Saving Border Crossing Time

[Murjax]

I was reading in Trains magazine about a month ago about the Maple Leaf and Adirondack's insanely long waits going through border customs and how they haven't been able to come up with a solution for it. Well I was thinking, instead of stopping at the border and have customs keep the train there while they inspect everybody, why can't customs join the train an hour or so before reaching the border? That would give them time to run through the train so when they reach the border, they can cross it almost immedietly. The only obstacle they'd have to deal with is confirming that the only people left on the train after the last stop in whichever country they're leaving are people crossing the border. Anyone think this could work?

 

[Guest_jimhudson78666_*]

I was reading in Trains magazine about a month ago about the Maple Leaf and Adirondack's insanely long waits going through border customs and how they haven't been able to come up with a solution for it. Well I was thinking, instead of stopping at the border and have customs keep the train there while they inspect everybody, why can't customs join the train an hour or so before reaching the border? That would give them time to run through the train so when they reach the border, they can cross it almost immedietly. The only obstacle they'd have to deal with is confirming that the only people left on the train after the last stop in whichever country they're leaving are people crossing the border. Anyone think this could work?

In Canadian Airports Custims and Immigration is done in the airport before you get on the plane/theres noreason hillarys guys cant negoiate this for trains too!The canadian guys could work out of NYP, the US guys in Toronto/

Niagara Falls,(also Vancouver in the west which is a real mess)>I know Homeland Security is the worst beauracy in

the world, theres no reason this cant be done easily,safely and sanely!!!!It is very time consuming ,Ive waited long as 2 hours on crossing to Montreal and Toronto, this is crazy,its not JFK or the Middle East!!The other alternative is to have them ride the train from NYP and Toronto/Montreal and then get off @ the border after checking everyone to clear them for entry!

 

[jis]

I was reading in Trains magazine about a month ago about the Maple Leaf and Adirondack's insanely long waits going through border customs and how they haven't been able to come up with a solution for it. Well I was thinking, instead of stopping at the border and have customs keep the train there while they inspect everybody, why can't customs join the train an hour or so before reaching the border? That would give them time to run through the train so when they reach the border, they can cross it almost immedietly. The only obstacle they'd have to deal with is confirming that the only people left on the train after the last stop in whichever country they're leaving are people crossing the border. Anyone think this could work?

Handling US and Canadian citizens will be easy. Problem will be with citizens of third countries because these days they need to be finger printed and photographed. In addition it would also be difficult to carry out secondary inspections on board. The best is to do the inspection at a terminal but do it quickly instead of taking forever.

 

[greatcats]

Around 1992 I was on the Montrealer out of Montreal one cold winter night. U.S. Customs agents boarded the train in Quebec and checked out the passengers enroute to, if I recall correctly, St. Albans. I don't know why this is not the case anymore -- probably expenses realted to Customs.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

In Canadian Airports Custims and Immigration is done in the airport before you get on the plane/...

Is it done by Canadian Customs officers, or by US Customs officers, at these Canadian airports? I am not sure that US Customs Officers are allowed on "foreign" soil.

I haven't travelled to Canada lately, but when I go to Europe, I always have to go thru customs at the destination.

Plus, few passengers get off a plane while it is in flight, but I guess a passenger (desperate) could jump off a train.

As of June 1, 2009, things tightened up quite a bit between Canada and the US. One actually now needs a Passport (or one of those new Passport cards).

 

[MrFSS]

In Canadian Airports Customs and Immigration is done in the airport before you get on the plane/...

Is it done by Canadian Customs officers, or by US Customs officers, at these Canadian airports? I am not sure that US Customs Officers are allowed on "foreign" soil.

I haven't traveled to Canada lately, but when I go to Europe, I always have to go thru customs at the destination.

Plus, few passengers get off a plane while it is in flight, but I guess a passenger (desperate) could jump off a train.

As of June 1, 2009, things tightened up quite a bit between Canada and the US. One actually now needs a Passport (or one of those new Passport cards).

I have flown from most of the major Canadian airports back to the US. US customs and immigration are at those Canadian airports and you clear there. They then "lock" you in a secure area and even though you may be in Toronto or Montreal, you are actually on US soil. When you land in the US, no customs, etc, to clear. It works very well.

 

[PRR 60]

In Canadian Airports Custims and Immigration is done in the airport before you get on the plane/...

Is it done by Canadian Customs officers, or by US Customs officers, at these Canadian airports? I am not sure that US Customs Officers are allowed on "foreign" soil.

I haven't travelled to Canada lately, but when I go to Europe, I always have to go thru customs at the destination.

Plus, few passengers get off a plane while it is in flight, but I guess a passenger (desperate) could jump off a train.

As of June 1, 2009, things tightened up quite a bit between Canada and the US. One actually now needs a Passport (or one of those new Passport cards).

The US preclearance at selected Canadian airports is authorized by laws in both countries. The preclearance personnel are US Customs and Border Protection officers. Once you pass through the FIS process in the Canadian airport, you are effectively admitted to the US and your subsequent flight is handled at the US destination airport as a domestic arrival. Preclearance permits flights to US destinations that do not have an FIS station,so from a tourism standpoint, this was something Canada wanted. The law also permits Canada to set-up preclearance in the USA, but to date they have not elected to do that.

US Customs and Border Protection preclearance in Canada is the basis for one of the more interesting travel trivia questions.

- Qestion: After New York JFK, what is the second busiest USA international point of entry airport?

- Answer: Toronto Pearson

 

[AlanB]

In Canadian Airports Custims and Immigration is done in the airport before you get on the plane/...

Is it done by Canadian Customs officers, or by US Customs officers, at these Canadian airports? I am not sure that US Customs Officers are allowed on "foreign" soil.

It is done by US Customs officers at select Canadian airports. At Canadian airports that don't have US Customs, then you must be flying into an airport in the US that has customs facilities.

Plus, few passengers get off a plane while it is in flight, but I guess a passenger (desperate) could jump off a train.

In the case of the train, one doesn't even need to jump off, the train makes stops along the way. And therein lies one of the bigger problems for putting agents on the train. It would probably work southbound on the Adirondack, where there is only one stop between Montreal and the border. However, the northbound Adirondack makes many station stops along the way on the US side, including the last one just minutes before crossing the border. They probably could do the Canadian Customes after crossing, and just screen those getting off at the first stop first, and then continue with those headed for Montreal. And if a talked about change comes about, which would route the Adirondack into a different station in Montreal, then it is very likely that Customes would shift to that station in Montreal, much like happens in Vancouver with the Cascades service.

The Maple Leaf is a bigger problem. It has stops on either side of the bridge over the river and border. There really is no effective way to screen people before crossing the border and keep them seperated from those unscreened. And there is no time to do the screening even with the slow 10MPH speed limit across the bridge. So the only practical solution is the one currently in use.

As of June 1, 2009, things tightened up quite a bit between Canada and the US. One actually now needs a Passport (or one of those new Passport cards).

Actually there are more options that just those two. Any of the following will work on a land/sea crossing:

• Passport
  
• Passport card
  
• Trusted Traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST)
  
• Enhanced driver's license
  
• Merchant Mariner document
  
• Military ID combined with a copy of military orders
  
• Form I-872, American Indian Card
  
• Amish and Mennonite Old Order only:
  - copy of birth certificate, and
  - signed copy of IRS form 4029, application for exemption from Social Security and Medicare taxes and waiver of benefits.
  

If you're flying, then only a passport works.

 

[PRR 60]

...I have flown from most of the major Canadian airports back to the US. US customs and immigration are at those Canadian airports and you clear there. They then "lock" you in a secure area and even though you may be in Toronto or Montreal, you are actually on US soil. When you land in the US, no customs, etc, to clear. It works very well.

You not technically on US soil. Even after you pass through US CBP, as long as you are in Canada you are subject to Canadian law. The US agents are only authorized to screen USA entry, but have no law enforcement power. So, if you rough-up the barista at the post-clearance Starbucks because your latte was cold, you will be tried in Canada under Canadian law even though you technically passed into the USA. Likewise, if the Mounties are after you for stealing a six-pack of Molsons, they can drag you out of the pre-cleared area at the Canadian airport with no extradition complications.

I agree. Preclearance works great.

 

[Konrad]

...I have flown from most of the major Canadian airports back to the US. US customs and immigration are at those Canadian airports and you clear there. They then "lock" you in a secure area and even though you may be in Toronto or Montreal, you are actually on US soil. When you land in the US, no customs, etc, to clear. It works very well.

You not technically on US soil. Even after you pass through US CBP, as long as you are in Canada you are subject to Canadian law. The US agents are only authorized to screen USA entry, but have no law enforcement power. So, if you rough-up the barista at the post-clearance Starbucks because your latte was cold, you will be tried in Canada under Canadian law even though you technically passed into the USA. Likewise, if the Mounties are after you for stealing a six-pack of Molsons, they can drag you out of the pre-cleared area at the Canadian airport with no extradition complications.

I agree. Preclearance works great.

Strange that one can travel throughout Western Europe and use the same currency and rarely show your passport, except at initial entry and final departure, but the US and Canada can't get their act together.

And look at the history - 200 years of peaceful co-operation versus centuries of warfare.

 

[GG-1]

I agree. Preclearance works great.

Aloha

When I worked on the Ice Capades tour, we traveled by rail with the scenery. What our show did was pay for 2 customs inspectors to be present at the load out of the departing city and load in of the Arrival city. Same in both directions. Each inspector placed a seal on each car as they were loaded, and inspected, and cut the seal, as they were unloaded. We carried a dead pigeon in a freezer for a week to prove it was not sold in Canada. the props people could not find a vet that would provide a death certificate. Remember the show with the birds that flew around the arena?

 

[ruudkeulers]

As we'll be taking the Maple Leaf in September from NYP to Niagara Falls (Canadian side) I'm keeping a close watch on the differences in delay between NFL and NFS, just because we were warned about possible long custom delays at the border. In which case we'd better detrain on the US-site of course. But so far, according to Amtrak Train Status History, in the past weeks there were no extraordinary delays between the two stations. If there has been a delay arriving in NFS, it was already there arriving in NFL.

 

[NS VIA FAN]

I wonder how Canadian Customs use to handle passengers that traveled between Detroit and New York?

 

[PRR 60]

I wonder how Canadian Customs use to handle passengers that traveled between Detroit and New York?

I think the train was in essence "sealed" for the passage though Ontario between Buffalo and Detroit. I know the reverse was true. VIA used to have one of the Montreal to Halifax trains pass through northern Maine between Quebec and New Brunswick. No one and no baggage or freight was permitted on or off the train while it was in the USA, so there was no customs or immigration clearance required. It just rolled through.

 

[NS VIA FAN]

VIA used to have one of the Montreal to Halifax trains pass through northern Maine between Quebec and New Brunswick. No one and no baggage or freight was permitted on or off the train while it was in the USA, so there was no customs or immigration clearance required. It just rolled through.

No, VIA’s “Atlantic” stopped at six or seven stations in Maine. Local passengers were carried between stations in Maine and between Maine and Canada. There were different procedures over the years for handling these passengers. Coach passengers were checked and the sleeping car passengers just left alone. Then everyone was checked for a few years. Then in the final couple of years of operation (last run was in Dec. 1994) tags were placed on doors and US Customs/INS rode the train and only checked those getting off in Maine. US passengers were cleared by Canadian Customs in Magentic or McAdam.

 

[NS VIA FAN]

I think the train was in essence "sealed" for the passage though Ontario between Buffalo and Detroit

I rode Amtrak’s Empire State Express from Detroit to Fort Erie, ON back in the late 1970s. There was a separate coach for Canadian Passengers. I rode in this car and was cleared by Canadian Customs in Windsor but I don’t believe they interviewed any US passengers who were “just passing through” (train was in Canada for about 250 miles)

Amtrak handled local passengers between stations in Canada who rode in this coach. You could not go into the rest of the train and the snack-bar attendant would come back to take orders. Passengers boarding in Canada were checked by US Customs in Detroit or Buffalo. (or Niagara Falls when the train was later re-routed to that line)

Don’t know how New York Central and Penn Central trains were handled but I imagine it was similar. There were multiple trains a day and hundreds of passengers…..most probably not even realizing they were in Canada.

 

[wayman]

I think the train was in essence "sealed" for the passage though Ontario between Buffalo and Detroit

I rode Amtrak’s Empire State Express from Detroit to Fort Erie, ON back in the late 1970s. There was a separate coach for Canadian Passengers. I rode in this car and was cleared by Canadian Customs in Windsor but I don’t believe they interviewed any US passengers who were “just passing through” (train was in Canada for about 250 miles)

Amtrak handled local passengers between stations in Canada who rode in this coach. You could not go into the rest of the train and the snack-bar attendant would come back to take orders. Passengers boarding in Canada were checked by US Customs in Detroit or Buffalo. (or Niagara Falls when the train was later re-routed to that line)

Don’t know how New York Central and Penn Central trains were handled but I imagine it was similar. There were multiple trains a day and hundreds of passengers…..most probably not even realizing they were in Canada.

Ten years ago I drove across Ontario from Niagara to Detroit. At the Niagara border, the Canadian entry guard upon hearing my reason for entry was "to drive to Detroit" said something like "ok, but please feel free to stop and see stuff along the way!". And at the Detroit border, the American entry guard upon hearing my only reason for having been in Canada was "it was shorter than driving around Lake Erie" just sort of sighed and waved me through, as if that was what 95% of Americans with non-Michigan license plates told him.

But given my hassle with US entry guards upon re-entering the US from Canada last summer, I imagine nothing is that simple any more, even for US citizens. (And this was well before the new document requirements (and even so, I gave them my passport anyhow)--they just didn't like my reasons for having visited Canada! )

 

[PRR 60]

VIA used to have one of the Montreal to Halifax trains pass through northern Maine between Quebec and New Brunswick. No one and no baggage or freight was permitted on or off the train while it was in the USA, so there was no customs or immigration clearance required. It just rolled through.

No, VIA’s “Atlantic” stopped at six or seven stations in Maine. Local passengers were carried between stations in Maine and between Maine and Canada. There were different procedures over the years for handling these passengers. Coach passengers were checked and the sleeping car passengers just left alone. Then everyone was checked for a few years. Then in the final couple of years of operation (last run was in Dec. 1994) tags were placed on doors and US Customs/INS rode the train and only checked those getting off in Maine. US passengers were cleared by Canadian Customs in Magentic or McAdam.

Thanks for the clarification. I was always under the impression that the Atlantic was a rail version of a "fly over". The Customs and Immigration issues with a few stops in Maine must have been interesting. In today's environment, it would even be more interesting.

 

[edding]

...I have flown from most of the major Canadian airports back to the US. US customs and immigration are at those Canadian airports and you clear there. They then "lock" you in a secure area and even though you may be in Toronto or Montreal, you are actually on US soil. When you land in the US, no customs, etc, to clear. It works very well.

You not technically on US soil. Even after you pass through US CBP, as long as you are in Canada you are subject to Canadian law. The US agents are only authorized to screen USA entry, but have no law enforcement power. So, if you rough-up the barista at the post-clearance Starbucks because your latte was cold, you will be tried in Canada under Canadian law even though you technically passed into the USA. Likewise, if the Mounties are after you for stealing a six-pack of Molsons, they can drag you out of the pre-cleared area at the Canadian airport with no extradition complications.

I agree. Preclearance works great.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned one fun scenic and not overly expensive way to get to Vancouver from Seattle with little customs problem. Take the ferry to Victoria from Seattle and then get to Vancouver or wherever however you like. The customs pre-clearance is very much like at the airports. From my recollection it was painless and relatively efficient. The ferry in particular that I remember is the one that leaves from downtown Seattle. I have taken the others with a car and don't remember much problem either. It's an option I would recommend( there's even train service on Victoria Island that I've yet to take).

Ed

 

[Murjax]

I think the train was in essence "sealed" for the passage though Ontario between Buffalo and Detroit

I rode Amtrak’s Empire State Express from Detroit to Fort Erie, ON back in the late 1970s. There was a separate coach for Canadian Passengers. I rode in this car and was cleared by Canadian Customs in Windsor but I don’t believe they interviewed any US passengers who were “just passing through” (train was in Canada for about 250 miles)

Amtrak handled local passengers between stations in Canada who rode in this coach. You could not go into the rest of the train and the snack-bar attendant would come back to take orders. Passengers boarding in Canada were checked by US Customs in Detroit or Buffalo. (or Niagara Falls when the train was later re-routed to that line)

Don’t know how New York Central and Penn Central trains were handled but I imagine it was similar. There were multiple trains a day and hundreds of passengers…..most probably not even realizing they were in Canada.

I don't see why something like this couldn't work today. Assign a few coaches for Canadian bound passengers and others for American. Maybe you can even have a Customs agent on board the train between the terminal and the border, clearing passengers as the board. At the border, another agent can climb aboard and check everyone again. If there are too many passengers getting off in that country, let the train go while the agent checks passengers, starting with those getting off first.

 

[AlanB]

As we'll be taking the Maple Leaf in September from NYP to Niagara Falls (Canadian side) I'm keeping a close watch on the differences in delay between NFL and NFS, just because we were warned about possible long custom delays at the border. In which case we'd better detrain on the US-site of course. But so far, according to Amtrak Train Status History, in the past weeks there were no extraordinary delays between the two stations. If there has been a delay arriving in NFS, it was already there arriving in NFL.

Canadian customes takes place at the NFS stop, not before it. So the arrival times at NFS would have the same delay as the times at NFL. Only the departure times from NFS would be an indication of a customes delay.

 

[caravanman]

When At Niagra Falls (USA) a few years ago, we just strolled across the rainbow bridge on foot into Canada, and the same coming back. All we had to declare was a small bottle of maple syrup on the way back.. Our UK passports seemed to work fine!

Ed B)*

* Hey.. where is my sunshade smiley? just hit B) and it shows up.. not today?

 

[jis]

I don't see why something like this couldn't work today. Assign a few coaches for Canadian bound passengers and others for American. Maybe you can even have a Customs agent on board the train between the terminal and the border, clearing passengers as the board. At the border, another agent can climb aboard and check everyone again. If there are too many passengers getting off in that country, let the train go while the agent checks passengers, starting with those getting off first.

Or do what the Russians/Finns do with the Moscow - Helsinki Leo Tolstoy. Just take a bunch of carriages that constitute the "domestic" part of the train off at the border station (Vyborg) and just do the checking on the portion that crosses the border, and then of course the Finns add on their domestic portion of the train at the border station (Vanaikkala) and off they go. And boy even now in the post Soviet days, the Russians do a real thorough exit inspection of the train and its passengers. But still they seem to be faster clearing a 10 car train than our CBP experts with two cars worth of passengers.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I agree. Preclearance works great.

I still don't understand how/why preclearance at the departing point, is faster than post-clearance at the arrival point. To me, it seems that the same about of screening and searching would be needed either way.

 

[AlanB]

Ed B)*
* Hey.. where is my sunshade smiley? just hit B) and it shows up.. not today?

Since so many people use A) B) C) D) etc. to make points, and the B) always gets turned into a smilie instead, I changed the coding for that smiley.