaul. The carpets and overall interior should be stripped and scrapped in a complete scenario, then replaced with new items which would make all of the above perfectly easy. And the exterior brushed aluminum would be refreshed and nicely shined to the silver it used to be. I actually like the idea of LD trains with combination Viewliner and rebuilt Horizon consists. The rail-fan in me sees a much nicer aesthetic in the traditional flat-walled cars when matched with Viewliners than what can be currently found with the (IMHO awkward) round AmCan.
Just my $0.02. Its all for entertainment value at this point, and I think the Horizons will likely just return East to augment NEC expanded capacity needs when released from the midwest.
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Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
How about converting the retangular-cross scetion Horizons into sleeping Cars. The small windows aren't so bad for sleepers, you just need to add curtain, dividing bulkheads, and sleeping berthes. Expensive and hard to convert, but cheaper than ordering Viewliners and they should be a good short-term solution.
TCRT
Lead Service Attendant
Blackwolf's analysis is quite complete, but I think we're missing a major issue precluding widespread adaptation of the Horizons on NEC routes, and that's the lack of power side doors. This might mean, for example, that the Horizons would be well suited for, say, the New Haven-Springfield Shuttle route or the Downeaster, with their short train lengths and short platforms, but if a Northeast Regional made of mostly Horizons ever pulled into a fully high platform station like PVD, one could expect a significant delay compared to the normal power-door equipped Amfleet consist. Of course, adding only one or two to a consist with explicit announcements that the doors on those cars would not open automatically might be an acceptable way to gain more capacity quickly. Clearly it worked at least ok for the Three Rivers, which spent at least some time in high-platform environments. If the lack of power doors means that the Horizons have to spend most of their time off the NEC, then it automatically points them towards routes like the Adirondack, Empire Service, or Maple Leaf, or the aforementioned long-distance services.
Given the amount of time it took Amtrak to re-fit the 8400 diner, I wonder how efficient this would be in terms of both time and money, though given that I work on lasers and not railcars, I have absolutely no idea. On the other hand, this was done to a pair of Amfleet Is in the late 1970's (IIRC for a legal technicality rather than financial or customer service reasons, and it also gave Amtrak an excuse to try out the prototype Superliner roomette layout).
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Amtrak has 25 baggage-dorms and 25 Viewliner sleepers on order and due to be delivered in the next 2-3 years. If they need more sleeper cars, they can exercise part of the option with CAF and buy additional new Viewliner sleepers. With the modifications planned for the 50 Viewliner I sleepers, that will give them a unified single level sleeper fleet with the same parts, same maintenance manuals, identical configurations.
Converting a batch of 20+ year old Horizons to sleeper cars is likely not cost effective at all as it would result in a unique set of equipment with higher maintenance costs. Besides, the Horizons are needed for the Midwest routes as coach cars. The order for the bi-level corridor coach cars won't be placed until later this year. It will be 2016 or later before many Horizons will be freed up from the Midwest corridor routes. By then, Amtrak will have completed the current 130 car CAF order and could be getting a steady stream of Viewliner II cars from follow-on orders for CAF.
Also, keep in mind that the Horizons don't perform so well in winter weather. If they are going to be used after the new Midwest bilevels are in service, it would be preferable to use them somewhere other than the Midwest or Northeast.
johnny.menhennet
Conductor
Like to supplement the Silver Star along the FEC, or something along those lines. This would be a cheap way to move the cars to a better climate to a railroad and state that are willing to host them. I agree that the NE, like the Springfield Shuttle, would not be ideal.
That was sort of my thought as well. Looking around the country as places that have significant and/or expanding intercity passenger service many are either cold weather (Northeast), have new/refurbished equipment planned (Northwest, California, Southeast/North Carolina), or both (Midwest). If Florida gets moving on some sort of corridor service, that would seem to be the best location for the Horizon fleet to end up.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
How bad are the Horizons in actual winter weather? Do they have minor problems, cause delays, or have to be hauled into the yard for repairs and servicing?
Enough of a problem that it is discussed in the V2 Fleet Strategy Plan for the Horizons with the preference to use them in warmer climates.
PerRock
Engineer
One could do what they do in England with the the MK3 cars. These are all manual doors on long trains. Over there they allow the passengers to open the doors themselves at the station, and then an employee walks down the length of the train closing all the door (from the outside). Once all the doors are closed he signals the engineer to depart.
peter
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
A.big problem is the exposed steps that freeze and are thus hazardous
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