Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[neroden]

1 cab and 1 cafe for use as new equipment, 4 cafes and 2 cabs to replace existing equipment. The two replacement cabs and two of the cafes are going on the Surfliner, the new capacity cab and cafe, plus two replacement cafes, go to Oakland for San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor.

OK, this still doesn't make sense to me.

* The Pacific Surfliner has one single-level trainset, so that accounts for one replacement cab and one replacement cafe.

* I would expect two cabs and two cafes to be needed to replace the Comet Ibs on the San Joaquin.

So that doesn't add up at all; I'd expect that they'd need 3 replacement cabs and 3 replacement cafes, and that two of the cabs would have to go to Oakland...

...what are all the extra cafes replacing, anyway? As far as I know, California isn't disposing of any bilevel cafes or cabs, and the Superliners borrowed from Amtrak are all coaches. Is California displacing some of the "California Car" cafes with the upper-level food service, which are inefficiently used?

If there's an excess of cab cars, I would suspect it's probably for extra spare on hand reasons such as you'd see with locomotives.

Well, at least that makes sense!

 

[Paulus]

Replacing Amtrak owned equipment with state owned.

 

[jis]

I wonder where Amtrak plans to deploy the equipment other than the 7 Superliners, thus released.

Looks like the following are Amtrak owned according to http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-pacsurfnames.shtml:

08 Business Class

15 Coaches

08 Cafe

08 Cab (the 9th car 6902, not clear what happened to it)

 

[rickycourtney]

1 cab and 1 cafe for use as new equipment, 4 cafes and 2 cabs to replace existing equipment. The two replacement cabs and two of the cafes are going on the Surfliner, the new capacity cab and cafe, plus two replacement cafes, go to Oakland for San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor.

OK, this still doesn't make sense to me.
* The Pacific Surfliner has one single-level trainset, so that accounts for one replacement cab and one replacement cafe.

* I would expect two cabs and two cafes to be needed to replace the Comet Ibs on the San Joaquin.

So that doesn't add up at all; I'd expect that they'd need 3 replacement cabs and 3 replacement cafes, and that two of the cabs would have to go to Oakland...

...what are all the extra cafes replacing, anyway? As far as I know, California isn't disposing of any bilevel cafes or cabs, and the Superliners borrowed from Amtrak are all coaches. Is California displacing some of the "California Car" cafes with the upper-level food service, which are inefficiently used?

The Comet car trainsets replaced bi-level trainsets on a one-for-one basis. The cab cars for those trainsets are still around (probably being used as as extra coaches). But the 2 cafe cars we're reassigned to the Capitol Corridor to replace the 2 Superliner Snack coaches that Caltrans had been leasing. But when the San Joaquin returns to using all bi-level equipment, they will need those cafe cars back.

The full length cafe cars will likely remain on the San Joaquin for the foreseeable future. It's a long run (5-6 hours) and therefore it makes since to offer a larger dining/lounge space.

 

[afigg]

Using the trickery of web coding, is this the image you're talking about? (I can't actually read the article).

Yes, that is the photo of the cafe car mock-up interior in the Train mag news wire report. Not a particularly informative photo, but it shows that progress in being made on refining the design and configuration of the bi-levels.

 

[rickycourtney]

I wonder where Amtrak plans to deploy the equipment other than the 7 Superliners, thus released.

Looks like the following are Amtrak owned according to http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-pacsurfnames.shtml:

08 Business Class

15 Coaches

08 Cafe

08 Cab (the 9th car 6902, not clear what happened to it)

I don't expect the "Amtrak owned" Surfliner trainsets to be released back to the national system anytime soon (if ever).

 

[jis]

Are those leased from Amtrak at present, just like the 7 Superliners, but presumably on different terms?

I guess historically the San Diegans were part of the national system and that is why Amtrak owns the original bunch that was acquired in 2000 for that service? Then when California took it over, presumably some lease arrangement was put in place. That would be similar to what happened in New York State this year I suppose, as part of the conversion of the Empire Service to 209 compliance.

 

[roadman3313]

Extra cab cars are currently being used on the Capitol Corridor to add bike capacity currently. The addition of bike capacity is a priority for the Capitol Corridor as well as the increase of bike lockers at stations. I'm riding in one of the Superliner's assigned to the Capitol Corridor and it does have the café (snack space) on the lower level. 4 car trains tend to have the Surfliner Café or Superliner Coach-Snack car. 5 car trains tend to have the upstairs California Café car. San Joaquins will generally run with the 5 car sets, Capitol Corridor are a mix of 4 and 5 car sets. Both 4 and 5 car train sets should have 4 cars worth of upstairs coach seating.

The Comet cars are back to the 712/717 rotation on the San Joaquin, although the train has been delayed the last two days out of Oakland due to "late arrival of train set"d (according to the electronic display boards). This train set comes out of the yard so it appears to be an issue dispatching out of the yard to Oakland (about 10 minutes yesterday, just over 50 minutes today).

 

[rickycourtney]

Are those leased from Amtrak at present, just like the 7 Superliners, but presumably on different terms?

I guess historically the San Diegans were part of the national system and that is why Amtrak owns the original bunch that was acquired in 2000 for that service? Then when California took it over, presumably some lease arrangement was put in place. That would be similar to what happened in New York State this year I suppose, as part of the conversion of the Empire Service to 209 compliance.

Despite asking around for months now, I don't know the answer to that question.
California may have, at some point, picked up some level of ownership on the Surfliner cars that Amtrak purchased. But thanks to the PRIIA rules, if they don't fully own them, they would be paying Amtrak something to lease them (and I would expect the state would eventually try to buy them from Amtrak).

 

[rickycourtney]

Extra cab cars are currently being used on the Capitol Corridor to add bike capacity currently. The addition of bike capacity is a priority for the Capitol Corridor as well as the increase of bike lockers at stations. I'm riding in one of the Superliner's assigned to the Capitol Corridor and it does have the café (snack space) on the lower level. 4 car trains tend to have the Surfliner Café or Superliner Coach-Snack car. 5 car trains tend to have the upstairs California Café car. San Joaquins will generally run with the 5 car sets, Capitol Corridor are a mix of 4 and 5 car sets. Both 4 and 5 car train sets should have 4 cars worth of upstairs coach seating.

The Comet cars are back to the 712/717 rotation on the San Joaquin, although the train has been delayed the last two days out of Oakland due to "late arrival of train set"d (according to the electronic display boards). This train set comes out of the yard so it appears to be an issue dispatching out of the yard to Oakland (about 10 minutes yesterday, just over 50 minutes today).

My previous point still stands. One of the stated goals of the Comet car plan was to reassign two cafe cars from the San Joaquin to the Capitol Corridor so that the lease on the snack coaches could be terminated. Not sure why it hasn't been done yet.
I'm very curious to see how the delivery of these new cars will work. I assume that California will get the first cars since the shops in Los Angeles and Oakland are more experienced than Chicago when it comes to working with cars like these.

There's also a bit of a pissing match between Southern and Northern California about who gets their cars first. The folks that run the San Joaquin are asking the state to make it a top priority to restore all bi-level trainsets to the route. Of course the Pacific Surfliner has had single-level equipment longer.

 

[afigg]

I'm very curious to see how the delivery of these new cars will work. I assume that California will get the first cars since the shops in Los Angeles and Oakland are more experienced than Chicago when it comes to working with cars like these.

However the manufacturing plant is in Illinois, so initial testing in Chicago would be closer to the plant and allow the cars to easily be sent back for fixes and design changes. I expect the states and the FRA have worked out the deployment sequence and plans for the test cars and first batch of deliverable cars to the states. Then again, maybe not.

 

[jis]

Are those leased from Amtrak at present, just like the 7 Superliners, but presumably on different terms?

I guess historically the San Diegans were part of the national system and that is why Amtrak owns the original bunch that was acquired in 2000 for that service? Then when California took it over, presumably some lease arrangement was put in place. That would be similar to what happened in New York State this year I suppose, as part of the conversion of the Empire Service to 209 compliance.

Despite asking around for months now, I don't know the answer to that question.
California may have, at some point, picked up some level of ownership on the Surfliner cars that Amtrak purchased. But thanks to the PRIIA rules, if they don't fully own them, they would be paying Amtrak something to lease them (and I would expect the state would eventually try to buy them from Amtrak).

So the bottom line is that other than the replacement for the 7 Superliners, any additional cars are all additional capacity to displace single levels and then just additional capacity. The Amtrak owned Surfliner equipment is not being replaces as Paulus suggested a few posts back?

 

[Paulus]

Second to last page here gives types and distribution for CA as currently planned, at least as of May.

 

[jis]

Interesting.... Still not clear though that any of the Amtrak owned Surfliner equipment will be replaced. Kind of hard to figure that out without spending considerably more time on it. Thanks for the details anyway.

 

[crew]

I'm very curious to see how the delivery of these new cars will work. I assume that California will get the first cars since the shops in Los Angeles and Oakland are more experienced than Chicago when it comes to working with cars like these.

However the manufacturing plant is in Illinois, so initial testing in Chicago would be closer to the plant and allow the cars to easily be sent back for fixes and design changes. I expect the states and the FRA have worked out the deployment sequence and plans for the test cars and first batch of deliverable cars to the states. Then again, maybe not.

I have never understood the need to "reinvent the wheel", or act as if they are, every time some new cars are ordered, ESPECIALLY when their design is based on that of existing, proven equipment!

 

[jis]

Someone who is not an Engineer (not of the train driving kind but the building kind) by training, will never understand the need for testing and commissioning of artifacts no matter how well known the design that it is based on is. It is actually quite astounding how many things can go wrong in how many unexpected ways even with the best laid out design and plan.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Second to last page here gives types and distribution for CA as currently planned, at least as of May.

Figures in this report suggest that California could be the last to get the new cars.

Final delivery scheduled for June 2018. Oops. Stimulus projects must be completed

by Sept 2017 iirc. The Midwestern states are getting almost all their money from

Stimulus funds (with only a sliver from HSIPR funds, which have a flexible deadline).

They will be up against a hard deadline. California is using more HSIPR funds

AND state Prop 1B bond money, so Cali can keep spending after Stimulus funding

goes the way of Cincerella's coach.

Here's a handy timeline from that report (Thanks, Paulus):

Final design review, April 2014

Completion of first car shell, Dec 2014.

Assembly of first pilot car, July 2015.

Pilot car testing, July 2015-Jan 2016

Pilot train acceptance, May 2016.

The plan is to build them at the rate of 6 per month.

(Deadline to spend stimulus funds, Sept 2017.)

Final delivery, June 2018.

(This date is before adding in the pending option order,

with 45 more cars at 6 per month, add another half year,

early 2019 before all the older Amtrak cars will be

released to serve back East.)

 

[rickycourtney]

Interesting.... Still not clear though that any of the Amtrak owned Surfliner equipment will be replaced. Kind of hard to figure that out without spending considerably more time on it. Thanks for the details anyway.

It won't be. The equipment going away will be the single level trainsets and the extra Superliner cars being leased from Amtrak's national fleet.

 

[rickycourtney]

Second to last page here gives types and distribution for CA as currently planned, at least as of May.

Figures in this report suggest that California could be the last to get the new cars.Final delivery scheduled for June 2018. Oops. Stimulus projects must be completed

by Sept 2017 iirc. The Midwestern states are getting almost all their money from

Stimulus funds (with only a sliver from HSIPR funds, which have a flexible deadline).

They will be up against a hard deadline. California is using more HSIPR funds

AND state Prop 1B bond money, so Cali can keep spending after Stimulus funding

goes the way of Cincerella's coach.

Here's a handy timeline from that report (Thanks, Paulus):

Final design review, April 2014

Completion of first car shell, Dec 2014.

Assembly of first pilot car, July 2015.

Pilot car testing, July 2015-Jan 2016

Pilot train acceptance, May 2016.

The plan is to build them at the rate of 6 per month.

(Deadline to spend stimulus funds, Sept 2017.)

Final delivery, June 2018.

(This date is before adding in the pending option order,

with 45 more cars at 6 per month, add another half year,

early 2019 before all the older Amtrak cars will be

released to serve back East.)

This is logical, but a real bummer for California.

 

[jis]

How much of this order is paid for by stimulus funds and how much by other funds?

 

[neroden]

The Comet car trainsets replaced bi-level trainsets on a one-for-one basis. The cab cars for those trainsets are still around (probably being used as as extra coaches). But the 2 cafe cars we're reassigned to the Capitol Corridor to replace the 2 Superliner Snack coaches that Caltrans had been leasing.

Aha. This is the missing piece of information. Thanks. I didn't know Caltrans was leasing any Superliners in food-service configurations, even partial food-service configurations.
Actually, I didn't know there WERE any Superliners in a "snack coach" configuration; are these part of the 7 wreck-rebuilt Superliners leased by California? If so, they'll have to be reconfigured prior to use on the national system, since there's no role for a "snack coach" on the western long-distance trains.

 

[neroden]

(This date is before adding in the pending option order,

with 45 more cars at 6 per month, add another half year,

early 2019 before all the older Amtrak cars will be

released to serve back East.)

Most of the option order is also for the Midwest. With almost all the Midwest money coming from stimulus funding, it's going to be a rush to get them all produced by December 2017. California's only getting 53 cars. At this point, I think we can expect ALL the Midwest cars to be delivered before ANY of the California cars are. Which is probably just as well.

Regarding something else Jis said: Putting the Horizons on overnight trains without modifying them would be a terrible idea, since some crews will be idiots and will put overnight passengers in them, and this will drive away repeat business. Amtrak needs to at least replace the unpopular lighting; that'll pay for itself in a couple of years through reduced energy/fuel costs. Perhaps the most logical thing to do would be to make minimal reconfigurations and then make the Horizons the core fleet for the "mid-length" eastern trains like the Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, Palmetto, Adirondack, Vermonter, and Maple Leaf.

 

[neroden]

California may have, at some point, picked up some level of ownership on the Surfliner cars that Amtrak purchased. But thanks to the PRIIA rules, if they don't fully own them, they would be paying Amtrak something to lease them (and I would expect the state would eventually try to buy them from Amtrak).

I've been watching the financial reports carefully. Amtrak's Surfliners were leased from some bank (you know, as usual), and the early buyout option or lease termination (not sure which) came up this year. Amtrak exercised almost all of its buyout options this year with a commercial line of credit. I can't be sure, but it looks from making some calculations as if Amtrak did not exercise the Surfliner buyout options along with the rest; the numbers look right if Amtrak exercise everything but the Surfliner options. This makes me suspicious that Amtrak may have instead managed to convince California to buy out the leases. This is sheer hypothesis, and I haven't managed to find any record of any purchase on the California end.

 

[PerRock]

The Comet car trainsets replaced bi-level trainsets on a one-for-one basis. The cab cars for those trainsets are still around (probably being used as as extra coaches). But the 2 cafe cars we're reassigned to the Capitol Corridor to replace the 2 Superliner Snack coaches that Caltrans had been leasing.

Aha. This is the missing piece of information. Thanks. I didn't know Caltrans was leasing any Superliners in food-service configurations, even partial food-service configurations.
Actually, I didn't know there WERE any Superliners in a "snack coach" configuration; are these part of the 7 wreck-rebuilt Superliners leased by California? If so, they'll have to be reconfigured prior to use on the national system, since there's no role for a "snack coach" on the western long-distance trains.

The Pere Marquette here in MI uses a Snack Coach Superliner, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Heartland Flyer uses one as well. They are numbered in the 35000-35010 range, although I'm uncertain if there are actually 10 out there.

peter

 

[Paulus]

I've been watching the financial reports carefully. Amtrak's Surfliners were leased from some bank (you know, as usual), and the early buyout option or lease termination (not sure which) came up this year. Amtrak exercised almost all of its buyout options this year with a commercial line of credit. I can't be sure, but it looks from making some calculations as if Amtrak did not exercise the Surfliner buyout options along with the rest; the numbers look right if Amtrak exercise everything but the Surfliner options. This makes me suspicious that Amtrak may have instead managed to convince California to buy out the leases. This is sheer hypothesis, and I haven't managed to find any record of any purchase on the California end.

I haven't seen anything to say that California has; they may have left it open because of negotiations with the state over doing so however.